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Orleans

Delaying Assassin and Frostweaver until after launch

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While I'm excited to see new classes, unless Assassin or Frostweaver are nearly complete, it probably makes sense to delay working further on them until after release. They are nice-to-haves when what I care about is a functional MVP. 

In the interim, a major or weapon discipline could be added for each. Duelist and Ranger could use an Assassin discipline that provides Assassin-like powers, and Druid and Confessor could get the same for Frostweaver. 

Thoughts? 


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Likewise with adding bow animations to every class. It's nice to have, but far from necessary for MVP. These kinds of things can be de-prioritized until just before launch, as they could easily be punted on. 

I'm generally okay with more things being unlocked post-release, in an effort to pare down and release a functional game earlier/on-schedule, but curious what others think. 

Edited by Orleans

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no thanks, too limited options without them to counter balance against the duelist and confessor.

any class released after a soft launch reset will also be eternally disadvantaged by the passive skill training system compared to others

[applies to any time they think about adding a post release base class rather than a disc outside of our currently known classes e.g. talk of a possible future minstrel class etc]

Edited by Tinnis

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They could include passive skill training trees without having the class completely built out. 

I don't fully understand the desire to have a complete game at release. Why can't things be tested and balanced post-release? Isn't that what having a test environment is about? Don't games continue to add features and content perpetually? 


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What is it about Frostweaver and Assassin that will make the game much more appealing to the masses? How does this achieve higher conversion ratios? That's what I'm missing. 


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Just now, Orleans said:

What is it about Frostweaver and Assassin that will make the game much more appealing to the masses? How does this achieve higher conversion ratios? That's what I'm missing. 

they already essentially gutted two classes (forgemaster and stalker) - delaying two more would not be good


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1 minute ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Yeah lets release early. Get everyone to quit before the game is complete and ensure they never come back. This works every time.

This sounds like a you don't want to wait for the game and your intended class is in it so, eff everyone.

I don't have an intended class, but currently digging Druid and like the looks of Cleric, Assassin, Frostweaver, and Duelist. 

It's not that I don't want to wait for the game, it's that I have some experience in software engineering, so I'm trying to contribute ideas which will benefit Crowfall as a game.

I'll repeat, my interest here (these forums, the community) is entirely selfish. But I'm not looking for in-game advantages. I'm looking for Crowfall to be a sustainable game so that I have something to play for the next decade. 

Thanks for the snarky message that contributes absolutely nothing, though! You could perhaps try harder next time. I actually read these comments and value good feedback. 


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3 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

they already essentially gutted two classes (forgemaster and stalker) - delaying two more would not be good

Why? Blanket statements without substantiating points are not helpful. I really want your ideas, give them to meeee. 

Edited by Orleans

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3 minutes ago, Orleans said:

They could include passive skill training trees without having the class completely built out. 

I don't fully understand the desire to have a complete game at release. Why can't things be tested and balanced post-release? Isn't that what having a test environment is about? Don't games continue to add features and content perpetually? 

Because it can drive away new players or players who have been keeping the game in their peripheral. Coming out to launch with a incomplete game, especially for an MMO, has a large risk to cut the game's growth by a lot. For us, we'll know that the game is still being balanced, but how about the majority who'll have their first experience of the game as incomplete? Do they want to hear excuses? No, they'll make their impressions and be on their way. That isn't good for the game in any way.

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@Dondagora So you consider having all races and classes fleshed out to be a factor for a complete game? 

How do the additional options appeal to, attract, and retain players? Is it like having a larger cast in a movie -- more chances for someone to relate to a character? 

I'm okay with having limited race/class choices at launch, if it means the rest of the game is more complete. Features > Diversity, for the MVP, in my opinion.

Edited by Orleans

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I guess what I'm saying is that as a player, having a compelling game system is more important than having additional race/classes at launch. I can envision what will be with a new class or race a lot more easily than I can imagine how whole game systems will impact a game. 


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1 minute ago, Orleans said:

@Dondagora So you consider having all races and classes fleshed out to be a factor for a complete game? 

How do the additional options appeal to, attract, and retain players? Is it like having a larger cast in a movie -- more chances for someone to relate to a character? 

I'm okay with having limited race/class choices at launch, if it means the rest of the game is more complete. Features > Diversity, for the MVP, in my opinion.

Why not both? For the classes, it's mostly animation work and balance at this point, and I'd rather they complete both the classes and the features they intend. From what I've seen, they aren't in a position to be needing to prioritizing at the moment.

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1 minute ago, Dondagora said:

Why not both? For the classes, it's mostly animation work and balance at this point, and I'd rather they complete both the classes and the features they intend. From what I've seen, they aren't in a position to be needing to prioritizing at the moment.

If they have the resources, by all means.

It's just super important to delay the nice-to-haves until the end, so that what isn't necessary can be punted and what is necessary is definitely complete.

The distinction between what is nice-to-have and what is necessary is not one I can draw alone, of course, so I wanted to float these ideas. 

My information is far from complete on the current state of these projects as well as the makeup of the team and other in-flight projects.


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10 minutes ago, Orleans said:

I don't have an intended class, but currently digging Druid and like the looks of Cleric, Assassin, Frostweaver, and Duelist. 

It's not that I don't want to wait for the game, it's that I have some experience in software engineering, so I'm trying to contribute ideas which will benefit Crowfall as a game.

I'll repeat, my interest here (these forums, the community) is entirely selfish. But I'm not looking for in-game advantages. I'm looking for Crowfall to be a sustainable game so that I have something to play for the next decade. 

Thanks for the snarky message that contributes absolutely nothing, though! You could perhaps try harder next time. I actually read these comments and value good feedback. 

Snarky messages are sort of my thing. Maybe I overreacted in my response, but that's because I thought it was a terrible idea.

  • My friends won't touch early access games because they have been burned by "endless beta" before.
  • People quit early access games before they are "complete".
  • Releasing a game early is not good for the long term sustainability of the game.
  • This game already looks like it will be released early.
  • Crowfall already has limited content (it has what it needs, I am not insulting it but lets be honest)

This game is entirely focused around combat. Having all combatants in before launch will allow us to come to some sort of healthy balance. If the game is highly unbalanced (which is easily caused by having missing classes) at launch everyone will leave.

What people want on these forums is often not what the typical gamer wants. A typical gamer wants to spend money on a completed product. When they find there is missing parts from what was advertised they are highly disappointed. They will ask for refunds and stop playing before this game has a chance to go anywhere.

Not trying to be rude, but most of us see your idea as obviously bad. I don't know why we need to spell this out for you.

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7 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Snarky messages are sort of my thing. Maybe I overreacted in my response, but that's because I thought it was a terrible idea.

  • My friends won't touch early access games because they have been burned by "endless beta" before.
  • People quit early access games before they are "complete".
  • Releasing a game early is not good for the long term sustainability of the game.
  • This game already looks like it will be released early.
  • Crowfall already has limited content (it has what it needs, I am not insulting it but lets be honest)

This game is entirely focused around combat. Having all combatants in before launch will allow us to come to some sort of healthy balance. If the game is highly unbalanced (which is easily caused by having missing classes) at launch everyone will leave.

What people want on these forums is often not what the typical gamer wants. A typical gamer wants to spend money on a completed product. When they find there is missing parts from what was advertised they are highly disappointed. They will ask for refunds and stop playing before this game has a chance to go anywhere.

Not trying to be rude, but most of us see your idea as obviously bad. I don't know why we need to spell this out for you.

Most players think anything other than everything is a bad idea. But in reality, ArtCraft has to make decisions about how to allocate resources and when to 'launch'. I'm trying to contribute some fresh ideas based on my experience, but limited knowledge, and create some conversations that might metastasize into something useful. 

I appreciate the contributions, and this is clearly an unpopular idea. But it's been helpful to get everyone's feedback and will enable me to better contribute in the future! 

Focusing on productivity now, so I'll be AWOL for the day but will check back in tonight. 


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I think that would be bad for multiple reasons. First off who knows how far away launch is because I am sure you are talking about FULL LAUNCH. We are still in Pre-Alpha to postpone two classes for that long would be madness. Sure maybe they release them in Alpha instead of Pre-Alpha but waiting into the game launches sounds crazy to me that could be another two years away yet. I could be wrong. Maybe the game will launch sometime next year but that is still a year away. They have time to work things out and as others have said some people are hyped for those classes. 

Launching a game without its promised launched features would be shooting themselves in the head. I would rather wait and get a complete game

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Just now, Orleans said:

Most players think anything other than everything is a bad idea. But in reality, ArtCraft has to make decisions about how to allocate resources and when to 'launch'. I'm trying to contribute some fresh ideas based on my experience, but limited knowledge, and create some conversations that might metastasize into something useful. 

I appreciate the contributions, and this is clearly an unpopular idea. But it's been helpful to get everyone's feedback and will enable me to better contribute in the future! 

Focusing on productivity now, so I'll be AWOL for the day but will check back in tonight. 

I like that you are creating conversations. Don't let haters like me stop you.

It seems like less new threads pop up because this salty forum crowd likes to smack everyone down.

Good day Sir

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Regarding contrast with what the average gamer wants:

I'd rather they do what is right for the game than be concerned with commitments that aren't right. It's just a question of what is, infact, right for Crowfall.

As a company, it is almost impossible to have a one year road map be entirely accurate. It is expected that these things change, and nothing about Kickstarter is legally binding in that regard.

So the question is really about what will acquire and retain the largest community and customer-base, in order to provide the most resources, to build the best game? 


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