Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
McTan

What ACE might consider about Albion Online

Recommended Posts

When did good competitive PVP devolve into killing players who really don't want to fight or have no chance?  Just because it is a pvp game does not mean everyone plays the same way.  We have people that want to play pvp games to make others mad, upset, to ruin their gaming experience....ie griefers. 

It seems that PVPers only want to fight when they know they can win.  It really tarnishes PVP games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing about Crowfall is that by design of the campaign worlds the population will be fragmented.  ArtCraft has created a system where people can get their feet wet with PvP or jump in at high stakes.  This was what appealed to me to back the game.  The populations of the various rule sets remains to be seen.  I bet most people will fall in the middle to low risk category and agree that "hardcore" PvPers will be a minority in the whole scheme of things.  There are a lot of variables to play with when it comes time to play the game I just hope the ones I prefer will have a big enough population to support playing it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Talizar said:

When did good competitive PVP devolve into killing players who really don't want to fight or have no chance?  Just because it is a pvp game does not mean everyone plays the same way.  We have people that want to play pvp games to make others mad, upset, to ruin their gaming experience....ie griefers. 

It seems that PVPers only want to fight when they know they can win.  It really tarnishes PVP games.

Great point!  When I played WoW there was no joy in crushing some lowbie doing quests leveling...but my rogue Main was always nearby my questing Alts should I get ganked by some max level toon to give them a more sporting fight.  With great power comes great responsibility and if you can wipe someone off the map anytime you want due to whatever advantage you have at the time knowing it is more empowering than doing it when they have no chance fight back or defend themselves.  Different stroke for different folks I guess but it is not to be respected when abusing power is the way you get your jollies off.

There are hardcore PvP games out there such as ARK among others where everything you make can be destroyed or taken. I think nothing compares to the survival genre when it comes to dog eat dog PvP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This feedback is not at all about Casual vs Hardcore - the original Kickstarter vision for Crowfall included multiple ruleset CWs and EKs with various levels of risk + reward. That's a great design for including many types of playstyles in one game universe.

This is cautionary feedback about how Albion Online strayed far from their original vision of an open-world pvp-focused sandbox, and ended up with a game that for all playstyles is repetitive and boring.


tiPrpwh.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Hasil said:

You're right, I just keep longing for a truly balanced, not too hardcore, PvP MMO. . . I guess I mean *another* one, cause I think we already had one that was before its time, in Dark Age of Camelot.  To me, it's a three-horse race to see where I end up in the next 2 years or so -- Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, or Camelot Unchained.  Hopefully all three are successful, and hopefully one of the three captivates me the way that DAOC did back in the day.

Really hoping at least one of those three turn out decently. DAoC is still my favorite PVP MMO, be it nostalgia blinds me or not. All three have some struggles ahead and likely won't live up to the hype or promises. Sometimes keeping it simple makes for a better experience, but we'll see if all the reaching for the moon features can be delivered.

5 hours ago, Talizar said:

When did good competitive PVP devolve into killing players who really don't want to fight or have no chance?  Just because it is a pvp game does not mean everyone plays the same way.  We have people that want to play pvp games to make others mad, upset, to ruin their gaming experience....ie griefers. 

It seems that PVPers only want to fight when they know they can win.  It really tarnishes PVP games.

Pretty much.

3 hours ago, miraluna said:

This feedback is not at all about Casual vs Hardcore - the original Kickstarter vision for Crowfall included multiple ruleset CWs and EKs with various levels of risk + reward. That's a great design for including many types of playstyles in one game universe.

This is cautionary feedback about how Albion Online strayed far from their original vision of an open-world pvp-focused sandbox, and ended up with a game that for all playstyles is repetitive and boring.

CF is on the right track, despite some not understanding that it is possible to have a game catering to different types of players. One of AO's major flaws is it sticks with the dead concept of one world that runs into the "Uncle Bob" problem along with a bunch of watered down systems where neither the sum nor the parts really have a chance to shine.

Edited by APE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/22/2017 at 0:39 PM, Talizar said:

When did good competitive PVP devolve into killing players who really don't want to fight or have no chance?  Just because it is a pvp game does not mean everyone plays the same way.  We have people that want to play pvp games to make others mad, upset, to ruin their gaming experience....ie griefers. 

It seems that PVPers only want to fight when they know they can win.  It really tarnishes PVP games.

I think I understand where you are coming from, but I feel like your post is not a new phenomenon. I think PvP has not devolved, but the MMORPG community has not had much opportunity to actively risk their efforts and materials. Nor an opportunity to truly build worlds, and change the face of the map. Nor a need to face the reality of losing their stuff, and preparing. 

The issue with AO is not that people do not want to fight the fights they are likely to lose, that won't go away - it's that people can very easily avoid fights they they are likely to lose. The nonsensical ways that people on opposite sides just run around on horses trying to gauge numbers, and the easy ability to flee when you are outnumbered, even by one person, make it so that people never fight. Literally. I have been in like maybe three interesting fights in the month I have played.

The point of this OP was to reignite this longstanding conversation, at a high design level and a serious PR level, when within several months these forums might be littered with people clamoring for ACE to backtrack on some of their meaningful, non-consensual, PvP visions.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, mctan said:

I think I understand where you are coming from, but I feel like your post is not a new phenomenon. I think PvP has not devolved, but the MMORPG community has not had much opportunity to actively risk their efforts and materials. Nor an opportunity to truly build worlds, and change the face of the map. Nor a need to face the reality of losing their stuff, and preparing. 

The issue with AO is not that people do not want to fight the fights they are likely to lose, that won't go away - it's that people can very easily avoid fights they they are likely to lose. The nonsensical ways that people on opposite sides just run around on horses trying to gauge numbers, and the easy ability to flee when you are outnumbered, even by one person, make it so that people never fight. Literally. I have been in like maybe three interesting fights in the month I have played.

The point of this OP was to reignite this longstanding conversation, at a high design level and a serious PR level, when within several months these forums might be littered with people clamoring for ACE to backtrack on some of their meaningful, non-consensual, PvP visions.

I'm actually hoping that they ditch mounts in CF or at least make them cosmetic speed boosts and not another system to deal with.

While "interesting" is personal, where are you playing/fighting in AO mainly? Almost always something going on in black zones be it random gankers or zergs lagging everything. Depends on the time, but usually can find someone to kill or die to, but there is a lot of searching sometimes. Unfortunate they went with such a zone based game that cuts the population into tiny pockets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I highly agree with points 4 and 2. I've written on having a shallow power curve many times. My standard is the strongest character should be no more powerful than 25% of the weakest, most base equipped character. Plus because right now the crafting system is a snooze/annoyance fest forcing players to go through that to get to the fun stuff is not good. This is a major unsolved problem in pvp in all mmos imo.

 

On point 2: I've always supported no teleportation in Crowfall ACE said they plan to implement them but we'll see how it turns out. 

For safe zones EK's should be 100% safe or up to the player. For the CW world the graveyards need to be safe in case of lag or other issues if they keep dying but that's the only place imo that should have a safe zone. 

Edited by Holyvigil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, APE said:

I'm actually hoping that they ditch mounts in CF or at least make them cosmetic speed boosts and not another system to deal with.

While "interesting" is personal, where are you playing/fighting in AO mainly? Almost always something going on in black zones be it random gankers or zergs lagging everything. Depends on the time, but usually can find someone to kill or die to, but there is a lot of searching sometimes. Unfortunate they went with such a zone based game that cuts the population into tiny pockets.

Black-zone guild, fairly big alliance. I agree with your assessment of AOs zoning and player density issues. 

I am with you in terms of mounts, but I don't think they are going anywhere. So, I hope ACE takes seriously the high-level ways people work with mounts. The first thing is to make them "active" and not summoned and de-summoned at will. If you want to get off your horse and fight me, great, you should get no cooldown penalties whatsoever. But, your horse might die.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, mctan said:

The first thing is to make them "active" and not summoned and de-summoned at will. If you want to get off your horse and fight me, great, you should get no cooldown penalties whatsoever. But, your horse might die.

This is how it's going to be. Mounts will actually fight beside you like pets. 

See #6 in the FAQ. 

https://www.crowfall.com/en/faq/mounts/ 


Blazzen <Lords of Death>

YouTube - Twitch - Website

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hi I have played AO still do but my opinion on original post

1. Arena is fine. perhaps to gain disciplines or an armor that looks a way you want. 

On 8/17/2017 at 7:30 PM, mctan said:

do not make any such fights meaningful in any way toward who wins and loses the Campaign World

so agree

2.

On 8/17/2017 at 7:30 PM, mctan said:

A related problem that must be addressed is the relationship between world size, type, travel, and points of interest: what I call how "alive" the world feels.

and 

 

On 8/17/2017 at 7:30 PM, mctan said:

Much more of the pressure is to make EKs more like CWs, but without any of the PvP risk. I was incredibly disappointed to hear that all-the-way to T4 mats would be available in EKs. You are essentially making those resources valueless

are two different things

I can see already that each CW has its own look,and goes through multiple seasons. I think this in the summer of the game will make exploring very valuable.

EK are not CW they do not end ,and you like most players should be willing to compromise. The compromise is that people will have some resources outside of CW. Would you rather have safe zones?? Or perhaps you can show us how much you think having no EKs is ,and come in naked to each CW with no gear and disciplines. Personally as someone who likes to progress gear wise as well I would like to bring in something from a previous CW.

so disagree with both

3.

On 8/17/2017 at 7:30 PM, mctan said:

Do Not Try to Attract Risk Averse Players

So you say by listening to the whining they may attract risk averse players? AO has a problem I agree to that ,but I cannot think of a single game where they didnt change due to criticism of their game. 

I hope the changes that are made are seldom. I hope they attract the players ,but I hope they dont change the game to suit their wants/needs.

I say we agree on this one

4.

I think that since AO is in the infancy stage it will be gathering and harvesting centered. However as people get better geared and steal from people that is better geared eventually you will have the big guilds with unlimited resources and armors ,and the smaller guilds and solos fighting and gathering to try to become better equipped

Does it make it a harvesting game? In my opinion No. Will there be more harvesting in Crowfall? It looks to be the same really. Summer resources are easily attained but as winter nears less harvesting and more fighting. 

Why I believe you think this is a problem I disagree and think it is a great mechanic!

5.

So perhaps I came in late after this was dealt with ,but I agree with any reductions of hacking and cheating. Is it even fun for hackers and cheaters? 

Or is it more of a I feel so good about myself cause they "loss" and I "won"? 

So I agree with last one

In the end keep talking about these things you are concerned with because that is how you get a game that you willl want to play and get friends to play.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meaningful PVP or campaigns are tough.  In BDO the big powerhouse guilds either allowed or denied content.  The hardcore players HAD to join the few big hardcore guilds to get much done.  Their castle sieges were pretty fun and different with the type of area being conquered and a limited supply of items that could be placed for offensive/defensive protection.

I played a game long ago which is still around barely called Pirates of the Burning Sea.  Everyone on the server played on a fresh map once a faction won the world by meeting the criteria.  After a map win people could switch sides which could lead to everyone jumping to the last winner or moving to a different faction completely.  It was a very competitive game and winning ports meant something.  Taxes for the faction that previously owned it went up.  The winners were rewarded with lower taxes.  Ports were needed to produce goods to build ships, ammo, stuff.  After 3 days or so the map would reset, which would give people a chance to pvp for fun, relax, take a break whatever,  the ports would all revert the original owning nation and the fights would begin.  Ports were won with instanced 24 v 24 port battles which were either won on the sea or in avatar combat in town.  I played for Spain which was generally one of the least populated nations.  Everyone wanted to be a Brit.  The Pirates until later were never much of a factor.  Spain won many a map because of better chemistry of port battle commanders etc.   These battles like BDO were scheduled for for peak playing hours with the time actually set by when the attacker reached enough contention on the port to cause a battle.  Delays or speed flips were very strategic along with back to back battles or battles that could overlap with another nation.  for winning and losing you received in game commendations or rewards so there was a point to winning.  Nothing over the top OP but over time helped the players with items, etc.

I don't know if any of these ideas have any value today.  Warhammer tried a conquest system that made little sense to me and people could flip a conquest in the middle of the night when nobody was on.  BDO was play to crush, Archeage was before BDO and similar but different but the zergfest usually won.

I am searching for a game with real meaningful pvp and conquest.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/22/2017 at 0:39 PM, Talizar said:

When did good competitive PVP devolve into killing players who really don't want to fight or have no chance?  Just because it is a pvp game does not mean everyone plays the same way.  We have people that want to play pvp games to make others mad, upset, to ruin their gaming experience....ie griefers. 

It seems that PVPers only want to fight when they know they can win.  It really tarnishes PVP games.

Did you play UO? This has been around for a long time.

It seems that non PVPers or those who complain about being "griefed" make large generalizations about PVPers and try to lump them in one category. So I guess I will do the same to you. ALL non PVPers do this to justify why they have a valid reason to complain about PVP, even though they actively purchased and chose to participate in a game with a PVP focus.

Some people like myself enjoy playing in a game that has very loosely defined rules. I like rule sets where someone can steal items from me, scam me, kill me and do basically anything else they want to me. I shouldn't be able to AFK in any game, if you can AFK in a game, the danger isn't there.

I will engage in battles that I have a guaranteed win and I also will engage in battles where I have a guaranteed loss. I just want to PVP, regardless of the outcome. I enjoy winning, but a good fight and losing is always preferred over not fighting at all.

The problem that always continues on every PVP game is the part of the community that doesn't enjoy the PVP aspect of the game even when it is a PVP focused game. This part of the community makes complaints which break the core mechanics of the PVP game. What we end up with is a piece of poorly made socks PVP game that caters to no one. The PVP players aren't happy because PVP has become washed down. Non PVPers (Trammies) are unhappy because there is still too much PVP.

^ This is the state Albion Online is in. PVP sucks because you can choose (through mobility skills and mounting mechanics) not to participate in it. This same ability allows anyone losing in PVP to run away.

Conclusion - You sound like a Trammy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think one thing the devs can take away from AO is the amount of inter-dependency. While it's there in albion, you're still not essentially tied to the hip. There is a lot of bloat and redundancy in the current skill like model which I hope is reduced or dealt away with completely. I'd personally like it if it didn't take 80+ days to become proficient at one resource node type.

 

harvesting and crafting in crowfall feel like work, and when your game feels like work you might have a problem.

Edited by Helix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Helix said:

I'd personally like it if it didn't take 80+ days to become proficient st one resource node type.

 

harvesting and crafting in crowfall feel like work, and when your game feels like work you might have a problem.

Yes.  

 

As others have mentioned, the skill training (both amount of skills and real world hours) required to be proficient in ONE type of resource is obscene.

The current gathering process to obtain those resources (doobers) directly impacts the fun level of the overall game, which is presently very low.

Edited by cattboy

~ the one and only ~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/17/2017 at 10:30 PM, mctan said:

. Thoughts? Other comments?

I'm not sure why you play a different game, have such a bad experience that you start projecting this game on to Crowfall. Except for the last 2, none of those things are even applicable to Crowfall or has been mentioned in any way. Just because a game is made and comes out around the time of this game being worked on, doesn't mean developers are circling around these games to snap up their ideas.

As to harvesting, we know how this is already... 

As to cheating... this is an on-going thing in every MMO that developers usually want to crack down hard on and prevent ruining their game. Doesn't really need a mention.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/22/2017 at 3:39 PM, Talizar said:

When did good competitive PVP devolve into killing players who really don't want to fight or have no chance?  Just because it is a pvp game does not mean everyone plays the same way.  We have people that want to play pvp games to make others mad, upset, to ruin their gaming experience....ie griefers. 

It seems that PVPers only want to fight when they know they can win.  It really tarnishes PVP games.

When games made PvP an after thought such that people would play on a PvP server without the intent to PvP.

If you play a PvP game you are by choice wanting to PvP... all the time. You at least know you signed up for it. Killing and harvesting in a PvP game is the player making the decision to "come at me bro" while doing these things because if they are doing them solo, they are doing it with the surety? arrogance? that they can do this and a player at the same time.

Unlike a lot of horrible players that never could wrap their heads around killing mobs for quests (in games such as wow) while simultaneously always looking around to see if potential attackers are incoming, I was not one of those people. It died over time because PvP became more of an after thought. But I welcomed would be attackers and a good chunk of the time I actually won.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Navystylz said:

I'm not sure why you play a different game, have such a bad experience that you start projecting this game on to Crowfall. Except for the last 2, none of those things are even applicable to Crowfall or has been mentioned in any way. Just because a game is made and comes out around the time of this game being worked on, doesn't mean developers are circling around these games to snap up their ideas.

As to harvesting, we know how this is already... 

As to cheating... this is an on-going thing in every MMO that developers usually want to crack down hard on and prevent ruining their game. Doesn't really need a mention.

 

I find it interesting that you say this, and then your second post essentially highlights the point of trying to attract risk averse players.

Some of what I said was to continue conversations; if you think there will not be consumer pressure on ACE to move toward things like instanced PvP, you have not been paying attention. I have read many of those threads on this very forum over the past couple years. 

As for projecting, I think of it more like protecting. Crowfall has been my beacon of hope for PvP MMOs since its announcement, and if I feel I have something worthwhile to contribute, I will do so. If you do not find it worthwhile, that's just the way it is.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, mctan said:

I find it interesting that you say this, and then your second post essentially highlights the point of trying to attract risk averse players.

Some of what I said was to continue conversations; if you think there will not be consumer pressure on ACE to move toward things like instanced PvP, you have not been paying attention. I have read many of those threads on this very forum over the past couple years. 

As for projecting, I think of it more like protecting. Crowfall has been my beacon of hope for PvP MMOs since its announcement, and if I feel I have something worthwhile to contribute, I will do so. If you do not find it worthwhile, that's just the way it is.

I'm not sure how you twisted my second post to mean this. I was essentially highlighting that people signed up for what they get but don't know how to handle it. And this is because the way the game is designed to make people complacent about PvP. PvP is such an after-thought they get this idea that killing in PvE somehow turns of the PvE and don't go messing with them when they are doing their PvE. This is the wrong mentality and goes against their agreement of signing up for PvP server.

At the same time, the developers need to give the players the tool to have a healthy PvP environment or they will not want to do it. WoW currently in Legion is a perfect example of the devs just taking PvP from an after thought to something completely unfun, unhealthy and so imbalanced that the only sane person that likes it would be the OP tanks that now can fight many people at once as if they are mini-raid bosses. The devs don't care about PvP anymore yet make those who were on those server from start either suffer for it, reroll on PvE servers, Pay to transfer or quit. Well most people like their money so it's either reroll or quit.

There is no coming up with new specs to counter the other. These tools aren't in place. Their is arbitrary teams forced on you by faction so if you are on the underpopulated side, you not only get to fight that raid boss tank but all the other faction members that attack too. People quit because imbalance and PvP as an afterthought. PvP guilds are hurr cuz PvP is not a fun activity with devs actively working on it.

Crowfall is about PvP. World PvP. Except certain rulesets no factions forced on you. No PvE imbalances making classes god mode. More meta to specs than an abitrary list of powers that can't even be worked into your own spec. When you log in and you aren't in an area that you know is completely safe (and in shadowbane I didn't even take my home city as safe), you expect PvP so will always be on the look out for trouble.

Now playing another game that has issue with their design that was never once mentioned or is an issue to comment yet here is different. Once upon a time we called this "borrowing trouble". A concept where you dream up concerns that aren't even an issue and acting based on that. And the devs have been nothing but amazing at listening to what we have to say so even if such a thing should pop up and most people are like woah, woah... nah man. I'm confident the devs will see that as something not good for game.

It's all good to keep a conversation going, but was this even a conversation? I am the type who basically doesn't say anything unless I feel there is something to say. But looking through a lot of these forum post there are a lot of them where people just take concepts and problems that aren't even a thing in Crowfall and start going on about how this can't work.

Edited by Navystylz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Navystylz said:

I'm not sure how you twisted my second post to mean this. I was essentially highlighting that people signed up for what they get but don't know how to handle it. And this is because the way the game is designed to make people complacent about PvP. PvP is such an after-thought they get this idea that killing in PvE somehow turns of the PvE and don't go messing with them when they are doing their PvE. This is the wrong mentality and goes against their agreement of signing up for PvP server.

I "twisted" your meaning because if players join Crowfall unprepared for its PvP design, they will vocally call for design changes (and AO devs made some) that will not make PvP an "after-thought," but certainly change its mechanics. If ACE tries to keep these players (okay "attract" is slightly different), then yes the situation is relevant. If it does not seem relevant to you, so be it.

You seem to be arguing that it is a guarantee that ACE will respond to any such calls for design changes with: "this is the wrong mentality and goes against their agreement of signing up for PvP (server)." I certainly hope they do, and I find value in reiterating why they should respond that way, in the long run.

I understood the rest of your post and have little to say about it. Take care!

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...