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Q&A Live: Race & Class demos - Official discussion thread

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Just now, PaleOne said:

I hate the idea that skill training makes every one basically exactly the same .

in order to complete the race tree and advance you need to train everything... so end game all races will have trained the same things

The class tree is the same way!

why even let us choose?

Forcing people to train skills that they aren't interested in pursuing is not " the min max dream" we were promised .

 

I really hate inefficiency .

im training plate armor on my duelist right now... it gives me a headache just thinking about it because I never plan to wear it...

Removal of Pre-Requisites

"As part of adding more choice in progressing through a skill tree, we have dropped the requirements of requiring max training in a skill node to advance in the tree. Generally, skills will now require three or four pips to be trained before you meet the requirements to “jump forward” and train the next skill(s) in the tree.

This means you can jump to a deeper skill in the skill tree earlier if you choose. For some builds it might be better to go deeper in the skill tree rather than mastering the earlier skills. It’s all about player choice."

This serves to solve part of your problem, but not completely.

Source: https://crowfall.com/en/news/skill-training-mechanics-and-you/

Edited by DustFinger

"Las batallas van y vienen pero mis soldados son eternos"

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2 hours ago, Kirchhoff said:

This is a MMORPG, not a FPS.

Carrying 12 arrows around probably would be fine in real life (basically you die if you get hit with an arrow).  But, unless you are playing a hunting simulator, that will not make a fun game.

There is literally a class with a gun.  If we make it realistic, then it all goes to poorly made socks.

If you aren't wearing armor, getting hit by an arrow is going to be rather upsetting.

  • Insta-kill or near insta-kill is a distinct possibility
  • Theres a lot of other places where you could get shot that would cause you to have a real bad day

With this said and done, the over-whelming majority of places that you will get hit won't prove immediately fatal and would allow you to get healed.  (I've had to track down gut shot deer.  They can travel an annoying distance)

If someone is wearing full plate - worse yet is carrying a shield - the odds that a single shoot kills you or even knocks you out of combat is really slim.

In his book "The Longbow" Mike Loades has some compelling discussion regarding the arms race between bows and armor.

Even during the heyday of English archery the primary way that archers inconvenienced attackers was via kinetic impact - not piercing damage.  Yes, some folks would get unlucky and take a shot through the visor on in a %+@!$#?&*^ in their armor, but for the most back the archers served to break up massed formations and charges allowing the accompanying infantry to do the real killing.


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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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I like the idea of off line skill training as I am a entrepreneur who owns several businesses and can't play games 24/7.

I thought that this way some 14 year old with no life isnt going to be able to surpass me on pvp effectiveness by doubling my play time and out leveling me.

 

But the more i think about it, I think neither grinding mobs nor time based progress is going to be good for the game long term.

Unless you can level your toon to max level in weeks not months( like SB) and get on with the fun, a long character progression cycle is bad for the game because new blood which the game is going to need ( because people quit hardcore games in droves) Will never catch up.

 

I personally think that gear and disciplines will be all the character progression we need. We are going to spend our time in the game split between character progression and guild progression.

 

Personally even right now skill progression is not fun. Its like a Job forcing me to log in in to check my progression and make sure i don't fall behind the competition.

 

It was like in SWG when I felt I HAD to log in everyday to pay maintenance on my factories. When It wasnt log on to have fun but log on to do tedious junk i quit and moved to a game that was fun again...

Edited by PaleOne

www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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20 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

Just heard that camouflage doesnt hide the health bar or name tag while moving (Predator mode). That is kinda of pointless.

If it is possible you guys could only make those visible when in combat. Could also give us a option of hiding them from our vision (even if said person is in combat) since we have other ways to read them: The party UI for friends and the Icon that appears on Top for enemies.

I just think that all those name tags and whatnot are super ugly. Pls give me a option to hide them.

I dunno... hiding name tags would make it difficult to tell whether others are friend or foe until they're within striking range. Could be interesting though.

20 hours ago, coolwaters said:

On the TBlair image below it reads as class > race > gender, which I find odd. 

Ticky, but I feel it would be more user friendly and rational to list as race > gender > class, no? Or do vessels set this all on its metaphorical head?

I think gender > race > class would make more sense. i.e. Female Human Knight vs Human Female Knight.

I also agree that noone's going to forget their chars gender, so having that is unnecessary.

 

All in all, good livestream. WTB Elkin :D


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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31 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

But the more i think about it, I think neither grinding mobs nor time based progress is going to be good for the game long term.

Unless you can level your toon to max level in weeks not months( like SB) and get on with the fun, a long character progression cycle is bad for the game because new blood which the game is going to need ( because people quit hardcore games in droves) Will never catch up.

This is how I am starting to feel as of late. I disagree with a timeline of 1-2 years to reach the end of the game. I know part of this creates specialization, but the other part hides aspects of the game from players for months. As you mentioned people quit hardcore games in droves which leaves you after a year with players at the top and a lack of a catch up mechanic.

Well they say a catch up mechanic is to come. What does this really mean though? Are you going to allow people to instantly gain a year of training? If so, specialization will be lost at that time and the game will become flooded with alt accounts.

I am starting to think a UO type system with a skill cap is a better alternative. Let me be MAX in two weeks to a month, but limit me by a skill cap that doesn't allow me to have more than 100 pips invested or some number like this on any one character.

This creates the problem of alt accounts and lack of specialization, but a strong catch up mechanic will create that down the road. Currently I see alt accounts as less of a problem as they have always existed and you can't do much to prevent them. One man with 10 alt accounts is still less effective than 10 players. Nobody complains about a guild cap, why complain so hard about alts? Both create a power advantage due to the import system.

I don't like ALTs, they are just unavoidable in a passive skill gain system.

 

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1 minute ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Well they say a catch up mechanic is to come. What does this really mean though? Are you going to allow people to instantly gain a year of training? If so, specialization will be lost at that time and the game will become flooded with alt accounts.

Fair point. Why cant people just abuse the catch up mechanic to get out of having to specialize. 

 

Although i already think there will be a alt account flood. 


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I don't particularly like the idea of a "catch up mechanic". Pick a progression system and stay true to it. If one believes it to be so harsh as to deter people from joining/purchasing the game in the future, then one should probably consider weather it should be changed now.

To give such a "mechanic" would cheapen both the game itself and the original/early backer's investment of time. Just my 0.02

Edited by armegeddon

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16 minutes ago, armegeddon said:

I don't particularly like the idea of a "catch up mechanic". Pick a progression system and stay true to it. If one believes it to be so harsh as to deter people from joining/purchasing the game in the future, then one should probably consider weather it should be changed now.

To give such a "mechanic" would cheapen both the game itself and the original/early backer's investment of time. Just my 0.02

In a world with real loss- With the ability to lose castles and real estate as well as all the loot in your inventory, people will stop at nothing to get an advantage.

I know if i had the ability to advance faster I would have to take advantage of it to stay competitive. So any "Catch up" mechanic would be exploited by old players as well, with alts if they cant use it on their main.

 

Either the system has to be as weak as it is now resulting in maybe 15% of your characters power to give new players a chance or they need to just allow us to make character progress in different ways.


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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Anyone ever play ARK; I know some of you have.  :P  Nighttime doesn't just have to be about how well you see, it can also be about what types of things you meet, or what type of resources are available.

Lighten up the nighttime, but give it a special bonus for gem retrieval, while making some of the mobs super hard to fight at night.  Personally If you have a day/night cycle make it like Alaska during the summer. :ph34r:

Edited by Teufel

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13 hours ago, narsille said:

Personally, I'd prefer a system in which arrows hit harder, but you were much more restricted with respect to the number that you could carry.

Back in the weird old days, folks didn't carry unlimited numbers of arrows with them.  Going into battle, a Manchu archer would typically carry a dozen or so)

The Turks and the Mongols would carry closer to 50.  English longbow men would carry 48-60.

There are battles such as Carrhae that are talked to to this day because one side was sufficiently sophisticated with respect to their logistics that they could provide their archers with wagon trains worth of arrows.

I'd like to see that sort of planning have a role in Crowfall.

 

What's the history stats on the fireballs being thrown around?

:)

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Regarding the day/night cycle. Currently, it is a 50/50 split, regardless of the duration. This need not be the case. You could go to a 75/25 split of Daylight and Darkness and it would still be realistic, while limiting the impact for those who have a problem with it being dark. As for the darkness itself, if you are going to have night at all, then in my opinion it should be dark, or why bother. Yes there are all kinds of secondary effects you could have such as mob variances, loot drop differences, all other manner of connected variables, but darkness really does make or break a day/night cycle and given all the possible methods of countering it in-game, I don't see a problem with it.

On the subject of the current Skill Training, especially the pip-based requirement of having to login every few hours to move it along - bad idea. I know exactly why they came up with it and they could come up with something better. Ditch it, before it costs you.

On the passive training mechanic in general, it has pros and cons, but overall it feels to me like it is not going to do the job alone, in terms of satisfying everyone's tastes and meeting all player's needs. I think a system which had both passive and active training, for different areas or types of skills, or some portion of which could be done via either method, would be best. I can think of several possible systems which would perhaps be better and avoid some of the issues inherent in the current system.

Lastly, about arrows...while I do believe the concept of ammunition is a good one, I feel it has to be done in such a way as to not limit the player's enjoyment on the class or otherwise become a determining factor in whether it is played or not. Perhaps some compromise could be devised where crafted arrow quaniity scaled up with the wood quality or type used - so the same amount of Knotwood and the same amount of Yew wood would produce different amounts of arrows in a stack, with the range between the 2 being very high and a large number of arrows being granted for the 'highest' material type, or quality, depending on which way was deemed best.

Having to manage resources and ammunition is good, but it should be done in a way that finds the right balance between ease and difficulty. Not sure we are there currently.

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6 hours ago, Anthrage said:

Regarding the day/night cycle. Currently, it is a 50/50 split, regardless of the duration. This need not be the case. You could go to a 75/25 split of Daylight and Darkness and it would still be realistic

 

3 minutes ago, Za_ said:

+1

75/25 split much better ......... 

Would be cool if it changed based on season, summer has long days and short nights while winter has longer nights.


Here is the current hints and layout of the racial skill tree!

iIAoGpG.png

 


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1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

Here is the current hints and layout of the racial skill tree!

iIAoGpG.png

 

As someone who plans to go with human ranger and dabble with skinning i really dont like how restrictive this looks. I dont think race (nor class btw) should interact with crafting or gathering, at least it shouldnt be the norm.

Not to talk that i cant see the logic behind those choices. Half-Breeds and necro or grave robbing? Really?

Edited by BarriaKarl

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