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Angelmar

The Standard Bearer Meta

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A lot of discussion of the influence of standard bearer right now, with a lot of calls to nerf it. I'm not a particular fan of the rune, but, IMO, the imbalance is an artifact of (1) basic/slag weapons and no training and (2) small size of the testing population (and thus smaller scale fights).

In group fights with even numbers above 5v5, especially once we get a little training and some better weapons standard bearer will go back to being a perk and a choice. 

Some examples: 3v5 and 5v5 with UDL.

 

A larger scale setting.  Roughly 10v10s. Right now you need a few folks to be able to burst through the Standard Bearer heals, if (as with rangers) you cant really force them over 15m from their standard bearer drop points.  Once it gets past teams of 3 and towards 5, bursting down dps characters is possible.  

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And even if you're in a small scale duel with folks running standard bearer...... you can always throw a bomb at the problem :)

 

Later, 15 or 30 days down the road when we get a bit of training and crafters with more pips, the raw DPS will greatly nullify standard bearer.  On the "live" environment with blue/purple gear, rangers and fessors are still hitting for 1-2k+ regularly.

Does standard bearer break the 1v1 dueling meta? Yes.  Its a must have.  It probably at least needs to be restricted to tanks so the rogue and scouts are not able to run it when they're fighting for intel--an area where the game likely will mostly be fought in 1v1s and 2v2s

Edited by angelmar

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Your point is well taken that Standard Bearer is likely only wildly imbalanced in an early "meta" (I hate myself every time I use that word) because (1) training is deficient to nonexistent and (2) weapons are basic or slag. Your point that in a developed game the rune will lose much of its "OP-ness" compared to the current state of the game is also accurate.

The counter-point is that most of the other discs are not wildly imbalanced in the early stages of training and with slag weapons. Why should this one be?

Another counter-point is that the reduced practical effect (power) of Standard Bearer once full training and awesome weapons are in the game will also diminish the "power" of all other mitigation and healing runes to a far greater degree as they are already far less effective than SB. Higher DPS will hit them all to the same relative degree, leaving SB ahead by a far margin.

It needs a nerf post HP buff IMO. Also needs a longer CD and some class restriction to tanks IMO.

Edited by coolwaters

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Its not so much that Standard Bearer is crazy strong... which with the hp boost it is a bit abnormally strong. Its that it's extremely powerful when combo'd with a bunch of damage mitigations from Rune casters + passives. 

 

Another problem is very few people actually want to run execute builds anymore because it makes them super squishy.  A buffed up Ranger, Fessor, and Templar with execute builds can actually burst out low hp targets if people are have defensive buffs down. I mean Templars with slag weapons can hit back to back 2k executes... and nothing really survives that... Until it gets block by 70% by defensive buffs.  Then that 2k hit turns into 600 dmg which up against the 250-500 hp per second(depends on class) banner gives. Makes it very hard to bring targets down especially if you add in healers.

That said once hp pools revert that 250-500 hp heal is gonna be 100-150 which wont really be that super stronk. 

Edited by SirGeorge

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Yea, I agree, I think it's too early to call for nerfs or changes. Everything is in flux right now, including the current hp values. If the hp pool values remain this high, SB could certainly benefit from a slight nerf, but if they reduce hp pools again, it could stay how it is. I also wouldn't mind if SB could only be used by tanks and supports, but not dps and specialists. Makes sense and gives more differentiation to class roles. 

Also good videos! I only watched the second one, but it looked like a fun fight. 


 

 

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5 minutes ago, Rikutatis said:

Also good videos! I only watched the second one, but it looked like a fun fight. 

Riku, as a part time druid player you do yourself a disservice if you miss out on that last video.

It's short, but I suspect cathartic for a druid player :)

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29 minutes ago, angelmar said:

Riku, as a part time druid player you do yourself a disservice if you miss out on that last video.

It's short, but I suspect cathartic for a druid player :)

funny, but hardly representative of a 'real' fight


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I think SB is a little overpowered right now. I wouldn't mind it if rallying banner only healed allies... but it wouldn't make much sense because it's technically a banner that you put down. More training and learning how to get around it will help in the future. I think good rolled slag weapons are fine, but basic weapons definitely cannot break it. *cough* unfortunately in the first video.. only Soulein had an advanced weapon.

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14 minutes ago, Unfolded said:

I think SB is a little overpowered right now. I wouldn't mind it if rallying banner only healed allies... but it wouldn't make much sense because it's technically a banner that you put down. More training and learning how to get around it will help in the future. I think good rolled slag weapons are fine, but basic weapons definitely cannot break it. *cough* unfortunately in the first video.. only Soulein had an advanced weapon.

That's a solid suggestion.

Having unloaded into you several times with you running RC + SB + the passives du joure, (I'm guessing dig in, overwhelming odds, armor of faith), I am confident that a single player (and many times not 2 players) with a slag weapon and current training levels could not ever kill the target. Perhaps if you literally didn't attack they could eventually cheese you out of the banner / RC bubble, but the point remains. Certainly you'd be able to kill them easily with the DPS ranger Left Click pumps out long before then.

Edited by coolwaters

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It was unintentionally buffed by the HP increase. It'll get nerfed once the HP increase is reverted when factories come online. Question is if ACE wants to balance it in the meantime. Champion Ultimate Warrior heal falls into this category also. 

It would help if the banner actually had a graphic and ground targeting circle so you could attempt to net/chain pull targets out of it to kill them. 

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2 minutes ago, blazzen said:

 

It would help if the banner actually had a graphic and ground targeting circle so you could attempt to net/chain pull targets out of it to kill them. 

+1 to this! I thought the same thing with Nova. Just adding a graphic to Nova was a huge nerf. I'd like to see how these powers are used with graphics installed before we hit them with the nerf bat too hard. 

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People keep saying it will get nerfed with better armor, and I'm not arguing that they did increase HP by 75%; however one of the livestreams Mark said that health pool values should actually rise above what we currently have once constitution bonuses are applied properly.  Does that mean we are right back to where we started?

On this one, I think the best suggestion that others have made is put a graphic to the actual banner.  Leave everything else alone until attributes are fully integrated and working.

 


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Has anyone tested the HPS throughput potential on SB compared to other disciplines and powers? 

A few minor tweaks would go a long way toward balance -- making the banner visible and reducing the uptime a bit would help. Right now I think it has 66% or 75% uptime. 


Free Ginko.

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Balance changes can't be to dynamic of a change.  Number values and lists are super easy to change when balancing but changing the mechanics is a bit time consuming which usually won't happen. NP being a rarity.

We also have to account for multiple people using it at once.  Sure we can limit it to friendlies only.. which would be a solid stop to its insane 1v1 power. But in group play that just means 2 people have to pick up SB. which people were already doing to mitigate the downtime window. 

A feature I think would be awesome would be for SB to be like champs second wind, where you have to not get hit for 4 second before the heal is applied and if you do get hit while healing the effect wears off.  But again that's a mechanical fix and not likely to happen.

I think the easiest band-aid would them to change the % amount healed. instead of 5% every second.  maybe 2% to balance out the 75% hp boost.  Visibility would be nice. But don't think it would help where pulls are not really working :P. 

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The explosion in the 3rd video is pretty hilarious.  Seems like even with even fights and larger numbers Standard Bearer's % heal is still an issue.... focused fire from the W folks and catching folks out of position can drop still get kills, but when the standard bearers are down and pulse it seems like the TTK remains very very high.  

Chaos was able to stay up a long time and I didnt see many healers there.

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4 hours ago, scree said:

Also forgetting that we don't have consistent anti-healing tech in-game yet. Assassin should bring an interesting counterpoint to people who think they can heal through damage.

like fireball on confessor? =)


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