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Choices No Longer Have Consequences

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I don't like it, because in two years it becomes meaningless. Once the first person maxes out combat, or any other profession, that restriction has no meaning, simply because you can't do two things at once anyway.

What about a Total Skill Cap plus a moving skill cap. Once the moving skill cap reaches the total skill cap, we remove the moving skill cap? The total skill cap doesn't solve the P2W option presented by tomes. That is what I want to address.

37 minutes ago, Talizar said:

Are most agreeing that the VIP is essentially P2W?  I am not seeing much evidence against this.  While the final roll out is unknown at this time I am very very leary of a scheme where the monetization of the game is done in this way.  If they want to offer a subscription that adds value in some way then do it.  But to allow people to freely spend unlimited funds is unsettling. 

I think Tomes are P2W because they allow you to gain skills faster by spending money (basically the definition of P2W). I believe VIP allowing more profession training than non-VIP is P2W. I honestly think its not debatable, there are some who would say it is.

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11 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

What about a Total Skill Cap plus a moving skill cap. Once the moving skill cap reaches the total skill cap, we remove the moving skill cap? The total skill cap doesn't solve the P2W option presented by tomes. That is what I want to address.

 

I would rather an in game way to earn the same progress advancement, that does not require going through other players who have spent money. I honestly don't like the "passive real time is the only way to earn XP" model. I much prefer mixed training.  Passive for those that prefer to not focus on gaining XP, and just want to play the game, and active for those willing/wanting to climb that skill tree faster.

I think the skill training time is a bit like saying all characters can cap at level 100 for example in a traditional MMO, while at the same time only having ways to earn XP up to level 50 so when they get to 50, they just stop. The reality is that from a practical point of view, there is no end game content available to players, especially as it relates to crafting,  until X amount of time has passed.

The shallow combat power curve to me should mean day 1 accounts, and accounts that come in 5 years from now, are still able to work together side by side with both giving meaningful contributions.

If that doesn't work, then the passive skill training model has totally failed in it's goal. If skill training makes you win, then it has failed.  That's why I don't think it even CAN be P2W, because it shouldn't make you win.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I would rather an in game way to earn the same progress advancement, that does not require going through other players who have spent money. I honestly don't like the "passive real time is the only way to earn XP" model. I much prefer mixed training.  Passive for those that prefer to not focus on gaining XP, and just want to play the game, and active for those willing/wanting to climb that skill tree faster.

I think the skill training time is a bit like saying all characters can cap at level 100 for example in a traditional MMO, while at the same time only having ways to earn XP up to level 50 so when they get to 50, they just stop. The reality is that from a practical point of view, there is no end game content available to players, especially as it relates to crafting,  until X amount of time has passed.

The shallow combat power curve to me should mean day 1 accounts, and accounts that come in 5 years from now, are still able to work together side by side with both giving meaningful contributions.

If that doesn't work, then the passive skill training model has totally failed in it's goal. If skill training makes you win, then it has failed.  That's why I don't think it even CAN be P2W, because it shouldn't make you win.

It seems like Crowfall always tries to mimic EVE, so lets use that as an example. Day 1 accounts are worthless compared to 5 year accounts. I quit EVE because it took too long to become PVP ready. I either had to P2W or sub for a few months prior to trying to PVP to be able to play. For some reason Crowfall is copying this model, when they have created a PVP focused game. Lets keep in mind EVE only gets away with their Sub based, optional P2W currency because they have created an amazing game. This game model doesn't exist anymore and I think its foolish for Crowfall to copy it.

The problem is they introduced a P2W system and in my opinion they broke this game until they get rid of the P2W system. I understand that your skills are supposed to be a shallow power curve. The problem with that is the vet player will already have a leg up by understanding more game mechanics and skills and knowing how to counter them (Think LoL. The more champs you have played, the better player you are as you know how to counter people). Now we are letting people buy up their skills so they have an inherent power advantage before we even get to the understanding game mechanic advantage. This RUINS the new player experience. I am one of those weird people who will get their ass kicked over and over and keep coming back and I see the potential problem in this. Many gamers die a couple times and get looted and they are done forever.

I understand you not liking the passive training only, but coming from PVP games like UO and Darkfall that encouraged macroing (had to do it to compete) I actually think this could be good if implemented well. I like the fact we are all on an even power level and that is part of the reason my MMORPG PVP often gets replaced with Survival type game PVP (even playing field). I also think we are too far along for Crowfall to try to introduce active XP without going back on promises and making major changes to the game.

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16 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

It seems like Crowfall always tries to mimic EVE, so lets use that as an example. Day 1 accounts are worthless compared to 5 year accounts. I quit EVE because it took too long to become PVP ready. I either had to P2W or sub for a few months prior to trying to PVP to be able to play. For some reason Crowfall is copying this model, when they have created a PVP focused game. Lets keep in mind EVE only gets away with their Sub based, optional P2W currency because they have created an amazing game. This game model doesn't exist anymore and I think its foolish for Crowfall to copy it.

The problem is they introduced a P2W system and in my opinion they broke this game until they get rid of the P2W system. I understand that your skills are supposed to be a shallow power curve. The problem with that is the vet player will already have a leg up by understanding more game mechanics and skills and knowing how to counter them (Think LoL. The more champs you have played, the better player you are as you know how to counter people). Now we are letting people buy up their skills so they have an inherent power advantage before we even get to the understanding game mechanic advantage. This RUINS the new player experience. I am one of those weird people who will get their ass kicked over and over and keep coming back and I see the potential problem in this. Many gamers die a couple times and get looted and they are done forever.

I understand you not liking the passive training only, but coming from PVP games like UO and Darkfall that encouraged macroing (had to do it to compete) I actually think this could be good if implemented well. I like the fact we are all on an even power level and that is part of the reason my MMORPG PVP often gets replaced with Survival type game PVP (even playing field). I also think we are too far along for Crowfall to try to introduce active XP without going back on promises and making major changes to the game.

Agree on the EvE thing.  I think I understand they "why", but I think they mirrored it far too closely. I think the counterbalance is that day one, a new player could team up with a guild, that has a stable production and piles of mid grade items for them to put on. Todd and Blair both love twinking, so I'm not surprised the game mechanics encourage it. I think in EvE you're stuck in LaShi ships until you train into them.  (If I'm wrong I'm wrong, never played it myself.) 

Just because it's your day one, does not mean you have to dress like one. :) 

Sorry, but I am going to call you out on the ruined new player experience. This isn't a MOBA where you find yourself as a bronze fighting against platinum players if you don't want to be.  I am sure they will set up campaigns that are more new player friendly with maximum training time limits, zero imports, and low quality resources, for new players to cut their teeth on.  If you venture into the Dregs on day one, you sorta get what you deserve, same as if you purchased a platinum leveled account for a MOBA and jumped straight into ranked matches. (I've seen that).

PUBG is all about getting you ass kicked OVER and OVER, and has gone nowhere in usership but up, beating DOTA for twitch stream counts.  People don't mind losing if they feel they had a chance, if only they had done X instead of Y, if it's an expected part of the game, and if even when you die you still had a crap ton of fun along the way.

That is what CF has to make sure they don't lose sight of, that every moment is as fun as possible.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Agree on the EvE thing.  I think I understand they "why", but I think they mirrored it far too closely. I think the counterbalance is that day one, a new player could team up with a guild, that has a stable production and piles of mid grade items for them to put on. Todd and Blair both love twinking, so I'm not surprised the game mechanics encourage it. I think in EvE you're stuck in LaShi ships until you train into them.  (If I'm wrong I'm wrong, never played it myself.) 

Just because it's your day one, does not mean you have to dress like one. :) 

Sorry, but I am going to call you out on the ruined new player experience. This isn't a MOBA where you find yourself as a bronze fighting against platinum players if you don't want to be.  I am sure they will set up campaigns that are more new player friendly with maximum training time limits, zero imports, and low quality resources, for new players to cut their teeth on.  If you venture into the Dregs on day one, you sorta get what you deserve, same as if you purchased a platinum leveled account for a MOBA and jumped straight into ranked matches. (I've seen that).

PUBG is all about getting you ass kicked OVER and OVER, and has gone nowhere in usership but up, beating DOTA for twitch stream counts.  People don't mind losing if they feel they had a chance, if only they had done X instead of Y, if it's an expected part of the game, and if even when you die you still had a crap ton of fun along the way.

That is what CF has to make sure they don't lose sight of, that every moment is as fun as possible.

I have no problem with you calling me out.

I think the truth might be somewhere in the middle of what we are both saying. I have played UO and have played Darkfall and have watched players rage quit the game because they were killed and lost their loot. This is somewhat comparable to Crowfall, but not completely as gear is only somewhat permanent and the focus of the game is to engage in these PVP encounters.

PVP players learn that everything that is in your inventory is not yours. It is only yours once you bank it. This is what hardcore PVP players who play EVE, UO and Darkfall live by. This mental reasoning allows us to go out again and again and lose our gear in combat. We decided the gear was gone the moment we equipped it or went out to PVP wearing it.

You bring up PUBG, but this is far less comparable to Crowfall. In a Battle Royale you have NO EXPECTATION of keeping any of that gear beyond your current match. This is what allows peoples brains to justify losing the gear. There was 0 ownership because in 20 minutes it is all gone and the game is reset. It is not a persistent world.

Crowfall is probably somewhere in between both of our examples. Semi persistent worlds with import/export restrictions and different campaign rule sets differentiate it from my examples, but I still believe it is more comparable than PUBG that has no persistence beyond that short 5-30 minute round.

 

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How much more effective does a maxed out skill tree make your character than someone who has not maxed it out?  10% more powerful?  50% more powerful?  when you factor gear in a new person who gets a very good set of equipment from their guild or friend could potentially be stronger than someone who has maxed out a skill tree but only has mediocre gear.  then you have to factor in that you're not going to be fighting 1v1 fights but more than likely group vs group (or a group ganking a single player) and balance sort of ceases to matter at that point, it's more of how many bodies do you have to throw at the enemy.  I think people are overthinking the effect skill trees have on gameplay because fights are never going to be perfectly balanced or fair.  More than likley you're going to have one side with a mass of players fighting another group with a mass of players and builds, tactics and everything else will go out the window as it just ends up being a giant mudpit fight.

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On 9/21/2017 at 0:49 AM, jasta85 said:

How much more effective does a maxed out skill tree make your character than someone who has not maxed it out?  10% more powerful?  50% more powerful?  when you factor gear in a new person who gets a very good set of equipment from their guild or friend could potentially be stronger than someone who has maxed out a skill tree but only has mediocre gear.  then you have to factor in that you're not going to be fighting 1v1 fights but more than likely group vs group (or a group ganking a single player) and balance sort of ceases to matter at that point, it's more of how many bodies do you have to throw at the enemy.  I think people are overthinking the effect skill trees have on gameplay because fights are never going to be perfectly balanced or fair.  More than likley you're going to have one side with a mass of players fighting another group with a mass of players and builds, tactics and everything else will go out the window as it just ends up being a giant mudpit fight.

 

You're absolutely right.

With low tier equipment, player training will be much more of an edge.  When people are running around in blues/purples player training won't matter- the equipment and the ability of the player will matter far more.  Full training in combat trees does not close the gap between basic weapons and a grey advanced weapon, but it would probably close the gap between a grey and a green.

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8 hours ago, Kith said:

You're absolutely right.

With low tier equipment, player training will be much more of an edge.  When people are running around in blues/purples player training won't matter- the equipment and the ability of the player will matter far more.  Full training in combat trees does not close the gap between basic weapons and a grey advanced weapon, but it would probably close the gap between a grey and a green.

Early on they said something like 33% each for gear-training-skill. As we don't have a realistic game version to make accurate guesstimates, we don't know how much gear, training, or even player skill will matter.

Beyond promising a "shallow power curve" which doesn't mean much, saying something will or won't matter is assumption. 

IMO, if they are going to invest so much time in developing a training system and then require us to take quite a bit of time to progress, then have it as sort of meh whatever, seems like a waste.

If training isn't a huge deal and tomes are insignificant, so be it, but again, why bother in the first place?

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5 hours ago, APE said:

Early on they said something like 33% each for gear-training-skill. As we don't have a realistic game version to make accurate guesstimates, we don't know how much gear, training, or even player skill will matter.

Beyond promising a "shallow power curve" which doesn't mean much, saying something will or won't matter is assumption. 

IMO, if they are going to invest so much time in developing a training system and then require us to take quite a bit of time to progress, then have it as sort of meh whatever, seems like a waste.

If training isn't a huge deal and tomes are insignificant, so be it, but again, why bother in the first place?

This has always been my thought on skill training.  If it doesn't matter, it shouldn't exist, because all it will do is create an artificial mental barrier to entry for new players.

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Just a few small thoughts on this, If you are willing an able to do VIP and financially support the growth of the game. That is great and you should be able to and, be given a reward for it. I started supporting the game in 2015 and, will keep supporting it threw VIP. There has to be some short of advantage of a VIP vs non VIP. You are keeping the game alive. Not everyone will ever be 100% happy but the game will be fun VIP or non VIP.

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I have an honest question. From my understanding of the video I would pay (you) the tome maker an in game currency of goods or services. Ie: I trade/sell you this weapon i made or these goods i have harvested and you give me a tome good for up to 72 hours in one tree for me to learn. I still have a 24 hr bank cap so i can spend this time but i cant really overflow cause i will stop learning on my own. How is this P2W? Im not paying real money, i am paying in the  time it took to collect and craft to trade/sell for the item. Unless i am missing something from the video this doesn't really get me ahead enough to win it just gets me closer to the people who started ahead of me. Are there ways to abuse this, im sure someone will find some, but i dont think it breaks anything.  I personally am more miffed at the fact i am going to have to log into crowfall from crappy cruise ship wifi or overseas while on vacation just to spend my time bank so i keep banking. 24 hours vs one whole month is more of a disparity to me than learning 2 things at a time vs 1 or 24 hrs vs 72 hrs. I work 16-24 hr shifts, that makes it hard to check in once a day every day. I guess i just dont see how this is a pay to win scenario as even having all the skills doesn't guarantee wining. Even a veteran of the game can get killed and looted by a first time player under the right circumstances. Maybe someone can break  down for me how it would genuinely be a pay real world money and win this game scenario just from learning at a faster rate. Maybe im just naive. 

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Meisenp First of Pay to win does not literally mean winning necessarily (if so Crowfall the only MMO literally that really would even be able to get close to it, as no other MMO's ever can truly be won, there is always more to do, though here we have campaigns that can be literally win), so Pay to win (or P2W) is more a term to gain some power that are otherwise very hard if not impossible to get otherwise (vary a bit the degree for it to be P2W from person to person).

That out of the way the main concern I see people having is someone buying a bunch of alt accounts, and then bank skill training on the alts and make tome and trade to the main account, to consume there. It has however since this topic was active been confirmed that there will be an upper limit to how much training one account can receive from any source (normal training or tomes), equal to the time an account that would have VIP and been training without gaps since launch, that as well as the diminishing return have more or less put a stop the the P2W concerns for all but the much stubborn of P2W claimers (and there will always find someone who will claim just about any game P2W no matter how little it is

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If I'm not misunderstanding the Tomb, it can't bypass what the first training player has. If we had skill points, like in Eve, then you could never pass up the highest skill point player in the game. If you had 5m points and player 1 had 7m then you could only obtain 2m points to catch up but you couldn't get over that 7m wall.


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20 hours ago, jetah said:

If I'm not misunderstanding the Tomb, it can't bypass what the first training player has. If we had skill points, like in Eve, then you could never pass up the highest skill point player in the game. If you had 5m points and player 1 had 7m then you could only obtain 2m points to catch up but you couldn't get over that 7m wall.

Correct.  Todd added that as his solution to the problem quite some time ago. Haven't heard much from the the P2W crowd about tomes since them.

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5 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Correct.  Todd added that as his solution to the problem quite some time ago. Haven't heard much from the the P2W crowd about tomes since them.

nice to know.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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On 9/20/2017 at 10:49 PM, jasta85 said:

How much more effective does a maxed out skill tree make your character than someone who has not maxed it out?  10% more powerful?  50% more powerful?  when you factor gear in a new person who gets a very good set of equipment from their guild or friend could potentially be stronger than someone who has maxed out a skill tree but only has mediocre gear.  then you have to factor in that you're not going to be fighting 1v1 fights but more than likely group vs group (or a group ganking a single player) and balance sort of ceases to matter at that point, it's more of how many bodies do you have to throw at the enemy.  I think people are overthinking the effect skill trees have on gameplay because fights are never going to be perfectly balanced or fair.  More than likley you're going to have one side with a mass of players fighting another group with a mass of players and builds, tactics and everything else will go out the window as it just ends up being a giant mudpit fight.

This is exactly what I was thinking.  How much of an advantage does a maxed out skill tree give vs high tier equipment?  I feel like the skill trees aren't going to provide more of a bonus than equipment at a certain point.  If the skill trees only account for say 5% of your total power then it's not a huge issue though it is an advantage.

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