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Todd's thoughts on community feedback for skill training between VIP and non-VIP

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45 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Which if you follow to it's logical conclusion, makes ATL's and people willing to buy them, destroyers of the gameplay experience.

Either ALTs provide something that destroy the gameplay experience, or if it does not. 

If it does, something should be changed. If it does not, then altering the mechanics so every account can contain the same ability does not.

So which is it for you? Do ALT's destroy the gameplay experience or not?

Alts will exist no matter what.  They can do things to deter alt-accounting.  Are you having trouble with this logic?


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 hour ago, coolwaters said:

That said, who knows what Todd has up his sleeve to add to VIP that might push that VIP purchasing motivation over the hill.

I wrote about this in one of my first Crowfall posts and proposed some of the ideas I/we had in Discord.

  1. A yearly ration of bonus queue pips for extended vacations could be included in VIP, and queue pips could be purchased in the cash shop individually or in bundles.
  2. Login queue priority (alt accounts are much less useful on the dregs if you can’t login to the same server easily)
  3. Support queue priority
  4. An additional primary or racial passive skill training
  5. Limited-edition cosmetic skins gifted periodically to VIPs
  6. Discounts on cosmetic skins
  7. Unlocks new set of cosmetic skins in the store for buildings, parcels, weapons, armor, and vessels
  8. Auto-F key so that you can gather with proximity not key press (seriously, this mechanic has no value. Hurt the character, not the player. Give a short debuff while/after gathering or similar)

Source: https://medium.com/@orleans/beating-a-dead-horse-eloquently-crowfall-vip-12c89400ec00 (with a few added on)

Edited by Orleans

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43 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Which if you follow to it's logical conclusion, makes ATL's and people willing to buy them, destroyers of the gameplay experience.

Either ALTs provide something that destroy the gameplay experience, or if it does not. 

If it does, something should be changed. If it does not, then altering the mechanics so every account can contain the same ability does not.

So which is it for you? Do ALT's destroy the gameplay experience or not?

This is the mic drop point, really. The "pro alt account" argument is internally inconsistent. Either alt accounts are bad for the game and amount to a "pay to win" situation or VIP giving the same content access would likewise not be bad for the game nor "pay to win" and would result in fewer alt accounts and greater player convenience.

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2 hours ago, MrMeeseeks said:

You need to stop feeding the troll!  Or troll responses will the only reply you will get...

I know, but I have this earnest optimism for humanity that keeps biting me. I'll learn eventually. 


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3 minutes ago, Destrin said:

That's cause you are over complicating it... takes me about 5 minutes for 9 accounts with the current training system.

You're saying you have a system that allows you to miss no training time on all 9 accounts across both environments in 5 minutes per day? Teach me your magic!

It makes me feel bad to not have optimal training; I would rather not engage than do something poorly and be feeling negatively about my experience. 


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Just now, Orleans said:

You're saying you have a system that allows you to miss no training time on all 9 accounts across both environments in 5 minutes per day? Teach me your magic!

Start all training at the same time... say... 12:15... all the skills are Tier # x 3 days.  So all your skills will finish at around 12:15 on different days..... done.


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7 minutes ago, Destrin said:

Start all training at the same time... say... 12:15... all the skills are Tier # x 3 days.  So all your skills will finish at around 12:15 on different days..... done.

I mean, I have done that as much as possible, and you're seeing the result above. I didn't just intentionally move them off-cycle, and you do see clusters of them together due to the new environment. However, over time, unless you are flawless with your execution and always at your computer on the spot, there will be skew.

 Perhaps I'm missing something, but these environments were not created at the same time. On the contrary, they were created months apart. At least Duelist and Druid have different timers, the Duelist passive nodes start getting to be very long much before Druid. 

Haven't dug into the timing on each tree/node yet because it's all being changed, but suffice to say that I did my best with the information I had, and the above is the result. Perhaps there is some secret to getting these all aligned, but I don't think that is a reasonable expectation for players to know or learn... what possible value could it have? 

Edited by Orleans

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5 minutes ago, Orleans said:

Haven't dug into the timing on each tree/node yet because it's all being changed, but suffice to say that I did my best with the information I had, and the above is the result. Perhaps there is some secret to getting these all aligned, but I don't think that is a reasonable expectation for players to know or learn... what possible value could it have? 

I believe that the same tier rank have the same amount of time needed to master it.
In case, you don't know about it.
 


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Ah, just looked more closely and you guys are totally right.

The nodes are more consistent than I realized, the skew on the test environment is a result of my ineptitude, and the skew on the live environment is due to lack of caring as I didn't understand how valuable training was before I started. 

Thanks!

But keep in mind, this only works if you skip ahead simultaneously across all accounts and only train the same node tiers simultaneously across all accounts, and start/stop the environments at the same time, right? Otherwise you're still going to get skew. But it's at least much more manageable. 

In practice, I expect you'll want different nodes across different accounts being specialized in different things. While some builds may require rushing specific nodes, others will spread more widely across a few trees. The variability in node length and node investment makes skew all but inevitable. Right? 

My certainty on the above is about 10%; I would really need to do more digging to fully understand the implications here, but I don't think that is a productive use of time, as the system is already slated for change. 

Edited by Orleans

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10 minutes ago, Orleans said:

Ah, just looked more closely and you guys are totally right.

The nodes are more consistent than I realized, the skew on the test environment is a result of my ineptitude, and the skew on the live environment is due to lack of caring as I didn't understand how valuable training was before I started. 

Thanks!

But keep in mind, this only works if you skip ahead simultaneously across all accounts and only train the same node tiers simultaneously across all accounts, and start/stop the environments at the same time, right? Otherwise you're still going to get skew. But it's at least much more manageable. 

In practice, I expect you'll want different nodes across different accounts being specialized in different things. While some builds may require rushing specific nodes, others will spread more widely across a few trees. The variability in node length and node investment makes skew all but inevitable. Right? 

My certainty on the above is about 10%; I would really need to do more digging to fully understand the implications here, but I don't think that is a productive use of time, as the system is already slated for change. 

Eating crow like a boss.

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4 minutes ago, Airfx said:

Eating crow like a boss.

Hey, I love eating crow. It means that I gained new knowledge. Further more, it's knowledge that contradicts something I thought was true before, which is even better.

What is a bit of ego bruising and humility shown in exchange for that?

It's important to acknowledge when you're wrong because you can't learn and improve without doing so. It's also an aspect of integrity. 

Todd mentioned something tangentially related on the last stream -- applauding the community for not simply advocating for their own main classes, but also communicating about strengths and weaknesses that do and/or should exist. 

Edited by Orleans

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12 minutes ago, Orleans said:

Hey, I love eating crow. It means that I gained new knowledge. Further more, it's knowledge that contradicts something I thought was true before, which is even better.

What is a bit of ego bruising and humility shown in exchange for that?

It's important to acknowledge when you're wrong because you can't learn and improve without doing so. It's also an aspect of integrity. 

Todd mentioned something tangentially related on the last stream -- applauding the community for not simply advocating for their own main classes, but also communicating about strengths and weaknesses that do and/or should exist. 

Oh, I am all for it - my comment wasn't intended as a slight; just wanted to bring attention to it because its so rare to see.

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1 hour ago, Orleans said:

This is not true currently, even with VIP. Managing 5 accounts takes about 30m per day

It took me less than 10 minutes last night to check on my accounts.  There is literally nothing to do but make sure you didn't go over on an account and that every training slot has something going.

My biggest gripe with the non-VIP approach was that non-VIP were originally not going to be able to have auto queued skill training like the VIP.  With Todd's consideration of 24 hrs for non-VIP and longer for VIP, that is a huge boon to quality of life, and something completely doable under the current training.  Checking skills each night for a few minutes is drastically different than 3am wake ups.


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If they let VIP owners auto train entire skill line by mapping them out, that alone would be a huge VIP perk. No having to go back and click on nodes, just plan out what nodes you want, set what order you want to train them in and let it rock. You wouldn't need to "punish" or annoy non-vip users. Might even entice people with alts to pick up VIP, generating even more revenue for the developer.

At this point I don't think we can or should persuade people from buying alts, the very nature and design of the game screams "buy alternative" accounts due to essentially only having one character slot and only being able to specialize in a single task.

Edited by Helix

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1 hour ago, Helix said:

If they let VIP owners auto train entire skill line by mapping them out, that alone would be a huge VIP perk. No having to go back and click on nodes, just plan out what nodes you want, set what order you want to train them in and let it rock. You wouldn't need to "punish" or annoy non-vip users. Might even entice people with alts to pick up VIP, generating even more revenue for the developer.

if that queue system were to be implemented, what would prevent people from seeing it as a "punishment" that they need to pay for VIP to use it?


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18 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

We are talking about making alt-accounting annoying and some people thinking that is the wrong approach, when it is really the only realistic approach to deterring people from alt-accounting.

If your fix for any product that's designed to be "entertainment" is "make it annoying" it is time to take a step back and look at the big picture. That is what Todd is doing here.

You created a problem with your VIP vs Non-VIP design. Creating annoyance isn't a valid solution to solve the problem you created.

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21 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

If your fix for any product that's designed to be "entertainment" is "make it annoying" it is time to take a step back and look at the big picture. That is what Todd is doing here.

You created a problem with your VIP vs Non-VIP design. Creating annoyance isn't a valid solution to solve the problem you created.

In this case it is the only logical solution unless they want people buying alt accounts with non-vip having an advantage over single accounts with vip.  You can try to wish things as well as you want, there are real world logistics and alt-accounting is something that is fine to make annoying, since it isn't the way they want you to play the game.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 hour ago, Jah said:

if that queue system were to be implemented, what would prevent people from seeing it as a "punishment" that they need to pay for VIP to use it?

The newer purposed pip system is far more punishing and tedious. Having to train each node as a non-VIP user is way easier to swallow. Auto-queue for VIP would be a huge perk but not a must have, tho I can honestly say it's something that would entice me to purchase. It's not annonying not having it, but it's a nice QOL selling point for VIPs.

Edited by izkimar

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43 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

In this case it is the only logical solution unless they want people buying alt accounts with non-vip having an advantage over single accounts with vip.  You can try to wish things as well as you want, there are real world logistics and alt-accounting is something that is fine to make annoying, since it isn't the way they want you to play the game.

Annoying your customers for buying the game is a good way to lose business. The devs should entice and encourage those alt-account holders to buy into VIP, but not annoy them in the process. That's just bad business sense.

It's not like crowfall is the only upcoming pvp mmo. You piss people off and they're more than willing to jump ship to camelot unchained or so on.

Edited by Helix

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8 minutes ago, Helix said:

Annoying your customers for buying the game is a good way to lose business. The devs should entice and encourage those alt-account holders to buy into VIP, but not annoy them in the process. That's just bad business sense.

It's not like crowfall is the only upcoming pvp mmo. You piss people off and they're more than willing to jump ship to camelot unchained or so on.

What you guys consider annoying is child's play stuff.  What will destroy a niche game more than anything is softening everything for the people constantly demanding easy-mode. 

Your logic is also flawed, annoying customers for buying the game is not the same as finding ways to deter multi-accounting. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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