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Godma

Make it pay to play

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1 hour ago, coolwaters said:

That's an extremely vague comment. Care to give some examples of games that were wonderful, ruined by a healthy subscription? Great games ruined by tying content consumption to investment in the game?

It's a ridiculous concept. The free to play model ruins gaming. This is especially true in a game with this level of asset destruction and PVP. I'll give you the opposite specific example of your vague comment: Shadowbane was a game many of us loved when it had a subscription. They went free-to-play and everyone had a dozen alt accounts. It custard ruined it.

 

False dilemma, this is a retail game, whose suggested that it be free to play? 

The Guild Wars model has shown successful, and the industry is almost wholly representative of the decline of subscription access.

Fee to pay games create a broken pay to win environment that robs the game of competitive inventive.

Beside the fact that nearly no mmo in history as switched to a subscription model from retail successfully, there are a myriad of articles on the failure of trifling mmo market schemes. Making subscriptions and essential sales additives is on the high end of superior games failing utterly. 

There's a series called death of a game if you want a detailed analysis. 


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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20 minutes ago, bahamutkaiser said:

False dilemma, this is a retail game, whose suggested that it be free to play? 

The Guild Wars model has shown successful, and the industry is almost wholly representative of the decline of subscription access.

Fee to pay games create a broken pay to win environment that robs the game of competitive inventive.

Beside the fact that nearly no mmo in history as switched to a subscription model from retail successfully, there are a myriad of articles on the failure of trifling mmo market schemes. Making subscriptions and essential sales additives is on the high end of superior games failing utterly. 

There's a series called death of a game if you want a detailed analysis. 

Reading your post now it doesn't actually sound like you even disagree with the post you initially quoted. 

And as I said, no change to a subscription model was suggested in that post. Only that the existing and always promiswd VIP subscription be made more desirable than simply buying more accounts.

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22 minutes ago, bahamutkaiser said:

Beside the fact that nearly no mmo in history as switched to a subscription model from retail successfully, there are a myriad of articles on the failure of trifling mmo market schemes. Making subscriptions and essential sales additives is on the high end of superior games failing utterly. 

maybe its not too late for crowfall tho, i agree that switching the model once the game has launched will not work most likely but its still early in development...

 

 


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I would happily pay a subscription.  I get so tired of "pay2win" arguments from people who can't be bothered to support the game at least at a basic amount.  As far as I am concerned, if you don't buy VIP you're kind of like taking a test drive or vacationing somewhere as opposed to vehicle ownership or residency.  It's fine to do that, but don't expect access to everything if you don't bear some of the responsibility.    

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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1 hour ago, coolwaters said:

Reading your post now it doesn't actually sound like you even disagree with the post you initially quoted. 

And as I said, no change to a subscription model was suggested in that post. Only that the existing and always promiswd VIP subscription be made more desirable than simply buying more accounts.

How is it not "desirable" now? There is an existing premium sub in the game, games routinely empty their population by trying to make their subs, or cash shop more "desirable".

Yes fanciful wishes pretend to be practical, when there's tons of MMOs whose outstanding qualities are single handedly ruined by cash grabbing. 

There's this erroneous assumption that you'll get better quality if you just offer the developer more money. It has never worked, evar, it always results in catastrophic failure. Because poor sales efficiency and marketing success reflect weak production practices, better games have come out with better product and with better bargains by being efficient, not by begging for money to correct their shoddy production planning. 

A healthy and successful production makes money because of economy of scale, not milking whales. 

Edited by bahamutkaiser

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17 minutes ago, bahamutkaiser said:

How is it not "desirable" now?

This has been explained ad nauseum, but here goes again:

Buying alt accounts still grants far more content from the big 3 areas of gameplay (harvesting, crafting, combat) per dollar than the subscription grants. Economically rational spenders will act rationally and will buy alt accounts, which I see as quite bad for the gaming experience as compared to simply allowing that content to be consumed on a single account. In short: an account != a player.

Its about that complicated (not at all complicated)

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Subscriptions drive players away. Admittedly, it'd drive me away. I love the game and its progress, and will support it when I find it prudent, but I will not pay monthly to play because, for me, that's value lost. And, honestly, it's bad for the game.

The game is good when there are plenty of players to play with.

The game makes money when players join because the game is good.

Subscription fees will drive away a number of players, AKA casuals.

The game does not have plenty of players.

The game does not make money.

At least, that's my train of thought, but it is widely known that pay-to-play models have decreased and are heavily disliked by the majority. Some people, I'm sure, are willing to pay to play a good MMO, but if the majority aren't... well, you'll just have an MO.

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That isn't a problem, neither need to be purchased, and ACE makes money either way. The important thing is that the core game satisfies the entire audience, that way the game survives, because maintaining a body of consumers is more important then milking whales. 

Your mistake is imagining you've come up with some clever exception to an established industry pitfall, but your fixation with best exploit practices, and how to make intended pay to win better then unintended pay to win overlooks the primary shortcoming, of pay to win being a problem which should be marginalized on all accounts, not matched elsewhere. 

What ACE advertised was shallow character progression and skill and strategy oriented gameplay. This is what makes a genuinely good game, and what should be pursued.

 The premium model doesn't need to be better, and the account accumulation doesn't need to be countered; the gameplay needs to be solid, and playing the game needs to be the overwhelmingly efficient way to enjoy the game.

Any other design strategy is an exercise in failure. 


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29 minutes ago, Dondagora said:

Subscriptions drive players away. Admittedly, it'd drive me away. I love the game and its progress, and will support it when I find it prudent, but I will not pay monthly to play because, for me, that's value lost. And, honestly, it's bad for the game.

The game is good when there are plenty of players to play with.

The game makes money when players join because the game is good.

Subscription fees will drive away a number of players, AKA casuals.

The game does not have plenty of players.

The game does not make money.

At least, that's my train of thought, but it is widely known that pay-to-play models have decreased and are heavily disliked by the majority. Some people, I'm sure, are willing to pay to play a good MMO, but if the majority aren't... well, you'll just have an MO.

If GW2, WoW, ESO and BDO relied only on box sales those games would cease to exist. Box sales are a tiny drop in the bucket when it comes to staffing and operation costs. Monthly subs keeps WoW alive while cash shops keep the other aforementioned games. They need sustainable income and crowfall is no different. Can CF implement a cash shop? Sure, maybe they will. Implementing a cash shop and convincing people to buy shiny things is no easy task. It also takes man hours and resources to populate the store with said content. I remember jtodd saying he wasn't sure if it was worth it or not considering their manpower. 

Just coerce people into buying VIP. That's how they'll pay the bills and keep the lights on.

Edited by Helix

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11 minutes ago, Helix said:

If GW2, WoW, ESO and BDO relied only on box sales those games would cease to exist. Box sales are a tiny drop in the bucket when it comes to staffing and operation costs. Monthly subs keeps WoW alive while cash shops keep the other aforementioned games. They need sustainable income and crowfall is no different. Can CF implement a cash shop? Sure, maybe they will. Implementing a cash shop and convincing people to buy shiny thing is no easy task. It also takes man hours and resources to populate the store with said content. I remember jtodd saying he wasn't sure if it was worth it or not considering their manpower. 

I'm not saying rely only on box sales, and didn't mean to come off that way, but I don't think subscriptions are the way to go. They're too annoying for my tastes, and likely many other people's tastes. I'm open to any ways Crowfall can use to make money, just not subscriptions.

 

Just a thought I had: High-Reward campaigns. Each player pays, let's say, 5 dollars to enter this special campaign world which has a concentration of unique or rare materials. They wouldn't be too often, maybe one per 3 months, but it'd promise some good loot if you win. Not too taxing on the in-game economy, and is relatively cheap way to get decently reliable income from large and competitive guilds, as well as equally accessible to all players who have some pocket cash to join into these rewarding campaigns.

 

So, while this may not be the perfect option, I'm just saying that there are a variety of ways to incentivise supporting the game without a sub fee, nor relying solely on box sales.

 

Edit: and yes, definitely make VIP worth it.

Edited by Dondagora

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39 minutes ago, bahamutkaiser said:

Your mistake is imagining you've come up with some clever exception to an established industry pitfall, but your fixation with best exploit practices, and how to make intended pay to win better then unintended pay to win overlooks the primary shortcoming, of pay to win being a problem which should be marginalized on all accounts, not matched elsewhere. 

That's as vague, conclusory and kind of ridiculous.

To the extent a VIP subscription that gave better content access than a non-sub, extremely cheap, one time purchase would be "pay to win" (truly a ridiculous phrase), then the alt account nonsense we have now is far more "pay to win."

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5 hours ago, Dondagora said:

Just a thought I had: High-Reward campaigns. Each player pays, let's say, 5 dollars to enter this special campaign world which has a concentration of unique or rare materials. They wouldn't be too often, maybe one per 3 months, but it'd promise some good loot if you win. Not too taxing on the in-game economy, and is relatively cheap way to get decently reliable income from large and competitive guilds, as well as equally accessible to all players who have some pocket cash to join into these rewarding campaigns.

The very definition of pay to win.  Special content not available to everyone hidden behind a paywall.


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People argue that f2p is the way to go but for what genre? If you look at MMOs both #1 and #2 are sub based. In my opinion f2p games tend to suffer from delayed updates due to having to release a cash shop item every month to keep the company making that $$ (this could be argued with different dev teams).

Personally I think subscriptions bring more dedicated players to a game plus no one has a f2p vs p2p advantage. If anyone was worried about the reduction of people interested in trying a game where they have to dish out £35(1)+£10(pcm) then just have a trial system with a trial client + 30 free days, offer these players a % discount on a game purchase before the time is up.

It's ALWAYS easier/better to reduce a price rather than raise it.

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On 7/27/2017 at 8:03 AM, coolwaters said:

That's an extremely vague comment. Care to give some examples of games that were wonderful, ruined by a healthy subscription? Great games ruined by tying content consumption to investment in the game?

It's a ridiculous concept. The free to play model ruins gaming. This is especially true in a game with this level of asset destruction and PVP. I'll give you the opposite specific example of your vague comment: Shadowbane was a game many of us loved when it had a subscription. They went free-to-play and everyone had a dozen alt accounts. It custard ruined it.

 

I agree with this. F2P really seems to be a bad direction for mmos as a whole. It seems to end up with developers chasing the dollar (Understandably so) and not wanting to focus time and money into systems that wont yield a return on investment. If the game was F2P I would have honestly skipped on it, glad it's not.

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On 7/27/2017 at 2:40 PM, Helix said:

If GW2, WoW, ESO and BDO relied only on box sales those games would cease to exist. Box sales are a tiny drop in the bucket when it comes to staffing and operation costs. Monthly subs keeps WoW alive while cash shops keep the other aforementioned games. They need sustainable income and crowfall is no different. Can CF implement a cash shop? Sure, maybe they will. Implementing a cash shop and convincing people to buy shiny things is no easy task. It also takes man hours and resources to populate the store with said content. I remember jtodd saying he wasn't sure if it was worth it or not considering their manpower. 

Just coerce people into buying VIP. That's how they'll pay the bills and keep the lights on.

Uh, what?

https://crowfall.com/en/store/


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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6 minutes ago, Helix said:

An in-game cash shop, i.e. like guild wars 2, where you make small money purchases. Don't see many people dropping 5 grand on a doll house to play in their safe spaces, but who knows.

You mean like mounts, pack pigs, decorations....?


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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3 hours ago, Svenn said:

You mean like mounts, pack pigs, decorations....?

"Know your customers". Think they'll be many killers who pick up decorations for their ek playhouse? I doubt it. We also don't know how mounts and pack pigs will actually function in the game, whether they'll drop on death. If they drop on death, I doubt people will spend $15 for the potential to get robbed of RL currency by other players, but who knows. The cash shops work in those other games because they mostly sell QoL type stuff. Who knows what the shop on the web or the game will look like in 4-6 months time. Maybe they have all this sorted out or maybe they won't. All I know is that they definitely want people to purchase VIP and I remember jtodd saying in the past that he isn't sure they have the manpower to spend on creating entire armor sets vs. number of people actually purchasing them.

Edited by Helix

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On 1/8/2017 at 7:02 PM, Helix said:

"Know your customers". Think they'll be many killers who pick up decorations for their ek playhouse? I doubt it. We also don't know how mounts and pack pigs will actually function in the game, whether they'll drop on death. If they drop on death, I doubt people will spend $15 for the potential to get robbed of RL currency by other players, but who knows. The cash shops work in those other games because they mostly sell QoL type stuff. Who knows what the shop on the web or the game will look like in 4-6 months time. Maybe they have all this sorted out or maybe they won't. All I know is that they definitely want people to purchase VIP and I remember jtodd saying in the past that he isn't sure they have the manpower to spend on creating entire armor sets vs. number of people actually purchasing them.

The store already have more than "ek playhouses" as for months well you could take a look on the descriptions of the mounts and it prefectly addresses that "issue" you talk of:

"It can be used in-game to change the cosmetic appearance of your mount.  Purchase of this skin also includes one mount figurine that can be used to magically summon a mount of this type."

All of the mounts have this as part of their description

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