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soulein

"They are stamina guys..." - T. Blair

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So here's the problem with Knight. Our primary (and class defining) right click ability costs the same resource we use for activating our other abilities (not a problem) AND it consumes the resource we use for Sprinting as well (problem). This means if we want to catch opponents who try to kite us, we can't use sprint to supplement our dash or badly malfunctioning and difficult to land chainpull, as it would leave us unable to follow up with any major damage. Just give us two stamina bars, one for abilities/block and one for sprinting. Call the resource bar something else and we'll be fine. 

Further, the five second duration on the blocking damage bonus is hardly enough time for us to make any use of it, as we're usually still trying to catch the enemy or are out of stamina from blocking. I'm aware that taking Shield Fighter's passive Molon Labe will add 2 extra seconds, which ARE helpful, but we shouldn't have to take a major just so our class functions smoothly. I think it would help if the damage bonus were to begin after you stop blocking and have a base duration of 7 seconds. 

I think the Knight will feel much better when armor works correctly, we get the upcoming melee attack fixes, and chainpull is fixed...but these two issues are still a huge weakness for the class which is inherent to their design. A few tweaks and we'll be fine, but they need to be taken seriously.

 

Edited by soulein

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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I guess I don't understand the value or significance of knights relying on stamina as a resource. What does this design decision contribute to the player experience or class concept?


Free Ginko.

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This is definitely a problem. Druids face something similar with Essence and being required to invest training time, gear experimentation, rune or passive slots to counter the PCM issue, which hits them hard due to how Essence works. If certain classes are, for whatever reason, going to be given vastly different mechanics, which have unique problems, challenges etc and cause them to function much differently than another class in the same circumstances, then this needs to be normalized or accounted for with the rest of the class's mechanics. So with the Knight example, a 2nd Stamina or other resource bar would be a reasonable solution.

Novel or interesting mechanics are not a bad thing. You just need to be aware of how it actually plays out in a pratical, real-world sense, and adjust accordingly.

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3 hours ago, soulein said:

So here's the problem with Knight. Our primary (and class defining) right click ability costs the same resource we use for activating our other abilities (not a problem) AND it consumes the resource we use for Sprinting as well (problem). This means if we want to catch opponents who try to kite us, we can't use sprint to supplement our dash or badly malfunctioning and difficult to land chainpull, as it would leave us unable to follow up with any major damage. Just give us two stamina bars, one for abilities/block and one for sprinting. Call the resource bar something else and we'll be fine. 

Further, the five second duration on the blocking damage bonus is hardly enough time for us to make any use of it, as we're usually still trying to catch the enemy or are out of stamina from blocking. I'm aware that taking Shield Fighter's passive Molon Labe will add 2 extra seconds, which ARE helpful, but we shouldn't have to take a major just so our class functions smoothly. I think it would help if the damage bonus were to begin after you stop blocking and have a base duration of 7 seconds. 

I think the Knight will feel much better when armor works correctly, we get the upcoming melee attack fixes, and chainpull is fixed...but these two issues are still a huge weakness for the class which is inherent to their design. A few tweaks and we'll be fine, but they need to be taken seriously.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with @soulein. I'll take what he said and put it in a more concise way.

  • Lets stop development and make a few tweaks to the Knight
  • Knights should get all the tools to counter anything they might come across. 
  • Instead of two stamina bar's lets make it three.
  • It would be a great use of time to add this element so that when they come back and make a true pass on the class they can reminisce about that time they spent a week giving the Knight 3 stamina bars.
  • The overall design goal here is a 1v1 game, where the tank leaves his group to chase down the pesky kiting classes.
  • It makes absolutely no sense that holding up a shield and running expend energy.  Does a tired boxer have trouble keeping his hands up? The answer is obviously no.
  • If the 3 stamina bars can't be done, perhaps we can have a magical shield. This way we can block the long rumored magical arrows.

 

 


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Stamina management is ok for me. If someone tries to kite me i run away and still do my duty as a tank keeping him away from other targets. I am more afraid of the upcoming future with the cleric and his block- just the best version of all blocks in theory

Lets wait and see^^

 

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32 minutes ago, NchDu said:

Stamina management is ok for me. If someone tries to kite me i run away and still do my duty as a tank keeping him away from other targets. I am more afraid of the upcoming future with the cleric and his block- just the best version of all blocks in theory

Lets wait and see^^

 

I don't think well-coordinated groups are going to be positioning in a way where they want their cleric having to use block too much :P 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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3 hours ago, Sarevok.Anchev said:

This sounds more like a management of stamina and gitgud issue.

It is an issue with stamina management, but more so that it's been over taxed. Sprinting, blocking, ability usage AND harvesting all being tied to one resource? Remember what the reasoning behind splitting the dodge rolls from stamina was? Yea, too many hands in the pie. When you have a class that's reduced to auto attacks for a large percentage of play and veteran knight players are telling you this isn't fun; you've got a problem. Auto attaking is a snooze fest, using your abilities is fun. I think giving the knights something akin to fury or energy would be a good way to go. Either that or change blocking to a kind of "dodge pip" or "overheat" system where you can only block a certain number of attacks before you have to rest and recharge.

5 hours ago, Tark said:

I wholeheartedly agree with @soulein.

Should've just ended it here, cause he wasn't asking for ANY of that other over exaggerated nonsense. "Hey guys, I think having everything loaded on one resource sucks, and certain other abilities need to be fixed" doesn't translate to "make me into a god".

Edited by Helix

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Knights are the only class that has only 1 resource pool (stamina) and it's the roughly the same size stamina pool as other classes that don't use stamina as their resource. I'm not a fan.

I made some suggestions regarding how to improve the Knight around the time Templar came around, before the knight had mana removed. 

Quote
Knight:

- The biggest issue I see with the Templar as it pertains to the Knight is the Templar getting "block". Each archetype has their own cool mechanic and that was the Knight's. Here's what I suggest to retool the knight and give him his own unique mechanic.

- First of all, let's rename the "mana" pool to the "valor" pool or "honor" pool or something that sounds like a knight. Mana is magic, knight's aren't magic users.

- The knight's cool mechanic will be the ability to protect others. "Block" already supposedly protects people directly behind the knight from attacks. Let's take this one step further. The knight needs an ability (or multiple abilities) that help redirect damage from group mates to himself. The "6" shout ability could be replaced with a targeted ability called "Allegiance" where the knight takes a portion of all of the damage from this person. The animation can stay the same - the knight shout would be the knight proclaiming allegiance. This kind of falls in line with your typical knight, kinda like how the big lady knight in Game of Thrones pledged her sword to the Starks. If the person the knight is pledged to starts taking heavy damage the knight can start blocking to help mitigate a lot of the damage that person takes. This is an AWESOME group mechanic for protecting high value targets in the group. 

- Another idea is to make the "C" ability redirect a portion of the damage taken from the entire group to the knight. This would be key for pushing through choke points where the entire group is likely to take lots of damage. 

- Next brings us to the knight's passive - any damage the knight redirects will restore Valor or Honor or whatever we're going to call it. This gives a really cool way to regain this stat. Knights have a huge problem with that right now. You can leave the resource generation on LMB but the main way would be through this new redirecting damage mechanic. 

 

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It's already well-established that stamina as a single resource is problematic because sprinting and harvesting reduce our combat resource.  The harvesting part isn't really a big deal.  The sprinting restriction is more problematic, but it appears to be a drawback of the class that we'll have to live with.

The crux of the matter, and the reason that knights feel resource-starved is that stamina-regen mechanics are not designed for stamina as a combat resource.   Stamina regenerates both out of combat and in combat in ticks.  Every n seconds, we recover x stamina.  However, if the knight is using any power that consumes stamina when the tick should occur, the stamina regen is prevented.   You can see this during harvesting, sprinting, and blocking.  No regen ticks are applied.  What is less obvious is that this also happens when attack powers that cost stamina are used.  So if I start a 4-4-4 knockdown combo, and a stamina regen tick happens during the animation for any of those powers, the stamina regen is prevented.  It doesn't seem to matter that the stamina cost is one-time or instant - the check seems to be "is there a power active that costs stamina? If yes, abort stamina regen."

So that's why we feel resource-starved in combat.  We're not getting the stamina regen one would expect, because using any power other than LMB prevents stamina regen ticks for the duration of the power.

It also doesn't help that third party resource restoration powers (the 3rd LMB healing orb from druids, rallying cry from legios, probably illumination from clerics) don't restore stamina to knights at all.

Edited by durenthal

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I don't have too much of an issue with the core concept of the stamina Knight. It adds a heavy feeling to the class since they have to choose between blocking, sprinting, and using abilities in combat.

I think some tuning could be done specifically to Knight stamina regen or maybe Knights can have their stamina ticks happen while they use abilities to make it feel better. Same thing with Myrmidon fury. It feels like crap right now because the tuning and PCM is screwed up. There's nothing wrong with the concept...just needs some tuning. 

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It doesn't make any sense. It is an outlier kinda like the druids essence. You can make gear that regens in combat resource, but wait it doesn't for knight, or for druid. 

It like many things in this game is thrown in and together on a whim, then defended like it is a sacred cow.

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It really just seems like convenience-oriented gamers who don't have much experience with games that require significant resource management so they struggle to use the knight efficiently.

I've played the knight through various stages of complaints from "knight experts" aka people that play the knight primarily but aren't actually very proficient at it. 

I've fought them and seen that they don't really even grasp basic concepts, the stamina change made the knight require a slightly higher skill-ceiling so it doesn't surprise me when people struggled with the easy iteration of knight, find even more problems with a version that takes a little more thought.

Pretty sure some people think the knight should be allowed to just hold rmb forever and walk around as permatank 24-7 with no real sense of danger.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I like a lot of the ideas put forward in this thread, but I think the least invasive solution would be to:

-Increase the base duration of the blocking damage bonus by 2 seconds.

-Split the Combat and Sprinting/Harvesting resource pools.

This is aside from a number of bug fixes and tweaks to stamina regen which are definitely necessary. 


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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Just now, VIKINGNAIL said:

It really just seems like convenience-oriented gamers who don't have much experience with games that require significant resource management so they struggle to use the knight efficiently.

The Knight is the only class which has to manage resources in this particular way. If you're advocating changing every other class to do the same thing, I'd be for the intent...I just don't think it's workable. Really, this is just an unintended consequence of a design experiment which hasn't been followed up on promptly (understandable).


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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3 minutes ago, soulein said:

The Knight is the only class which has to manage resources in this particular way. If you're advocating changing every other class to do the same thing, I'd be for the intent...I just don't think it's workable. Really, this is just an unintended consequence of a design experiment which hasn't been followed up on promptly (understandable).

I don't mind classes being different.  Just like a mana user has to focus on mana management, a knight can focus on sta management.  Before CF came out I got to test EQ landmark, it used single resource for everything and a lot of people struggled there as well, in this case the knight is just a class designed for people that can carefully calculate how much resources any given action in any given situation will take.  Similar to how a rogue might have managed its resources in a game like WoW.

All classes aren't created equal, knight uses one resource, many classes use 2.  Some classes had 2 trays, some had 1.  Some characters will get more slots, some will not. 

I'd rather the game have differences than homogenize everything so that managing resources has no unique flavor between characters.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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49 minutes ago, durenthal said:

The crux of the matter, and the reason that knights feel resource-starved is that stamina-regen mechanics are not designed for stamina as a combat resource.   Stamina regenerates both out of combat and in combat in ticks.  Every n seconds, we recover x stamina.  However, if the knight is using any power that consumes stamina when the tick should occur, the stamina regen is prevented.   You can see this during harvesting, sprinting, and blocking.  No regen ticks are applied.  What is less obvious is that this also happens when attack powers that cost stamina are used.  So if I start a 4-4-4 knockdown combo, and a stamina regen tick happens during the animation for any of those powers, the stamina regen is prevented.  It doesn't seem to matter that the stamina cost is one-time or instant - the check seems to be "is there a power active that costs stamina? If yes, abort stamina regen."

Sorta seems you have the issue all figured out. Just haven't made that high tier step up and to play around it to maximize game-play. 

But seriously, most of the stamina unique issues is more than likely unintended stuff that is from mixing other mechanics with stamina(also called bugs) and will be fixed eventually. 


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