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ZYBAK

Crowfall Goes Pay to Win? VIP Skill Tree Changes and PTW Discussion

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13 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

This logic is flawed, adding tokens only makes third party trading more enticing, the only way they prevent this is if they do like I suggested ages ago and make it so people can only buy so many tokens in a certain period, and a token can only be traded once. 

A good idea. But i am afraid Alts would make it obsolete, if people can buy tokens they can buy ALTs.

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1 minute ago, blazzen said:

I'd rather they make the money and further develop the game rather than someone else. 

I don't agree with tokens making third party trading more enticing - even if items were available cheaper on the black market I don't think it would be worth the risk of getting banned but that's just me.

Limiting token purchases or token trades might not be a bad idea. 

Well it's pretty simple, if ACE's sole intent for VIP tokens is to allow players to get VIP through playing and trading then there is no reason not to limit tokens to being traded only one time.  Directly from the person that bought the token to a person that needs it for a month of time.

If their actual intent is to let people have more p2w free reign, then of course they wouldn't limit that, so that the tokens themselves could become the main benchmark currency. 


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11 minutes ago, blazzen said:

I'd rather they make the money and further develop the game rather than someone else. 

I don't agree with tokens making third party trading more enticing - even if items were available cheaper on the black market I don't think it would be worth the risk of getting banned but that's just me.

Limiting token purchases or token trades might not be a bad idea. 

I think the thing is that without tokens you at least has some problems when engaging RMT with obscure third parties. Now with VIP tokens it is totally legal and easy to do it.

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7 minutes ago, blazzen said:

I'd rather they make the money and further develop the game rather than someone else. 

I don't agree with tokens making third party trading more enticing - even if items were available cheaper on the black market I don't think it would be worth the risk of getting banned but that's just me.

Limiting token purchases or token trades might not be a bad idea. 

Agreed. 

But a better restriction would token transactions per account/month.  Trying to identify what tokens have or have not been traded, or making two items "Token", "Traded Token", would be a programmatic pain in the butt.

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Of course limiting token purchases would be like telling an apple vendor to only sell so many apples each month. Kind of counter productive from a business standpoint. 

I think you P2W guys are either going to have to accept it or move on. Crowfall is much less P2W than other MMORPG's out there so I think you're being a bit nit picky. Like I said there's always FPS or MOBA if you want competitive without "wealth". 

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Just now, blazzen said:

Of course limiting token purchases would be like telling an apple vendor to only sell so many apples each month. Kind of counter productive from a business standpoint. 

I think you P2W guys are either going to have to accept it or move on. Crowfall is much less P2W than other MMORPG's out there so I think you're being a bit nit picky. Like I said there's always FPS or MOBA if you want competitive without "wealth". 

Fortunately those kinds of restrictions could be added if it became a problem. Certainly not something needed on day one.

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1 minute ago, blazzen said:

Of course limiting token purchases would be like telling an apple vendor to only sell so many apples each month. Kind of counter productive from a business standpoint. 

I think you P2W guys are either going to have to accept it or move on. Crowfall is much less P2W than other MMORPG's out there so I think you're being a bit nit picky. Like I said there's always FPS or MOBA if you want competitive without "wealth". 

There's also zero import campaigns. 

Some of us just have a more competitive integrity I guess. 

Also you can not say crowfall is less p2w, because crowfall isn't out yet, and so far nothing they have shown indicates that they are strictly against p2w.


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You don't really need to worry about restricting the tokens, their value is entirely based on demand. The demand is based on using them for sub time, which basically translates to someone else paying for your sub time in exchange for some other thing. It's just abstracted to an in-game commodity. If the demand for sub time isn't there, the tokens are worthless and thus buying more of them gains you nothing.

It's not a bad or P2W system because you're just trading around game-time in the form of in-game items, does it matter if I recruited you to farm X for me by paying your sub or just trading a generic sub token in game? It just abstracts it for convenience and cuts down on gold farming; mechanically/economically it's a wash if the demand is high and a waste of real money if the demand is low.

Edited by Duffy

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1 minute ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

There's also zero import campaigns. 

Some of us just have a more competitive integrity I guess. 

Also you can not say crowfall is less p2w, because crowfall isn't out yet, and so far nothing they have shown indicates that they are strictly against p2w.

Yep and I plan to play zero import myself. 

We can talk about Crowfall's current state on P2W even if it's not out yet. 

Todd has said a number of times he doesn't want to add "POWER" to VIP, only "CONVENIENCE". I would say that's a non-P2W stance. 

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1 minute ago, blazzen said:

Yep and I plan to play zero import myself. 

We can talk about Crowfall's current state on P2W even if it's not out yet. 

Todd has said a number of times he doesn't want to add "POWER" to VIP, only "CONVENIENCE". I would say that's a non-P2W stance. 

Yea, while he completely ignores the fact that vip tokens themselves can be sold for power in game. 

I don't care if import campaigns suffer from p2w, that is ace's problem, I will be playing zero import, but it's also silly to pretend things aren't p2w when they really are. 

I'd rather a company be honest about it all then try to do mental gymnastics trying to say that because players trade in game anyway, p2w is ok.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

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One way to preserve zero import campaigns would be to not allow VIP tokens to enter the campaign worlds. In other words, if you purchase a VIP token it can only be accessed in game while in an EK. This means players will only buy/sell VIP tokens while in an EK and items gained this way could only enter a campaign through an import which means no items could enter a zero import campaign that were purchased with VIP tokens.

This could also give some incentive to zero import players to actually export their campaign winnings – at least they could sell the exported items for VIP tokens to players who like to play import campaigns.

 

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6 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Yea, while he completely ignores the fact that vip tokens themselves can be sold for power in game. 

I don't care if import campaigns suffer from p2w, that is ace's problem, I will be playing zero import, but it's also silly to pretend things aren't p2w when they really are. 

I'd rather a company be honest about it all then try to do mental gymnastics trying to say that because players trade in game anyway, p2w is ok.

They are not saying p2w is ok... You speak of being honest then strawman in the same sentence. They are saying its NOT p2w because VIP can be traded in game. Your vague definition of p2w is what's making it look that way to you, not the actual facts of the situation which say otherwise.

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14 minutes ago, blazzen said:

One way to preserve zero import campaigns would be to not allow VIP tokens to enter the campaign worlds. In other words, if you purchase a VIP token it can only be accessed in game while in an EK. This means players will only buy/sell VIP tokens while in an EK and items gained this way could only enter a campaign through an import which means no items could enter a zero import campaign that were purchased with VIP tokens.

This could also give some incentive to zero import players to actually export their campaign winnings – at least they could sell the exported items for VIP tokens to players who like to play import campaigns.

 

It could even be a material gate for those players that don't particularly want to play CW's, but do want to play EK lego, and craft.

Frankly, anything anyone pays for in EK's, other than unique CW winner only relics and such, can't be pay to win by definition, because the expectation is that every player will maximize any imports they are allowed on world entrance.

If import restrictions work as intended, people should be able to purchase materials packs and such for EK's, like Lego kits, direct from ACE.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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21 minutes ago, blazzen said:

One way to preserve zero import campaigns would be to not allow VIP tokens to enter the campaign worlds. In other words, if you purchase a VIP token it can only be accessed in game while in an EK. This means players will only buy/sell VIP tokens while in an EK and items gained this way could only enter a campaign through an import which means no items could enter a zero import campaign that were purchased with VIP tokens.

This could also give some incentive to zero import players to actually export their campaign winnings – at least they could sell the exported items for VIP tokens to players who like to play import campaigns.

 

The tokens themselves are in game items so they wouldn't enter a zero import campaign anyway, because there is zero import.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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17 minutes ago, pang said:

They are not saying p2w is ok... You speak of being honest then strawman in the same sentence. They are saying its NOT p2w because VIP can be traded in game. Your vague definition of p2w is what's making it look that way to you, not the actual facts of the situation which say otherwise.

My definition isn't vague, it is pretty simple and logical. 

You pay real money for in game power.  Not that vague.

They are saying p2w is ok, they just aren't SAYING it because it would be bad for headlines.  The way the game is designed is saying it. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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39 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Todd has said a number of times he doesn't want to add "POWER" to VIP, only "CONVENIENCE". I would say that's a non-P2W stance. 

And then a inconvenience system got introduced with the whole purpose to justify the "convenience" VIP can give. That is not how it should be done.  And in the long run will hurt the game more than it will help.

 

Leaving multi accounts, P2W and all the things aside, designing a system that is bad in first play just to sell something to make it better, is just wrong. And I cant understand how someone can like a system like this. There were a lot of suggestions in the other thread that would make VIP desirable but without hurting the non-VIP accounts that much.

 

Passive training is a core feature of the game and it should not be touched by VIP or at least should not be that inconvenience that everyone wants to buy VIP only to make it better.

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2 hours ago, why_me said:

And then a inconvenience system got introduced with the whole purpose to justify the "convenience" VIP can give. That is not how it should be done.  And in the long run will hurt the game more than it will help.

 

Leaving multi accounts, P2W and all the things aside, designing a system that is bad in first play just to sell something to make it better, is just wrong. And I cant understand how someone can like a system like this. There were a lot of suggestions in the other thread that would make VIP desirable but without hurting the non-VIP accounts that much.

 

Passive training is a core feature of the game and it should not be touched by VIP or at least should not be that inconvenience that everyone wants to buy VIP only to make it better.

I fully agree with you on this standpoint, I cant see how someone want to justify this feature either. They gimp accounts that arent sub based, while saying its a buy2play game, and the gimp is pretty bad as well. I understand that some people dont look at it that way, maybe becasue they dont have a busy life, but for someone who has this makes a real issue. Its not about the time you put in either, because as stated, its a set time that you HAVE to be online for in order to fully benefit from that timer. Its not like I can log in an hour later because thats when im done studying or thats when uni is finished. I have to be on at that exact time to get the full benefit of the "button click", which makes the system very punishing, because you can essentially never catch up. If you have a super busy week and can hardly be at your computer for longer periods and your game time is the weekend, this also handicaps you by a lot.

I hope the price for the VIP is gonna get lowered to around 5 bucks a month, because at the moment all I see you pay 15 bucks for is a convenience that should be given to all, and thats about it from VIP. You pay for server costs ? Its not like there is PvE content here, and a new class introduced will be so behind its laughable... I cant see the value so someone please explain to me what 15 bucks a month will get you other than training queues ?

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6 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Nope I didn't miss it, I just understand how things work.  p2w is related specifically to paying real money for in game stuff.

So, if you paid money for the game and you got to play it ... you are paying to win?


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