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UPDATED: ACE Q&A for September - Official discussion thread

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I completey agree with @Svenn . I think VIP turned out be like a non-mandatory mandatory monthly payment and yes it is a "business-model" but my understanding from Kickstarter was that it will be a game in which NON-VIP and VIP are basically the same. I probably understood that wrong but then they should be honest and say VIP gives you a big advantage. The advantage is others farm/grind 100hours to get someone else gets by paying.

I always thought it is possible to create a game where people buy VIP because they want to help the developers and have some fancy extra stuff (Mount, extra char slot, stuff like that). Sorry but VIP is on the way to becoming OP and if that is the case I will have learned my lesson = "either read between the lines" or "don't trust AC". It is not that I cannot afford it to pay 15 Dollar or Euro a month but it was still an impression that I do not need to and everyone needs the same time for accomplishing the same goals in the game. If I like the game I will pay for it. Thats how it works with WOW and for me it is more honest everyone who wants to play pays 15 Dollars per month and then there is no extra stuffe beside cosmetics etc. Right now for me it is kind of like okay pay enough money and it will be a lot easier for you in the game and you will be a lot faster than others in reaching certain goals. We will see how it turns out eventually I am just raising concerns that it will be like ROM or other games I have played where the advantage of ppl investing 50 dollars a month are too huge,so eventually someone without that kind of cash couldn't compete with ppl buying the achievements.

Edited by Busama

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i hope people scam RMT using tomes that only have one minute [or 24m / 72m instead of 24h/ 72h] injected into them and people dont check on the trade screen before confirming :P

p.s. will skill queing between nodes still be a thing for VIP as previously teased?

Edited by Tinnis

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1 hour ago, zolaz said:

That is more pay for convenience than pay to win.  Training isnt gated where you have to pay for it if you want any. You can train twice as much, but you cant have twice as many passive and active skills going or buttons to mash. 

How is training both Armor and Weapons opposed to only being able to train just Armor not a P2W advantage. You do get both of the passive benefits from both trees at the same time. This is p2w, not pay for convenience. I don't think you understand how the profession tree works. I believe ACE already identified that this is an issue.

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7 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

How is training both Armor and Weapons opposed to only being able to train just Armor not a P2W advantage. You do get both of the passive benefits from both trees at the same time. This is p2w, not pay for convenience. I don't think you understand how the profession tree works. I believe ACE already identified that this is an issue.

Can you train Armor?  Can you train Weapons?  P2W would be if there was a skill that only VIP could train.

How much of an advantage are you getting from having both at the same time?  Will you never be able to train those skills and mitigate the disadvantage? Sounds more and more like convenience than P2W to me. 

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5 hours ago, Svenn said:

It doesn't matter what the amount is. First of all, I guarantee people won't trade VIP for 5-10 hours. But even if that is the right amount it doesn't matter. Real money is straight up giving an advantage.

It doesn't matter if you CAN win. It doesn't matter if you CAN have fun. The fact is that someone with more real money is able to always be better than someone who can't afford to dump money into the game. And that's not a balanced game.

And no, you didn't address poorly made socks. You complained that the amount of time was off and then tried to redirect by accusing me of not wanting ACE to have money.

And nowhere did I say that 100 hours or 10 hours or whatever someone is playing was the only amount they are playing, but that was the amount of time just "lost" to get something that someone else gets just for having more real life money.

And you keep trying to make this personal. I'm someone that plays 40-80 hours a week and is willing to dump hundreds of dollars a month into a good game. This isn't about me. I'm the person that would have the advantage. I don't want the advantage, I want it to be an even playing field.

The idea that all characters should be equally balanced in all situations is not one of our design goals. (so you're correct but that's okay)

Pay to win means that if you pay you win. If you pay and you don't win then its not pay to win. Having an advantage doesn't mean you'll win. I'm not saying your opinions are wrong. I'm saying that I feel like your reasons for them don't make sense to me in the way they were presented.

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17 minutes ago, zolaz said:

Can you train Armor?  Can you train Weapons?  P2W would be if there was a skill that only VIP could train.

How much of an advantage are you getting from having both at the same time?  Will you never be able to train those skills and mitigate the disadvantage? Sounds more and more like convenience than P2W to me. 

Would you consider it P2W if I gave ACE 10,000 bucks to have a max level character? This is an extreme example, but it is really the same thing. Paying money to train twice as fast and gain a skill advantage has nothing to do with convenience. Convenience is being able to time bank 3 weeks opposed to 24 hours.

I think we just disagree with what P2W is. I 100% think that paying more money to be able to train twice as fast is P2W, but that is just me. I also want to point out I will be buying VIP. I still think this is unfair for non-VIP. I don't want an advantage because I paid more money, that is stupid in my opinion.

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5 hours ago, Svenn said:

I know the quote. Todd was talking about class balance in that quote. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

There is no cap to how much advantage you can get from VIP, actually. Someone with unlimited money could buy as many VIP tokens as they want and trade for whatever they want in game. They could literally buy unlimited power, especially with skill tomes. Just buy tons of tomes (or accounts to farm tomes), transfer to main account. Trade tons of VIP tokens to get thousands of resources and crazy crafted gear. Maxed out skill tree and the best possible gear in the game all bought with real money.

And again, I guarantee you that VIP will be worth a lot more than 10 hours of play time. Look at literally any game ever that lets you buy stuff and sell it to others for in-game currency. It's more like $0.30-$0.70 an hour typically.

I understand this post alot better than the previous one in regard to your opinions about the state of the game and p2w. It makes sense to me. <3

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25 minutes ago, zolaz said:

Can you train Armor?  Can you train Weapons?  P2W would be if there was a skill that only VIP could train.

How much of an advantage are you getting from having both at the same time?  Will you never be able to train those skills and mitigate the disadvantage? Sounds more and more like convenience than P2W to me. 

It is an advantage. Yes of course you arble to do that later if you do not pay but for the first months you are not at the same level and after a year there will be new skills and so on so non vip will never be at the same level. Of course you may be better with skill but still there is a difference between non-vip and vip. Honestly in my opinion they should make it monthly and not being able to trade VIP ingame. The idea of buying VIP ingame is that they do not lose the money of ppl who do not want to pay. Someone who wants to invest more cash buys it and sells it ingame. Problem is: They are saying buying it ingame kind of evens the advantages out but that is not true because they will get a lot of ingame resources for that. And resources are everything in CF. In the end someone investing more money than VIP is making his life a lot easier by investing lets say 75 dollars a month than somone investing 15 dollars (one VIP). So why not make it monthly from the beginning --> of course they want to attract ppl at the beginning by saying it is "pay once". In my opinion if it will become a good game ppl will pay the monthly like WOW or FF. I mean we will see it after launch how the price is developing for VIP on the market how high the demand is (if there is any), how big the advantage of ppl will be who are able to sell 4 VIPs per month, and we will see the general advantage of VIP against Non-VIP in battle, crafting etc.

@Surgemaster PTW is not 100% win all the time by comparing the amounts invested. P2W for me is having a "huge advantage over others". Example: VIP gives you 3 times a day access to raid --> you get items approx. in month

NOn -VIp gives you 1 time access a day --> you get items approx 3 months

After 4 months there is a new raid.

 CF is PVP and for PVP it is even more important that everyone has the same basis. Try play MOBA and someone can max his skill 5 seconds earlier than you because he has paid for that. You have two ppl with same skill the one with the advantage wins. So why not make it monthly from the beginning?

Edited by Busama

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Fix 2: Don't agree.  I would much rather see everyone get the two profession trees regardless of VIP as a solution, if that is deemed a problem.  So 2/1/1 and 2/2/2.

I mean aesthetically 1/1/1 - 2/2/2 is more pleasing, but if the real issue as seemed to be indicated in the live stream was the over interdependence in the professions, then simply correct that by giving everyone 2/1/1.  That takes away some if not all of the potential P2W aspect of VIP.

That would also clear up the double down in combat advantage, because then everyone COULD have made the choice to go that way.

 

 

I would also like to +1 this idea.

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4 hours ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Would you consider it P2W if I gave ACE 10,000 bucks to have a max level character? This is an extreme example, but it is really the same thing. Paying money to train twice as fast and gain a skill advantage has nothing to do with convenience. Convenience is being able to time bank 3 weeks opposed to 24 hours.

I think we just disagree with what P2W is. I 100% think that paying more money to be able to train twice as fast is P2W, but that is just me. I also want to point out I will be buying VIP. I still think this is unfair for non-VIP. I don't want an advantage because I paid more money, that is stupid in my opinion.

I think that you are hyperbolizing a straw man argument for yourself.  Perhaps you should open a dictionary and see what convenience means.  I do think we disagree on what P2W is.  

You seem to think that any advantage that you get from paying is P2W.  Of course VIP will give you an advantage.  If you have VIP will you defeat everyone who doesnt, I dont think so.  A 5% or 10% advantage is not P2W.  Training twice as fast does not equal a 100% advantage in PvP.  Calm down and have a cup of matcha green tea.  The sky isnt falling Chicken Little.

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7 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Fix 2: Don't agree.  I would much rather see everyone get the two profession trees regardless of VIP as a solution, if that is deemed a problem.  So 2/1/1 and 2/2/2.

I mean aesthetically 1/1/1 - 2/2/2 is more pleasing, but if the real issue as seemed to be indicated in the live stream was the over interdependence in the professions, then simply correct that by giving everyone 2/1/1.  That takes away some if not all of the potential P2W aspect of VIP.

That would also clear up the double down in combat advantage, because then everyone COULD have made the choice to go that way.

I like this, and think that it would be the ideal way to maintain balance between VIP and non-VIP without having to restructure the trees.

Another option, which would require more work, would be to move the harvesting skills into their own category, and then move the rest of the exploration skills under combat, perhaps renaming them to "scouting". (Or make combat and exploration/scouting sub-categories under a more general category like "warfare".)

Combat, crafting, and harvesting are all independent tasks. So being able to train in more than one only gives players more options.

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12 minutes ago, Eldisaro said:

I like this, and think that it would be the ideal way to maintain balance between VIP and non-VIP without having to restructure the trees.

Another option, which would require more work, would be to move the harvesting skills into their own category, and then move the rest of the exploration skills under combat, perhaps renaming them to "scouting". (Or make combat and exploration/scouting sub-categories under a more general category like "warfare".)

Combat, crafting, and harvesting are all independent tasks. So being able to train in more than one only gives players more options.

I disagree the only solution is 1/1/1 and vip 1/2/2 no one should get access to multiple vessel independent skill trees. Personally I think this diminishes the choice of being in combat exploration or crafting.

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22 minutes ago, Khoth said:

I disagree the only solution is 1/1/1 and vip 1/2/2 no one should get access to multiple vessel independent skill trees. Personally I think this diminishes the choice of being in combat exploration or crafting.

Happily, that argument has been made and gone around and around for months, with ACE coming to the decision they did.  I seriously doubt there is anything left to even say, that has not already been said about the topic, so like it or not, I doubt very much they will change their minds back.

 

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2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Happily, that argument has been made and gone around and around for months, with ACE coming to the decision they did.  I seriously doubt there is anything left to even say, that has not already been said about the topic, so like it or not, I doubt very much they will change their minds back.

 

I know, and agree it is probably a fools hope. But the only way to guarantee getting what you don't want is to not voice your opinion.

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25 minutes ago, Khoth said:

I disagree the only solution is 1/1/1 and vip 1/2/2 no one should get access to multiple vessel independent skill trees. Personally I think this diminishes the choice of being in combat exploration or crafting.

Players can always be crafters, explorers, and warriors by creating multiple accounts. So the choice is not as big as it might seem.

This isn't just about VIP vs. non-VIP. This is also about VIP vs. multiple accounts.

VIP accounts can now train at the same rate as two non-VIP accounts, with the added benefit of being able to have more race/class combinations. So there is now more of an incentive to go with VIP.

And within each category there is still a lot of specialization. So maybe somebody is good at making swords and fighting with swords. But what about all the other weapons and armor? Plus, nobody is going to be able to single-handedly win any campaign. So there is already a significant amount of interdependence woven into the core of the game.

Players still need to actually spend time crafting, harvesting, and fighting in order to win campaigns. Simply having skills in those categories won't do anything on its own. What training in multiple professions does is give players more flexibility in how they work with others for each situation they might encounter in the various campaigns.

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3 hours ago, Eldisaro said:

Players can always be crafters, explorers, and warriors by creating multiple accounts. So the choice is not as big as it might seem.

This isn't just about VIP vs. non-VIP. This is also about VIP vs. multiple accounts.

VIP accounts can now train at the same rate as two non-VIP accounts, with the added benefit of being able to have more race/class combinations. So there is now more of an incentive to go with VIP.

The problem is, multiple accounts will always win. You can have 100 accounts creating exp tomes for just one account. "Sell" your inventory slots to export goods out of campaign worlds, etc. multiple accounts will always win and you cant prevent it without damaging the rest of the player base.

If you try to make VIP more valuable you will hurt the non VIPs more than the multiple accounts.

 

So the main focus should be that VIP is more convenience and less an advantage. And there is the problem with 1 vs 2 training slots in profession. You get those benefits no matter which character you play. While you can only play 1 class and 1 race it doesn't give you any advantage in those two categories, its just convenience if you cant decide which class you want to play or want to play different classes/races.

But with profession you always have that advantage. Lets make an example:

Its Tuesday night, there are not that many people online. A non-VIP decide to take the risk and go out gathering alone. At some point the non-VIP gatherer meets an enemy gatherer and they start a fight. Both invested the same exp/time into their gathering tree, but the enemy has VIP and also invested into his combat abilities, giving him an advantage in this fight, because he paid money. In the end, the non-VIP lost, not because there were more enemies, or an assassin, not because the other gatherer had better fighting skills or better gear, no it was only because of his small stat advantage in combat.

The game isn't designed around 1v1 situations, thats true, but it goes all the ways up from 1v1 to small skirmishes to large sieges. The players with VIP will have an advantage. Even if it is just a 10% advantage, this sums up, whether its the 1v1 like above or a group fight, where the one groups healer needs to be hit 1-2 times more often allowing him to cast that needed heal that decides the battle.

Even if you make a tournament, who is the best fighter on this server, it is not decided by who has the best skill wins (some luck is needed sometimes too). Its like who has VIP > invested in 2 times combat > has the better gear > has the better skill.

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@why_meyou are right. It is basically the same with guilds. Guild with 20 VIPS vs. guild with 20 NON-VIPS. @zolaz P2W is not 100% win chance but probably there are different definitions out there. Maybe we could ask Oxford to include a definition in their dictionary ;) Even if it is not P2W but P2 have advantage in Battle for a PVP based game that is not a really good decision in my opinion, especially if you are publicly offering a game without subscription but in the end subscription gives you a battle advantage.

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I understand the need for VIP to give players more than cosmetics and fluff but on the other hand players becoming Swiss pocket knives being able train combat and crafting will imo be detrimental to the interdependencies between specialisations we all expect to be a key feature of Crowfall.

The solution could be to make some skill categories mutually exclusive for training by VIPs. So for example you would be able to train combat and exploration or crafting and harversting in the two slots granted by VIP but not combat and crafting or harvesting.

 

Edited by Belantis

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11 hours ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Would you consider it P2W if I gave ACE 10,000 bucks to have a max level character?

weee

Quote

EVE ONLINE PLAYER BUYS NEARLY $7,000 WORTH OF SKILL INJECTORS

EVE Online‘s passive skill training system lets players slowly accumulate skill points over time, and until recently there was no way to actively skip ahead of that the curve. With the recent introduction of Skill Extractors, players can now remove skill points from their characters’ heads and trade them on the open market as Skill Injectors. Other players can then buy the injectors and shove them into their own heads for a boost in skill points that can then be assigned to any skill. Tens of thousands of injectors have been bought and sold since they were introduced just a few days ago, and a few injector addicts have already come out of the woodwork.

Player Stromgren of DARKNESS. alliance used injectors to become EVE‘s highest-skilled character literally overnight, adding over 100 million skill points that would normally take 4.3 years to train passively. Stromgren gets only 150,000 skill points per injector due to diminishing returns for high-skill characters, so he needed to use 677 injectors to get to the point he is at now. At current market value, those injectors are worth around 437 billion ISK or 350 PLEX, putting the real-world value of his escapade at between $5204.75 and $6982.5 depending on the cash value used for PLEX. There’s no way to tell whether Stromgren purchased the injectors with ISK from the sale of PLEX or ISK he already had, but it nevertheless represents a huge cost.

+

Quote

EVE PLAYER USES $28,000 OF SKILL INJECTORS TO CREATE MAX CHARACTER

We recently brought you the story of EVE Online player Stromgren who had bought almost $7,000 worth of skill injectors to become the highest-skilled character in the game overnight. A bizarre twist on that story has since emerged when another player named IronBank created a brand-new character and used around $28,000 worth of injectors to max out every possible skill he could acquire to level 5. A total of around 2,846 injectors were used to boost the new character up to 473,344,000 skill points that would normally take over 20 years of skill training time to acquire. Those injectors are currently worth over 1.7 trillion ISK or about 1,423 PLEX, which would currently cost between $21,161 and $28,446 to buy with cash.

The response from the EVE Online community has been understandably mixed. While some point out that having a max-skill character doesn’t provide any real benefit over a well-planned 30-50 million skill point character, others players feel that being able to create a three-day-old max character cheapens their own time investment in EVE. Players have also highlighted the fact that the player behind IronBank used the immense ISK profits from running a lucrative gambling website to fund the skill injectors, and he did it all live on stream to drum up further interest in his online gambling services.

Stromgren now sits at number 2 in the skill point rankings and has injected another 60 million skill points since our previous story, bringing his character up to 400 million skill points.

 

Edited by Tinnis

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