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ZYBAK

Crowfall Goes Pay to Win? VIP Skill Tree Changes and PTW Discussion

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I've been entertaining out of town guests and finally have a second to catch my breath and catch up on the news.

First TY Zyback for the distilled info.

Second, I think I like these changes.

Third, I worry about scripts and macros that simply automate the non-VIP training, thereby circumventing this non-circumvention method.

I'll need to chew on it more I think.

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56 minutes ago, jetah said:

It's amazing how the definition of P2W has changed for many people. It went from a complete paywall that needed to be crossed to have any chance to be competitive to just about 'any payment is P2W'.  And for record, I'm not watching the video. I'm sure I could have read a text version in less than three minutes.

Exactly.

It's a stupid term in usage. People should use their words and be specific if they want to be taken seriously.

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1 minute ago, coolwaters said:

I've been entertaining out of town guests and finally have a second to catch my breath and catch up on the news.

First TY Zyback for the distilled info.

Second, I think I like these changes.

Third, I worry about scripts and macros that simply automate the non-VIP training, thereby circumventing this non-circumvention method.

I'll need to chew on it more I think.

or good old remote desktop connecting from mobile :)

Edited by Tinnis

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5 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

Third, I worry about scripts and macros that simply automate the non-VIP training, thereby circumventing this non-circumvention method.

Takes about 3 minutes to set up a remote system from your phone.  Im more then certain a tech sauvy guy could whip up a program to autoclick the certain locations at the right time to queue skills up automatically. 

 

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Just now, SirGeorge said:

Takes about 3 minutes to set up a remote system from your phone.  Im more then certain a tech sauvy guy could whip up a program to autoclick the certain locations at the right time to queue skills up automatically. 

 

yea i did remote desktop last christmas when travelling away :)

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Tk33vhh_eZtGnCYFsu1yiMjaosajfBQdssQcizJT79k/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=5000&slide=id.p13


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Just now, SirGeorge said:

Takes about 3 minutes to set up a remote system from your phone.  Im more then certain a tech sauvy guy could whip up a program to autoclick the certain locations at the right time to queue skills up automatically. 

 

That would truly suck.

It does worry me. The same feeling I had from aim-bots and skilling macros in Darkfall.

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2 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

That would truly suck.

It does worry me. The same feeling I had from aim-bots and skilling macros in Darkfall.

We all know what happened there, Hackers destroyed the game.

Edited by Atome

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1 hour ago, Kreigon said:

The only good thing is that multiaccounting is busted with the current changes of the skill queueing system but was this worth it ? I am not sure?

I wouldn't say that multi-account is busted, it might be slowed down but surely not busted.  If anything this puts the players willing to pay at even more of an advantage, because what is $60 a month for 4 accounts compared to $15 a month for 1 account?  If someone can afford $15 then $60 shouldn't be a problem.  I'm speaking for me personally that I will still have 4 VIP accounts, I'm on the fence about my last 2.

While I don't fault ACE for seeing the business benefit to drive more players toward "needing" VIP, I think they could have done it in a different manner than the passive training.  I didn't even watch the video; however this is issue is bigger than people want to recocgize.  The fact that is has gotten so much attention from either side of the argument shows that the issue could be a dividing line for the community.


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1 minute ago, Teufel said:

The fact that is has gotten so much attention from either side of the argument shows that the issue could be a dividing line for the community.

as were the previous dozens of heated threads on multi-account use :)

Edited by Tinnis

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Just now, Tinnis said:

as were the previous dozens of heated threads on multi-account use :)

This isn't related to multi-account use for me though.  It's about the now outdated FAQ and saying that buy once to play gave you passive training.  Now they want to block that passive training behind a barrier.  Even for a single account player it could get tedious to the point they just quit; sure ACE got the purchase money for the game, but they won't be making anymore from VIP.


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44 minutes ago, Teufel said:

This isn't related to multi-account use for me though.  It's about the now outdated FAQ and saying that buy once to play gave you passive training.  Now they want to block that passive training behind a barrier.  Even for a single account player it could get tedious to the point they just quit; sure ACE got the purchase money for the game, but they won't be making anymore from VIP.

Are you saying passive training doesn't exist until you have VIP? I'm pretty sure passive training still exist without VIP.

There's a problem when majority of your community say 'VIP' isn't worth it when you can buy X accounts instead.  So there has to be a change to VIP to make it desireable to have. This just happened in Secret World Legends, many people didn't believe Patron (their VIP) was worth it so the company added more benefits to it to specifically tempt those that didn't want to getting it.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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If you think that a 5% advantage is P2W then I suggest you dont play things like poker or are involved in your own financial matters.  

b0266c83ebaf77fc912a7fdebedec779--samura


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27 minutes ago, jetah said:

Are you saying passive training doesn't exist until you have VIP? I'm pretty sure passive training still exist without VIP.

There's a problem when majority of your community say 'VIP' isn't worth it when you can buy X accounts instead.  So there has to be a change to VIP to make it desireable to have. This just happened in Secret World Legends, many people didn't believe Patron (their VIP) was worth it so the company added more benefits to it to specifically tempt those that didn't want to getting it.

No it's still technically passive training, but I would argue that changing skills every 2/4/6 hours could be seen as active participation.  The thing about passive training that's so appealing is I didn't have to worry about changing skills while at work.  Out of a 24hr day, 10hours (at 5 days a week) is spent away from home (communte/work).  Tinnis's break down of time didn't inlcude any kind of commute.

It feels like everyone is jumping on the alt account or VIP issue instead of actually looking at the passive training and skill queue issue that is the true problem.  Queuing of skills in the proposed form is what I'm against.  It was suggested in another thread to give every player the ability to queue through 1 skill (5 pips), and then give VIP the ability to queue a second skill.  This is a great solution that allows added flexibility to VIP, while not making it a micro management issue for non-VIP.


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20 minutes ago, Teufel said:

No it's still technically passive training, but I would argue that changing skills every 2/4/6 hours could be seen as active participation.  The thing about passive training that's so appealing is I didn't have to worry about changing skills while at work.  Out of a 24hr day, 10hours (at 5 days a week) is spent away from home (communte/work).  Tinnis's break down of time didn't inlcude any kind of commute.

It feels like everyone is jumping on the alt account or VIP issue instead of actually looking at the passive training and skill queue issue that is the true problem.  Queuing of skills in the proposed form is what I'm against.  It was suggested in another thread to give every player the ability to queue through 1 skill (5 pips), and then give VIP the ability to queue a second skill.  This is a great solution that allows added flexibility to VIP, while not making it a micro management issue for non-VIP.

Let me tell you what I did in Eve Online, a game that Crowfall has borrowed so much from, when I started playing 10 years ago. This was a time before any skill queue! I set short skills while I was playing, when I was going to log off I made a decision to find a skill that would finish at or just before I woke up or set a multi-day skill that would run while I was sleeping and then continued while working and the commute back.  Yes there were some times in the first week that sucked, sometimes I would wake up at 3am to swap a skill. Most of the time I'd forget and would swap it after work because I forgot to start a skill when I woke up.

I only mentioned alt accounts because people have already mentioned in numerous post before that VIP would never be worth the cost, ever. Spending 60$ per account and having it for the life of the game is cheaper than 15$ per month. ACE has to find a way to make VIP appealing or they'd only get box cost income and not ongoing income (excluding any shop purchases of course).


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While I like most of the video you're falling into the same trap you're somewhat complaining about, you're assuming things about the people on the other side of an argument to justify your viewpoint instead of letting the arguments justify themselves. From what I remember reading no one was really arguing about the alt account stuff, almost everyone agrees it's an okay to good side effect, but your assuming that's really why everyone is arguing to validate the viewpoint, when it's blatantly not true for at least some portion of the people arguing against it. I personally trying to lock out alts it's silly cause the sort of people that want to use lots of accounts are usually dedicated enough to overcome roadblocks. Short of somehow locking a person to a single account everything you do to stop them will end up impacting your other players negatively in some way, but whatever I don't think it matters much at the moment and isn't the core of the discussion, at least for me. I'm not going past 2-3 accounts and I'm a crazy die-hard, none of this will impact me. But it will impact the more casual crowd, and we need them to buffer the game and make sure it survives.

Sadly, this is an internet forum and we're unlikely to get a civil discussion going back and forth that eventually reaches a conclusion or alleviates someones concerns. It's too hard to focus and some people just don't care to reach that point and rather throw insults instead, so we mostly end up talking past each other. Oh well.

On the topic of P2W, like most things the definition changes from person to person and over time, but I think the core premise is the same 'cash for some form of advantage'. This VIP/non-VIP is a lesser form of it. The core goal of the system is to create a training disparity and if there is a disparity that paying cash helps negate, then you're threading the P2W line. If the goal of the system is not to create a training disparity then what is the goal of the system?

 


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Good video; I agree with pretty much all of it.  However, I would add that I do not believe that VIP will do away with the sparkle pony.  I fall just short of guaranteeing that ACE will have some sparkle ponies of their own.  

 


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