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Angelmar

The Standard Bearer Meta

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The problem with the current anti healing tech:

- single target anti heal debuffs only VS a wealth of AoE heals or single target ones that blast through

- low values, limited to no scaling


we have:

- blackmantle on far too slow, long cooldown confessor meteor [fixed 500 value....less than one heal now]

- mortal strike on champion LMB. good luck with that. 25% heal reduction. can only hit one target these days, used to be 3 before damage split adjustment.

- plaguelord discpline, all single target, non scaling, moderate to high cooldowns. half and half between small blocks or expose interaction vs heal.

we lack:

- black mask's shadowmantle and other possible powers on the stone

- details on the assassin's 'disease' poison infect effect [flat? %? total block?]

again: all the ones we missing are still single target. no AoE effect. no "essence burn" level of total heal block effect etc 

[wtb essence burn as offensive debuff for scimitar druid so bad]

Edited by Tinnis

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On 14/08/2017 at 5:17 AM, ViperMDF said:

The explosion in the 3rd video is pretty hilarious.  Seems like even with even fights and larger numbers Standard Bearer's % heal is still an issue.... focused fire from the W folks and catching folks out of position can drop still get kills, but when the standard bearers are down and pulse it seems like the TTK remains very very high.  

Chaos was able to stay up a long time and I didnt see many healers there.

What is making people this tanky isn't just standard bearer or healing. It's a combination of factors, including standard bearer, healing, the reset skill trees and lack of good weapons like Angelmar mentioned before, and a bunch of other sustain/mitigation discs, all of which can stack. But tbh I much rather prefer this tankiness than what we had before when all it took was one absolution and a couple LMBs to your face to insta-gib you. 

The anti-healing is fine as well. Plague lord can be fairly useful if used well and at the right time. It's not a spam disc, you just need to execute it well. If anti-healing is too powerful you pretty much condemn the support classes, which already tend to get the short end of the stick, to be even more frustrating. The amount of healing in the game is fine.

The melee tanks do seem to be struggling to find a purpose though. The best CCs seem to belong to DPS (fessor and ranger) and to some extent the druid (root), and discs allow everyone to be tanky to some extent. You need high burst to burn through this tankiness, so what is the purpose of tanks? I think CCs should be taken away from DPS and given to tanks for the most part. Something like:

DPS- dmg and mobility

Tanks- CC and survivability

Support-healing and either mobility or survivability


 

 

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4 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

The melee tanks do seem to be struggling to find a purpose though. The best CCs seem to belong to DPS (fessor and ranger) and to some extent the druid (root), and discs allow everyone to be tanky to some extent. You need high burst to burn through this tankiness, so what is the purpose of tanks? I think CCs should be taken away from DPS and given to tanks for the most part. Something like:

DPS- dmg and mobility

Tanks- CC and survivability

Support-healing and either mobility or survivability

This would make a good addition to the next feedback thread. ;)


Hi, I'm moneda.

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6 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

They just need to slightly nerf SB's heal and restrict SB and RC to tank classes IMO.

Illusionary armor needs a nerf too.

It's usable by all, takes up only a minor disc slot, takes up no passives, and gives 20% mitigation for 20 seconds. Can be activated anytime too. 

Compare that to say "Furious" which requires a champion to reach 100 fury and then gives 15% damage for 15 seconds. It's a minor disc rune also but it takes up a passive slot. 

 

Edited by blazzen

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7 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

They just need to slightly nerf SB's heal and restrict SB and RC to tank classes IMO.

I don't think they should restrict it to tank classes only.  This will stifle build diversity. Why shouldn't support classes or people wanting to build tanky not have access to these?

1 minute ago, blazzen said:

Illusionary armor needs a nerf too.

It's usable by all, takes up only a minor disc slot, takes up no passives, and gives 20% mitigation for 20 seconds. 

Or IMO just like dots, certain defensive CDs shouldn't stack... Like.. we shouldn't be able to stack Santuary and AoF together. AoF by it's self isn't super strong.. but it stacking with others defensive CDs is.  So either nerf a bunch of defensive CDs or make them so they can't stack IMO.


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

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43 minutes ago, Destrin said:

I don't think they should restrict it to tank classes only.  This will stifle build diversity. Why shouldn't support classes or people wanting to build tanky not have access to these?

This is my opinion as well. What ACE needs to do is force us to make trade-offs. Build your tanky healer, but sacrifice healing to do so. Turn your tank into a healer, but become squishier for it.


Hi, I'm moneda.

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7 minutes ago, moneda said:

This is my opinion as well. What ACE needs to do is force us to make trade-offs. Build your tanky healer, but sacrifice healing to do so. Turn your tank into a healer, but become squishier for it.

There are tradeoffs right now - you can choose to take overwhelming odds for 20% mitigation or resolution for 15% more damage. The problem lies in the fact that the mitigation powers/discs are overall more powerful and more prevalent than the damage ones which has led to everyone being a lot more tanky and thus tanks becoming obsolete. 

I imagine they didn't want people stacking damage buffs and 1 shotting people which is why they are less powerful/prevalent but the opposite issue has now sprung up with the mitigation stacking. 

Edited by blazzen

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7 minutes ago, blazzen said:

There are tradeoffs right now - you can choose to take overwhelming odds for 20% mitigation or resolution for 15% more damage.

Eh, there are choices between bonuses, but taking Overwhelming Odds doesn't automatically lower your default damage or healing output. That's the kind of thing I mean by trade-off.


Hi, I'm moneda.

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if only templar's holy damage ignored *all* mitigation and not just mitigation from armor

or more practical debuffs to remove enemy mitigation, troubador 5m range 15/20% does not really cut it.

RIP legio AoE weapon and armor break debuffs.

Edited by Tinnis

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Some, but not all, of this is a product of no skill training (200% crit damage? Yes please.) and lack of high end weapons.

Some of the stacking mitigation will nerf even a live environment fessor to hitting for 50 dmg a fireball, but... in the down time when stuff is on CD, folks could get blown up for thousands of dmg in 2-5s.

We don't have that kind of burst dps anymore with slag weapons and little training.

Who knows what the training trees will look like in 5.3.

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1 hour ago, Destrin said:

I don't think they should restrict it to tank classes only.  This will stifle build diversity. Why shouldn't support classes or people wanting to build tanky not have access to these?

Or IMO just like dots, certain defensive CDs shouldn't stack... Like.. we shouldn't be able to stack Santuary and AoF together. AoF by it's self isn't super strong.. but it stacking with others defensive CDs is.  So either nerf a bunch of defensive CDs or make them so they can't stack IMO.

Perhaps a better way to balance SB would be to give it the Field Surgeon treatment: it works on others, but not yourself.

It's more of a problem in small scale situations because it can be synergized far too well with passives and other mitigations by a single class ... including some of the very high DPS classes.

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4 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

Perhaps a better way to balance SB would be to give it the Field Surgeon treatment: it works on others, but not yourself.

Or make it like 'rescue' in that it has a long debuff during which you will no longer gain the healing again [to prevent multi group member stacking]


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2 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

Or make it like 'rescue' in that it has a long debuff during which you will no longer gain the healing again [to prevent multi group member stacking]

Probably the best solution.


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

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I think Tinnis pretty much covered my response on anti-healing tech. The fact its limited to a single class, and a fairly unpopulated one means the tech is basically barely used. Trying to think big picture here and mention to the people that before you nerf healing, you should wait for all of the tech that _will_ exist to make it into the game. 

Playing wack-a-mole right now with balance is silly, pointless and utterly futile. You're just appeasing the small (vocal) minority thats super active and engaging Crowfall like its a launched game (aka a product that should be balanced).

Edited by scree

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