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Lessons I've learned from albion.


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You're going to ask me "why compare crowfall to a poorly made socksty tablet game", and the truth is both of these games have A LOT in common.

  • They both revolve heavily around harvesting, crafting and pvp territorial control.
  • Progression is heavily harvesting / crafting based.
  • They have large sprawling progression "skill lines".

The core of both games revolve around harvesting and crafting, however albion has a slight edge on crowfall when it comes to this.

Obtaining gear in albion is significantly easier in comparison. It only took  roughly 10 hours of lax game play to obtain t4. Someone that was more serious could most likely do it even faster. In albion, harvesting and crafting (significantly simpler than crowfall) is actually fun to do, you still have to specialize and itemize to get the full benefit from harvesting, but those that don't aren't banging their head against a wall. Albion has followed the "easy to gain, easy to lose" mindset that I hope crowfall will eventually jump on. Basically if gear is easy to acquire, you should be able to lose it as equally easy; which is the case when it comes to pvp. When you die in pvp, you can potentially lose everything. This keeps the harvest -> craft -> die -> repeat loop alive. Inter-dependency is alive and well in Albion, but it's way more realistic. 

Progression is also significantly faster, and it's something that felt jarring in comparison to the sluggish pace of crowfall's progression system. I forgot how much I actually enjoy seeing my account / character progress.

It's not all rainbows and unicorns in albion, there are things I hope I never see. Like dev's participating in RMT.

Things I'd like to see crowfall take away from albion:

  • Faster progression skill line progression.
  • Shallower harvesting, crafting curve. Faster access to gear and FULL LOOT / INVENTORY drop to compensate.
  • Alternatives to harvesting for more combat enthusiastic players; not sure how they'd do this without trivializing crafters. Loot does drop in albion, but it's not often enough to de-emphasize crafters and harvesting.
Edited by izkimar
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11 minutes ago, izkimar said:
  1. Faster progression skill line progression.
  2. Shallower harvesting, crafting curve. Faster access to gear and FULL LOOT / INVENTORY drop to compensate.
  3. Alternatives to harvesting for more combat enthusiastic players; not sure how they'd do this without trivializing crafters. Loot does drop in albion, but it's not often enough to de-emphasize crafters and harvesting
  1. The speed is fine as it is I think. I don't see the need to make it faster. The skill training is meant as a replacement for shallow leveling curve and it does that just fine imo.
  2. Can't be deep enough. If I want a shallow crafting and gathering system I will play WoW. There are people who enjoy this kind of gameplay solely, so please do not make suggestions that take gameplay away from those players pretty please. If you do not like it, do something else in the game. It is an mmorpg after all.
  3. This is a game that is mainly focusing on groups and guilds. If you need armor and weapons, make friends with crafters or simply join a guild. This is not a game that is meant to be played solo.

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13 minutes ago, Caenth said:
  1. Can't be deep enough. If I want a shallow crafting and gathering system I will play WoW. There are people who enjoy this kind of gameplay solely, so please do not make suggestions that take gameplay away from those players pretty please. If you do not like it, do something else in the game. It is an mmorpg after all.

Perhaps shallow was the wrong word to use. I don't want less intricate crafting, just a faster pace to acquire gear. I feel if RNG failure was reduced or removed this would also go towards speeding it up. Right now it takes what, 7-8 metal bars to craft a weapon? That's a few hours of harvesting (assuming you're cherry picking resource nodes) to craft a weapon that will break in 5-6 deaths. Even longer for one suit of armor and that depends on the resource.

If you acquired resources faster (or more easier), obtained gear quicker and lost it quicker you'd still preserve the integrity of harvesters and crafters. The demand would be higher since the tenure of items would be shorter (either because of durability or they're being looted).

Edited by izkimar
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well with item decay and full item loot (in the dregs at least) there will be a somewhat quality (tier) standard for those rulesets. Even if someone imports a badass set, at one point the full loot or at last the item decay get's the equipment.

So in terms of quality there will be a standard tier for most players since quantity is more important than quality at this moment - given the fact that whole item sets take hours of crafting and gathering to pull of. Exceptions are groups (or individuals) which manage to output high quality gear constantly which requires a lot of management, even more resources and high group activity which I doubt oh so many guilds will manage to pull off. 

But I agree that there should be at least better basic items sets (maybe with higher decay or so) in order to balance this situation a bit. Keep the complicated crafts and leave the bonuses as they are. Just add more basic items to make things a little easier. 

You get the wolves...lots of wolves...and sheep that wear armor and have developed an appetite for blood soaked grass - dubanka

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4 minutes ago, Thyr said:

well with item decay and full item loot (in the dregs at least) there will be a somewhat quality (tier) standard for those rulesets. Even if someone imports a badass set, at one point the full loot or at last the item decay get's the equipment.

So in terms of quality there will be a standard tier for most players since quantity is more important than quality at this moment - given the fact that whole item sets take hours of crafting and gathering to pull of. Exceptions are groups (or individuals) which manage to output high quality gear constantly which requires a lot of management, even more resources and high group activity which I doubt oh so many guilds will manage to pull off. 

But I agree that there should be at least better basic items sets (maybe with higher decay or so) in order to balance this situation a bit. Keep the complicated crafts and leave the bonuses as they are. Just add more basic items to make things a little easier. 

I'd rather they just get rid of the basic item sets / tier and replace it with advanced white. Lower the requirements to compensate. The whole basic tier sticks out like a sore thumb to me for some reason. The whole basic / advanced divide should go away IMO.

Edited by izkimar
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43 minutes ago, izkimar said:

Perhaps shallow was the wrong word to use. I don't want less intricate crafting, just a faster pace to acquire gear. I feel if RNG failure was reduced or removed this would also go towards speeding it up. Right now it takes what, 7-8 metal bars to craft a weapon? That's a few hours of harvesting (assuming you're cherry picking resource nodes) to craft a weapon that will break in 5-6 deaths. Even longer for one suit of armor and that depends on the resource.

i create an advanced slag weapon in 30mins with resource farming and im not skilled in that things. A Weapon breakes after 15+ death normally they hold 4 days.
And slag Advanced Weapons are good enough.

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48 minutes ago, izkimar said:

I feel if RNG failure was reduced or removed this would also go towards speeding it up. Right now it takes what, 7-8 metal bars to craft a weapon?

You are forgetting crafting stations and factories. Remember, the current crafting process is mainly meant as the experimentation phase.

39 minutes ago, Thyr said:

Just add more basic items to make things a little easier.

Isn't this the basic armor, weapons and the rest that currently is already in the game? It certainly gets your started. Or do I misunderstand what you meant?

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12 minutes ago, DravoiX said:

i create an advanced slag weapon in 30mins with resource farming and im not skilled in that things. A Weapon breakes after 15+ death normally they hold 4 days.
And slag Advanced Weapons are good enough.

Slag advanced weapons/armor from slag might not be a thing come release. In fact, I kinda hope they aren't. If you can just get by with slag weapons it would completely undermine the need for white and above advanced.

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2 minutes ago, izkimar said:

Slag advanced weapons/armor from slag might not be a thing come release. In fact, I kinda hope they aren't. If you can just get by with slag weapons it would completely undermine the need for white and above advanced.

first slag is needed for basic stuff.
also with slag u can only create grey stuff low tier advanced wep.

That is also my last reply because you should play the game before writing that stuff. Because all that you mentioned is in Crowfall.

1 hour ago, izkimar said:
  • Faster progression skill line progression.
  • Shallower harvesting, crafting curve. Faster access to gear and FULL LOOT / INVENTORY drop to compensate.
  • Alternatives to harvesting for more combat enthusiastic players; not sure how they'd do this without trivializing crafters. Loot does drop in albion, but it's not often enough to de-emphasize crafters and harvesting.

That is all in. Im a PVP player and i HARVEST players and that is effective.

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I agree with OP. Easy to gain, easy to lose sounds like a good system to me. The crafting system can remain deep and complex, just require less mats per piece of gear. The devs keep saying factories and thralls will change everything, so I'm waiting on those systems before I make my final judgment. 

Also I would add, another thing to learn from Albion: please don't have crap server performance. I've seen some horror videos on YT that made me want to stay the hell away from that game :P

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Rikutatis said:

I agree with OP. Easy to gain, easy to lose sounds like a good system to me. The crafting system can remain deep and complex, just require less mats per piece of gear. The devs keep saying factories and thralls will change everything, so I'm waiting on those systems before I make my final judgment. 

Also I would add, another thing to learn from Albion: please don't have crap server performance. I've seen some horror videos on YT that made me want to stay the hell away from that game :P

Here's the issue:

If you make competitive gear take hours and hours to craft, and it can be lost it in a second, many players are less likely to log back in.  Preferences aside, that's a fact Jack.  Now, CF is going to have CWs, which should allow you some choice here, and thus will address the preferences of those who can grind a game hours on end and those who can play 10 hours a week.  I anticipate CW rulesets will go a long way to solve some of these issues.  

Here's what I don't want:

I never want to play this or any other game that feels like work--that is tedious and fiddly and which I am forced to do a bunch of unfun chores so I can eventually do fun stuff.  That being said, I understand that in an MMORPG there will be some grind, and I accept that.  However, if it feels like I am at work, I'm done.  Old SB had a nice way about it--leveling and getting ready for the fight as a character was not tedious and I enjoyed it.  AO is okay in that regard, but I would submit that, tablet game or not, the level of grind in that game is very, very high.       

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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3 hours ago, DravoiX said:

first slag is needed for basic stuff.
also with slag u can only create grey stuff low tier advanced wep.

That is also my last reply because you should play the game before writing that stuff. Because all that you mentioned is in Crowfall.

That is all in. Im a PVP player and i HARVEST players and that is effective.

Why do you think they call crowfall, harvestfall? Oooh boy, you're gonna hate it when they change it so slag can't make advanced weapons/armor. I remember reading some where that's just a stop-gap (since copper ore can also make basic stuff).

Hell, I absolutely hate harvesting and I'm abusing the slag (call da cops), but I'm not blind to the fact that this isn't how it's supposed to be.

 

Edited by Helix
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Ultimately, the challenge is simple and can be stated like a question. 

Can you make a game that is hardcore in both PvP and Crafting? The primary difference between AO crafting and CF crafting is blueprints and thralls. Hybridizing an intense harvesting and crafting system with ways to mass produce is absolutely critical, otherwise the game drags on day-to-day as an attempt to Fame farm and harvest.

Blueprints are an amazing idea and must be executed well in CF, IMO, lest the PvP get sidetracked. The more you incentivize individual harvesting over the Points of Interest gathering, the more you incentivize players to avoid each other. If we all have to individually harvest essentially all the time, then we just end up avoiding each other. Albion suffers from this. You can certainly have the whole "explore and find rare nodes" but without fixed point objectives (mines, quarries, etc.) you cut out a massive amount of PvP.

Combine the immense, unavoidable harvesting and crafting grind of AO with near uniform resource distribution in a zone, and you get a bunch of harvesters running in circles claiming to play a PvP game. Instancing the GvG as battlegrounds also completely separates AO from CF. So far in my AO experience, I have only had fun fights in the dungeons, which come closest to fixed point objectives in the game.

I have not experienced the 5v5, and I will never be able to competitively, because I do not have a 10:1 ratio of harvester/crafters to equip me.

Edit: Also, AO has flagging systems and safe zones, two things thankfully not a part of CF vision.

Edited by mctan
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The Devs have stated multiple times wait until factories have come out to compare crafting systems. So I would advise wait until they do and after playing with them for a while relist your complaints with the system if they remain.

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10 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

I agree with OP. Easy to gain, easy to lose sounds like a good system to me. The crafting system can remain deep and complex, just require less mats per piece of gear. The devs keep saying factories and thralls will change everything, so I'm waiting on those systems before I make my final judgment. 

Also I would add, another thing to learn from Albion: please don't have crap server performance. I've seen some horror videos on YT that made me want to stay the hell away from that game :P

Factories and thralls need lots of mats to run. 

I would rather they boost volumes for trained harvesters, than lower costs to produce.  Getting more stuff feels good, getting lower baseline quantities and the higher quantities with training feels good. More stuff would also mean that harvesters are better targets.

Right now one of the issues with harvesting is the lack of distinction between the trained and untrained.  If you want fast to get, fast to lose, bumping harvested quantities is a solid way to go about upping the fast to get side of things.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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I'll admit I don't know a ton about Albion but one of the things I noticed is that a lot of the harvesting in that game is done in safe zones. Meaning that you're quite literally just mindlessly farming things.

That's not really going to exist in Crowfall. Sure we're going to be farming harvesting materials but there's going to be much more dynamic gameplay having to escort your caravans, deal with gankers, take objectives, or kill players yourself. Harvesting in Crowfall is likely going to be one of the main activities we do in the game day to day. However I don't think it's going to feel like a mindless "kill 1000 boars" grindfest.

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18 hours ago, Regulus said:

Here's the issue:

If you make competitive gear take hours and hours to craft, and it can be lost it in a second, many players are less likely to log back in.  Preferences aside, that's a fact Jack.  Now, CF is going to have CWs, which should allow you some choice here, and thus will address the preferences of those who can grind a game hours on end and those who can play 10 hours a week.  I anticipate CW rulesets will go a long way to solve some of these issues.  

   

Not entirely true, chances are you will just use cheaper equipment, travel in packs, and hunt players who have that "competitive gear." Economics will also drive what is "competitive." verse what is better.

The durability system Crowfall has is.. terrible. You could technically have some break while in the middle of fight, which should never happen. It's better to have a system where the player knows exactly when something is going to break. You die, you've lost, it broke, buy some more, cycle of life.

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2 hours ago, Impossum said:

Not entirely true, chances are you will just use cheaper equipment, travel in packs, and hunt players who have that "competitive gear." Economics will also drive what is "competitive." verse what is better.

The durability system Crowfall has is.. terrible. You could technically have some break while in the middle of fight, which should never happen. It's better to have a system where the player knows exactly when something is going to break. You die, you've lost, it broke, buy some more, cycle of life.

True, some will do what you've described.  Many, still, are less likely to log back in.   This is what I believe CW ruleset, hopefully to a large extent, will solve.  Currently, based on what I understand the game to be (or will be), I don't think that I will have time or patience for anything beyond the outer bands.  Also, ACE has said that they are looking into the possibility that they have been over reliant on gear in their design (paraphrase)--so items such as the durability system will likely be address for all CWs.  

 

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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8 minutes ago, Regulus said:

True, some will do what you've described.  Many, still, are less likely to log back in.   This is what I believe CW ruleset, hopefully to a large extent, will solve.  Currently, based on what I understand the game to be (or will be), I don't think that I will have time or patience for anything beyond the outer bands.  Also, ACE has said that they are looking into the possibility that they have been over reliant on gear in their design (paraphrase)--so items such as the durability system will likely be address for all CWs.  

 

All of the rulesets won't change the fact that we're going to lose gear. The part that is tricky is the rate of lost. It would be better if lower quality gear was easier to mass produce, this way you wouldn't need durability. 

My only argument is that durability, while you may have more time with that item, it's going to feel really bad if you lose it during a fight. Also durability is competing on some level with other stats you might want. So it's really going to drive equipment into a really frustrating place.

I don't want to carry backups, instead I rather store them at a fort. I would rather risk my whole set up than replace each piece at different times.

Instead of making a campaign rule set and reading those rules are read aloud, it would be be better if we understood those rules simply from the mechanics themselves. The outer bands will have lower quality resource, but easier to mass produce. The raw increase in production will make it so loss isn't as big of a deal.

Right now there isn't much of a difference on the rate of making a orange verse a green. After gathering the materials the time investment is the same. Is this a problem? To me it looks like Artcraft has tried to address that a little bit with armor but not with weapons. It would probably be a good idea if the rarity of an item was also based on how many additional parts are used.

Easy come, easy go. If it's hot doing down, it's going to hurt going out. The system right now makes it look like... it doesn't really want to delete your gear.. but has it to =(

Best to rip it off like a band-aid.

If durability has to stay then it would be a very good idea to make the deletion of gear on death. Carrying around a bunch of near broken loot would be the same as what I'm proposing. The only difference is that newly crafted gear could survive a few deaths depending on it's durability. If durability equals less than zero on death, then delete. The dregs could then impose a harsher durability loss to the point of making durability a worthless stat.

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