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ZYBAK

Crowfall Goes Pay to Win? VIP Skill Tree Changes and PTW Discussion

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21 minutes ago, zolaz said:

Of course you do.  Because it is using your own words against your strawman arguement.  According to your definition of P2W, everything is P2W.

No it isn't.  What it is doing is taking 1 line out of context and trying to misconstrue the thought being conveyed. 

Use the entire post.

Notice that I use "specifically related" and compare it to what JTC describes as justifying p2w.  Comparing earned items in game vs paying money for power. You meanwhile tried to take the line by itself with no context to warp the meaning.

This is why I said it is a bit desperate.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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7 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

My definition isn't vague, it is pretty simple and logical. 

You pay real money for in game power.  Not that vague.

They are saying p2w is ok, they just aren't SAYING it because it would be bad for headlines.  The way the game is designed is saying it. 

Ok .. you pay real money for a game and you get in game power.  A character, an EK, the ability to train and gather resources that you can sell/trade.  Sounds like the definition of P2W as Vikingnail presented it.  "You pay real money for in game power.  Not that vague."

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21 minutes ago, zolaz said:

Ok .. you pay real money for a game and you get in game power.  A character, an EK, the ability to train and gather resources that you can sell/trade.  Sounds like the definition of P2W as Vikingnail presented it.  "You pay real money for in game power.  Not that vague."

Go on, it is fun watching you desperately try to argue that buying the game is buying power.  Buying the game itself gives you no in game power, and you literally have no more power than anyone else who is playing the game simply by buying it. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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9 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Go on, it is fun watching you desperately try to argue that buying the game is buying power.  Buying the game itself gives you no in game power, and you literally have no more power than anyone else who is playing the game simply by buying it. 

and here is where your logic falls apart as pointed out numerous times now. Buying VIP doesn't gain you any MORE power than someone who doesn't pay irl cash for VIP. At most you progress faster but access to said power isn't blocked off behind a paywall, hence not P2W.

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1 hour ago, pang said:

and here is where your logic falls apart as pointed out numerous times now. Buying VIP doesn't gain you any MORE power than someone who doesn't pay irl cash for VIP. At most you progress faster but access to said power isn't blocked off behind a paywall, hence not P2W.

And again you are wrong, because VIP itself can be directly traded for in game stuff, which is power.  VIP itself also grants power, through the ability to train more than a person without VIP.

You guys are struggling hard to avoid the p2w label, but simply speaking, you pay more money and you get more power in crowfall, that is p2w.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Good job on the video Zybak, but I disagree.

This is Pay to Win and you all know it. You can argue that you aren't winning that hard, but that's a dumb argument for defending why your game isn't P2W. This game was advertised as B2P. Now the sub is mandatory if you want to be competitive. Most people want to be competitive and don't like disadvantages.

What you all fail to see is this only helps nerds. Nobody who is a casual gamer would like this change at all. I will not play BDO because I will never spend enough time or money to be competitive in that game. That alone is reason enough to not touch the game. Many casual gamers will feel the same about a PVP FOCUSED GAME which requires a SUB to be MIN/MAX Competetive.

Much of this video is just an attack against those who want to buy multiple accounts. Guess what, the most optimal way to play the game is to have multiple accounts and a script that auto trains for you. This again will only be done by nerds and is not an option for casual gamers, unless they want to join a huge guild that supplies this script and info for them.

 

This is where I am coming from:

  • I have played and like the sub model of games like Ultima Online and WoW.
  • I hate P2W games and typically refuse to play them.
  • I like competitive PVP games where time/money doesn't give you a huge advantage.
  • I have no problem paying 15 bucks a month for this game. I do not want an advantage against NON VIP players because I paid money.

The biggest takeaway I hope anyone gets from this post is that I have NO problem paying a subscription fee. I do not want to have an advantage for doing so.

Waking up at 3 AM to train a skill is a huge inconvenience and a tipping point of how soon you will STOP playing the game.

Stop assuming casual players are okay with a statistical disadvantage. They are not, that is why casual gamers don't play MMORPGs.

 

Easily fixed with - Non VIP gets 24 hours of skill queueing. VIP gets 1 month of skill queueing. Tell me why this isn't a better idea as it basically removes the Pay to Win. Never force someone to set a timer to interrupt work/sleep.

Edited by ClockworkOrange

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19 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Good job on the video Zybak, but I disagree.

This is Pay to Win and you all know it. You can argue that you aren't winning that hard, but that's a dumb argument for defending why your game isn't P2W. This game was advertised as B2P. Now the sub is mandatory if you want to be competitive. Most people want to be competitive and don't like disadvantages.

What you all fail to see is this only helps nerds. Nobody who is a casual gamer would like this change at all. I will not play BDO because I will never spend enough time or money to be competitive in that game. That alone is reason enough to not touch the game. Many casual gamers will feel the same about a PVP FOCUSED GAME which requires a SUB to be MIN/MAX Competetive.

Much of this video is just an attack against those who want to buy multiple accounts. Guess what, the most optimal way to play the game is to have multiple accounts and a script that auto trains for you. This again will only be done by nerds and is not an option for casual gamers, unless they want to join a huge guild that supplies this script and info for them.

 

This is where I am coming from:

  • I have played and like the sub model of games like Ultima Online and WoW.
  • I hate P2W games and typically refuse to play them.
  • I like competitive PVP games where time/money doesn't give you a huge advantage.
  • I have no problem paying 15 bucks a month for this game. I do not want an advantage against NON VIP players because I paid money.

The biggest takeaway I hope anyone gets from this post is that I have NO problem paying a subscription fee. I do not want to have an advantage for doing so.

Waking up at 3 AM to train a skill is a huge inconvenience and a tipping point of how soon you will STOP playing the game.

Stop assuming casual players are okay with a statistical disadvantage. They are not, that is why casual gamers don't play MMORPGs.

 

Easily fixed with - Non VIP gets 24 hours of skill queueing. VIP gets 1 month of skill queueing. Tell me why this isn't a better idea as it basically removes the Pay to Win. Never force someone to set a timer to interrupt work/sleep.

I agree 90%.

As long as you can reasonably earn in game VIP, even if that is from other players, it's not pay to win.

New players won't have had that ability, so unless they include VIP for at least on month in all packages, personally I think it should be 3 and required, and treat the base game as free, then for the first month is technically pay to win. After about 30 days of training if you break sleep schedules, you will probably have enough 3 pip skills that you can train all the time, so it sort of only starts as pay to win, and then stops being that once you can pick skills that take more than 24hrs to finish.

I'm really divided on the Pay to Win aspect, simply because it's a balance.  If you had to give up/play for >10 hrs a week or break your personal schedule to skill queue for the game to overcome any purchased advantage, then it's pay to win.  If it's less than that in game time to overcome, and you get to play how and when you want, then it's not. 

That's a personal "reasonable" and I'm sure everyone has a different bar.

So to me CF is pay to win in it's handling of ATLs, because there is no in game way to get the same advantage purchasing a second account gets you, and it might become pay to win because of the skill queue, but by and large as far as VIP is concerned the jury is out on for me, until we see how many in game hours people have to spend to get enough to trade other players for it.

I really think a training time bank would solve alot of these issues and arguments, and be more fun when it comes time to spend your training time, and be a super easy "catch up" fix down the road, as simply dropping time into new accounts would not require any new systems be built, just add time and away they go.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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why are people complaining about having to log in to change the skill tree after gaining a point? are you not going to be playing the game that much?

certainly this will become a calendaring task for those non-vip, but i don't see this addition as a "pay-to-win" scenario. 

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Just now, dpad said:

why are people complaining about having to log in to change the skill tree after gaining a point? are you not going to be playing the game that much?

certainly this will become a calendaring task for those non-vip, but i don't see this addition as a "pay-to-win" scenario. 

Another person who doesn't understand what a casual gamer is. I also don't think you understand the issue.

You going to be playing the game every 3 hours when you first start? If you don't understand why I ask, you don't understand the issue.

 

 

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most testers/people in this forum have at least 1-month of VIP. that is enough time to dive deep into a specific skill tree path for general, or lvl up a bunch of initials. most people know after 1 month if they'll stick with an mmo longer or not. i don't understand why you think we are different social beings...

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6 minutes ago, dpad said:

why are people complaining about having to log in to change the skill tree after gaining a point? are you not going to be playing the game that much?

certainly this will become a calendaring task for those non-vip, but i don't see this addition as a "pay-to-win" scenario. 

Do some math.

If I want to utilize the new feature of being able to move on after three pips, and I am a non-VIP player, I will need to log in with the following pattern.

2.39hr -> 4.67hr -> 9.14hr -> 2.39hr -> 4.67hr -> 9.14hr -> 2.39hr -> 4.67hr -> 9.14hr  (Just try to imagine yourself doing this for a month to keep up).

I will need to repeat the tier 1-3 pattern as many times as there are tier 1 nodes along my path. Vessels for example have 20 tier one nodes. I will also need to do this every time I come across a new tier 1 node. This averages to 1 login required every 5.3 hours. 

Then add in your class training, and that it won't line up with your general, because classes basics are not Tier one.  

A single login a day player, will take 60 days to reach the same point as VIP with identical login patterns takes 13.5 days to reach.

That's why.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I agree 90%.

As long as you can reasonably earn in game VIP, even if that is from other players, it's not pay to win.

New players won't have had that ability, so unless they include VIP for at least on month in all packages, personally I think it should be 3 and required, and treat the base game as free, then for the first month is technically pay to win. After about 30 days of training if you break sleep schedules, you will probably have enough 3 pip skills that you can train all the time, so it sort of only starts as pay to win, and then stops being that once you can pick skills that take more than 24hrs to finish.

I'm really divided on the Pay to Win aspect, simply because it's a balance.  If you had to give up/play for >10 hrs a week or break your personal schedule to skill queue for the game to overcome any purchased advantage, then it's pay to win.  If it's less than that in game time to overcome, and you get to play how and when you want, then it's not. 

That's a personal "reasonable" and I'm sure everyone has a different bar.

So to me CF is pay to win in it's handling of ATLs, because there is no in game way to get the same advantage purchasing a second account gets you, and it might become pay to win because of the skill queue, but by and large as far as VIP is concerned the jury is out on for me, until we see how many in game hours people have to spend to get enough to trade other players for it.

I really think a training time bank would solve alot of these issues and arguments, and be more fun when it comes time to spend your training time, and be a super easy "catch up" fix down the road, as simply dropping time into new accounts would not require any new systems be built, just add time and away they go.

 

"Reasonable" is unfortunately flexible depending on the person and the in-game economy. Assuming a well balanced economy controlled mainly by your min/maxers what usually happens (using EVE as an example) is that your casual player will rarely optimize or play well enough to acquire VIP tokens consistently. They will get by otherwise, but honestly they are the ones that are more likely to buy and sell tokens than the min/maxers who are rocking the markets. Why sell a token if I'm a diehard who can dominate the market via knowledge, efficiency, or use of my superior amount of in-game time to plop some 'small change' into grabbing a token once in awhile when I need one. That said the CWs do put a weird hiccup in the model that makes how this could all work out market wise really hard to predict. This sort of thing mainly works well assuming a universal currency and pervasive market system making acquisition trivial if desired, which right now I don't think CF has hinted at very much? Need more feature details to weigh the in-game economy likelihood of supporting VIP tokens. Our arguments about how the VIP/non-VIP tokens work aside, right now I'm not even sure they would work well just due to the potentially different structure of the game's markets compared to contemporaries, at least to hit any sort of critical mass.

Multi accounts can only be fought by removing or trivializing dependencies on passive systems for some aspect of the game (usually crafting), otherwise they will be far too enticing an option and any attempt to combat them will end up impacting everyone in some way, usually detrimentally. Even in the current context, a single person playing multiple accounts is way less efficient when it comes to playable game-time than multiple people playing the same accounts, and there is a trade off to trying to do too much yourself. But again, the more you rely on passive systems the less that game time played cost factors into the equation. If you want to marginalize alts, you need to change the passive stuff into more engaging, fun, and importantly time consuming mechanics like the other aspects of the game. Otherwise just relent and let people have their alts if they want, because in the end you won't beat them, they will circumvent your roadblocks and those roadblocks will only end up affecting those not using alts and those who may casually try alts negatively.

Edited by Duffy

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4 minutes ago, dpad said:

it still sounds like whining, tho. if you're fine being casual then don't complain for lvls of playstyle above you. accept that it's not on your path.

Except they said in the FAQ that's what they were building.

Quote

In effect, your characters keep advancing while you do things like sleep or go to work. You won’t be at a numerical disadvantage versus other players just because they have more time to invest in the game than you do.

Oh and I'm not worried about me, I'll have VIP for as long as I play the game. This is about casual players without VIP, which is expected to be 75-80% of the player base.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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2 minutes ago, dpad said:

it still sounds like whining, tho. if you're fine being casual then don't complain for lvls of playstyle above you. accept that it's not on your path.

The concern is that if the casuals decide not to play, the game doesn't make enough money, and the game then dies and no one gets to play. 

A lot of the concern comes from interpreting the causal's perspective, F2P and B2P get lots of flack and generally only seem to survive when mass appeal makes up the difference via a cash shop (ala TOR, GW2, ESO, etc..). CF is not going to have mass appeal, it will be a niche game. So that sort of option is risky, not to mention as a competitive game they also need to be careful the cash options don't give an advantage or you'll start getting P2W flak.

Now don't get me wrong, if they reevaluated and said it's a sub game with a free to play option to act as a demo/enticement, it can probably be salvaged. Even just as a reasonable person you can look at what was outlined and reach that conclusion, unfortunately that's not how it usually plays out, perception matters leading up to launch and right now CF isn't doing so hot with outside perceptions.

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There needs to be a balance between ACE being able to make money over time (subscriptions/VIP) and making the game awful for non-subscribers. 

Critical mass of players generating content with eachother is important too for the health of a game.  If you dont have the playerbase, well funded MMOs die too.

I hope they give a short skill que at least... maybe 12 hours?  Enough that you can go to work/sleep easy, but still have to log in each day. 

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On 8.7.2017 at 11:40 AM, why_me said:

There are also players that don't have the time and the money to pay for VIP but still want to be competitive.

If you don't have the Money for VIP, okay. If you don't have time, then you can't be competitive anyway. MMORPGs are always focused on spending time, the more time you invest, the more Power you get. If you don't have time and want to be competitive, then you should not play an MMORPG in the first place. That is just my opinion but think about it. You shouldn't pay to win but pay to keep the game alive.

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