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ZYBAK

Crowfall Goes Pay to Win? VIP Skill Tree Changes and PTW Discussion

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21 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

....

Just to add a bit of perspective into those examples, GW2 and EVE are F2P whereas ESO and Albion are B2P.

EVE and GW2 both seem to have a F2P version of the game that is an incomplete "free trial" kind of thing.  It's not the full game, you are severely limited. Can't really do everything sub players can. 

ESO is probably the best optional sub model I've ever seen. The 10% xp and gold boost is pretty minimal, specially considering reaching level cap isn't that hard and you can craft or acquire xp boost items in game anyways. Also in ESO you don't have access to DLC as a B2P (unless you purchase them separetely), but there is absolutely nothing gated behind DLC in terms of gear, levels of power. So a sub player and a B2P player in pvp (or competitive pve) are always on equal terms. 

Albion I never played and have no clue about it. But from what you showed me that sub advantage seems pretty extreme lol. 

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Either ACE drops the VIP and sell more cosmetics and account services or they make VIP great enough that people want it or they sell expansions and new classes as DLC.

VIP can be traded in game because it's a physical item so everyone has access to it. I remember the first week playing Eve Online and it sucked with skill training but after that week it allowed me to train around my schedule. Eve's training at the very beginning was short 10-30m and 1h skills, at least CF is starting with multi-day skills. Skill training will be about time management.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

That's a really good point. You could probably point to dozens or hundreds of other games that give direct XP improvement gains for paying into the sub.

Since the goal of passive was to allow players to keep up "while they sleep and work", the real answer is to ignore the complaints about VIP extra training being P2W, and simply build a system that is easy and fun for EVERYONE to use.

It's struggling against the idea that VIP should not give a training advantage, but it kinda does, but people won't pay for it without some advantage, but it kinda doesn't cause if your willing to login 24/7 you can do the same thing, but practically that's impossible, and that is not fun gameplay for anyone anyway, that is causing all these problems with both how it's implemented, AND how ALT accounts work.

Simply put all training into a time pool, assign it when you login and have enough for a pip, rather than queuing ups skills, and give VIP a 20-50% discount on all skill costs in time. This makes every skill gain something pleasant you experience directly. 

When players start to hit the really long training node times, or when they have returned from a long absence and have hundreds or thousands of hours to assign, that VIP cost discount will look really really good, if you're the kind of player that happens to care.

I really like this idea. This coming from someone who is fine with ACE's recently announced changes: they do need to make money and I don't see faster VIP progression as a problem. Mechanically, I think it will work fine.

But I agree that the system is not fun. Not for VIPs or non-VIPs. Needing to log in at specific times to pick the new skill or suffer some wasted training time is an annoyance, it's significantly less painful for VIPs but it's still not fun for them.

It's also unfortunate that ACE's system is at its most annoying for the most crucial demographic: noob non-VIPs playing their first day/week, the people most at risk of bouncing off the game and never coming back. It'll get less annoying as you progress into longer training times after the first month or so, and that's exactly when they should be putting a little pressure on the now-hooked non-VIP player to start paying ACE's rent. The annoyance progression curve is the opposite of what it should be.

A small pool of saved training time that you can spend for instant skill ups would remove the annoyance factor completely and give players something to look forward to when they log in, some fun instant gratification. You could even start every new account with 1 day / 1 week / whatever of pooled training time to spend immediately, this could immensely improve the essential day 1 noob experience. Then give VIPs a larger pool cap, or shorter training times, or whatever. This would switch things around so that day 1 non-VIPs get the best experience, and they don't start to feel encouraged to opt in to VIP until they hit the longer training times.

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I still think those that are for the VIP player thing does not really understand the true concern here, its not about the advantage you get from VIP, but how they want to display that advantage, like in what you actually get. The fact that the game was pretty much displayed as a B2P when one funded the game and then they say "no you need VIP to be competetive, or basically play the game/login loads of times during the day" its not a fun method. Atleast in other games its usually you get an XP boost or money drop or loot drop boost, that boost is usually something you can still circumvent by playing a little more than the other player and it doesnt feel as harsh as this one. 

The fact that its passive and only time gated and you need to be online at specific moments to optimize it makes it pretty punishing when you are not. If I can play for 5 hours one day in any other MMO I can catch up if I need to. If I play for 5 hours one day here I really cant catch up, I might get in one more skill training, but then I log off and do other stuff. Thats what is so frustrating about this change, not that you get benefits from VIP, which in my other point basically makes this game a Sub2Play game and not a B2P game at all.

I do understand that games need money to survive, but it just feels rough on the average player that supported it in the early KS days.

TL:DR;

It feels like a must and not a boost to own VIP

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I mean, I think his idea there is also great.

But the poor people (read: no money) who keeping call VIP perks pay-to-win are still going to hate it even more. Even more pay to win they will say because the VIP outright can train more skill ups.

But like I said, I think it is fine either way. VIP better damn well provide something worth paying for. lol

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If I am interpreting everything accurately, this change seems almost negligible. Let's say over the course of a year you inefficiently lose 100 hours of training time as a non-VIP. How much behind people would you actually be, given that incremental changes are no longer part of the system? If we condense those 100 hours into a single last pip of a high-level train, it is actually at most one skill-up difference. The only meaningful issues would be if you failed to train efficiently early in the game, but you would catch up incredibly quickly.

Honestly, for me, pretty much a non-factor change. I liked the video, but I am not sure it is as big of a nerf to Alts as you framed it.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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2 hours ago, mctan said:

If I am interpreting everything accurately, this change seems almost negligible. Let's say over the course of a year you inefficiently lose 100 hours of training time as a non-VIP. How much behind people would you actually be, given that incremental changes are no longer part of the system? If we condense those 100 hours into a single last pip of a high-level train, it is actually at most one skill-up difference. The only meaningful issues would be if you failed to train efficiently early in the game, but you would catch up incredibly quickly.

Honestly, for me, pretty much a non-factor change. I liked the video, but I am not sure it is as big of a nerf to Alts as you framed it.

I think you are seriously underestimating the impact it has on the early game training.

If I want to utilize the new feature of being able to move on after three nodes, and I am a non-VIP player, I will need to log in with the following pattern.

2.39hr -> 4.67hr -> 9.14hr -> 2.39hr -> 4.67hr -> 9.14hr -> 2.39hr -> 4.67hr -> 9.14hr 

That above is 3 nodes of tier one, each node is takes 16.2 hours to clear 3 pips.   If I wanted to do the vessels training, there are 20 nodes in a row that I could do that for before I hit my first Tier 2 node (not counting the "better" vessel training nodes).  That is 13.5 days, of switching on average once every 5 hours never getting a break longer than 9 hours in a row, or almost 5 times per day, for two weeks.

If all I can do is login once a day, it will take me 60 days (two months) to reach the same point as someone with VIP logging in for the same amount of times for two weeks.

I think being 6 weeks behind is not "negligible".

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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17 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I think you are seriously underestimating the impact it has on the early game training.

If I want to utilize the new feature of being able to move on after three nodes, and I am a non-VIP player, I will need to log in with the following pattern.

2.39hr -> 4.67hr -> 9.14hr -> 2.39hr -> 4.67hr -> 9.14hr -> 2.39hr -> 4.67hr -> 9.14hr 

That above is 3 nodes of tier one, each node is takes 16.2 hours to clear 3 pips.   If I wanted to do the vessels training, there are 20 nodes in a row that I could do that for before I hit my first Tier 2 node (not counting the "better" vessel training nodes).  That is 13.5 days, of switching on average once every 5 hours never getting a break longer than 9 hours in a row, or almost 5 times per day, for two weeks.

If all I can do is login once a day, it will take me 60 days (two months) to reach the same point as someone with VIP logging in for the same amount of times for two weeks.

I think being 6 weeks behind is not "negligible".

 

It sure is in a system with a relatively shallow power curve. 

If you want to create hypothetical scenarios where someone can't click a button on occasion the frequency is irrelevant.  A few button presses a day is not unreasonable, sorry if you think it is.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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What about players that start 6 weeks after launch? It's supposed to be a shallow power curve with diminishing returns built into the system - the difference is not zero but it's not going to be game-breaking either. If it is game-breaking for either nonVIPs or new players that's a big fail on the skill tree design, not the queuing perk.

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21 minutes ago, miraluna said:

What about players that start 6 weeks after launch? It's supposed to be a shallow power curve with diminishing returns built into the system - the difference is not zero but it's not going to be game-breaking either. If it is game-breaking for either nonVIPs or new players that's a big fail on the skill tree design, not the queuing perk.

There is a HUGE difference between not having progress because of when you started, and having a huge difference in progress than someone who started at the same time as you, due to a mechanic that goes against the spirit of "You won’t be at a numerical disadvantage versus other players just because they have more time to invest in the game than you do."

 

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25 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

It sure is in a system with a relatively shallow power curve. 

If you want to create hypothetical scenarios where someone can't click a button on occasion the frequency is irrelevant.  A few button presses a day is not unreasonable, sorry if you think it is.

Please explain how that lines up with the FAQ then.

Quote

You won’t be at a numerical disadvantage versus other players just because they have more time to invest in the game than you do.

 

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I think you are seriously underestimating the impact it has on the early game training.

I think you are seriously overestimating how many players would log in once, and only once, daily and not play for over 2.39 hours during that session.

Edit: Especially in early game, when the potential for disparity is highest.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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15 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Please explain how that lines up with the FAQ then.

 

First off, the FAQ is not set in stone, second off, like I said before, you can create hypothetical scenarios but if someone decides he can't log in more than once a month he would also be at a numerical advantage, but when they talk about time investing into the game, they aren't talking about it in the context of someone logging in to click a training node.  They are talking about it in the context of traditional active progression grinds.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 hour ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

First off, the FAQ is not set in stone, second off, like I said before, you can create hypothetical scenarios but if someone decides he can't log in more than once a month he would also be at a numerical advantage, but when they talk about time investing into the game, they aren't talking about it in the context of someone logging in to click a training node.  They are talking about it in the context of traditional active progression grinds.

So basically you're moving the goalposts to say it doesn't. 

Take it however you like but when they say things like 

Quote

In effect, your characters keep advancing while you do things like sleep or go to work.

New players who just paid for the game better custard be able to sleep for a healthy 8 hours from the first moment they log into the game without losing ground for not paying extra.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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20 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

So basically you're moving the goalposts to say it doesn't. 

Take it however you like but when they say things like 

I better custard be able to sleep for 8 hours, from the first moment I log into the game, without losing ground for not paying extra.

No I am sorry, their system will not be immune to any conceivable exceptions.  As I said before if you want to get hypothetical you could make the same argument about someone that can't log in more than once a month.

No I am not moving any goalposts, I am saying that I was around at the time they were talking about this stuff and in the context of their vision at the time (which was subject to change and did change a lot) they were comparing it more to the current mmorpg progression trends, as opposed to promising absolute equality. 

You can obviously be at a numerical disadvantage if you simply don't want to put in the effort to click a few nodes.  Heck, someone could be at a numerical disadvantage by choosing never to train anything. 

The real question is what can you expect of players.  I think their bar they have set is already too low, a lot of you are complaining and want it even lower. 

You need to decide what kind of gamer you are and accept it.  If you have a min/max attitude where you don't want to fall behind in any way, then pony up the 15 dollars and expect to sink time into the game anyway. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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8 hours ago, Ziz said:

This plus soft launch. I'm fully expect people to hear about this game, find out they are permanently behind others with no way to catch up and then losing interest,

Welcome to every game... Someone is always behind someone else... You need to stop acting like that is new.

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Tinnis brought up a good point in the Crowfall Discord that I wished I would've mentioned in my video.

VIP under the old system had ZERO value to non combat oriented players. People who wanted to focus on crafting or harvesting and didn't care about multiple class training had no reason to buy VIP. 

In fact they were going to be hurt by the fact the VIP had so little value due to their role specialization being trivialized by unchecked multiple account usage.

Edited by Zybak
whoops

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