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Choices No Longer Have Consequences

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26 minutes ago, Verot said:

There is a very simple solution that appears obvious to several people. Cap account total training time allocation to the amount that could be earned by a single VIP account since the launch of the game.

I certainly agree this is a good place to start with the tweaks.  A "catch-up" mechanic, not a "get ahead" work around. 

(Although, would have been nice not to have to spend 1.5 years just learning how to break rocks....still hoping they rethink the time to train the harvesting lines)

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3 minutes ago, Wormboy said:

So how is catch-up needed before launch?

It isn't needed prior to launch but if they plan on having one, figuring it out now so we know what to expect is appreciated. I'd rather not invest my time/money into something without knowing what they plan for something so important and potentially game changing. Rather know now if I'm included or not in "this game won't be for everyone."

IMO, passive training needs some sort of catch up regardless of how shallow the training power curve might be. EVE seems to be the standard and where they are getting inspiration and they have a system in place. Maybe it wasn't there day one, but if it is a known issue that such a system faces, why wait?

Obviously there are some potential problems that will need to be addressed prior to launch as many have pointed out.

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1 minute ago, APE said:

It isn't needed prior to launch but if they plan on having one, figuring it out now so we know what to expect is appreciated. I'd rather not invest my time/money into something without knowing what they plan for something so important and potentially game changing. Rather know now if I'm included or not in "this game won't be for everyone."

IMO, passive training needs some sort of catch up regardless of how shallow the training power curve might be. EVE seems to be the standard and where they are getting inspiration and they have a system in place. Maybe it wasn't there day one, but if it is a known issue that such a system faces, why wait?

Obviously there are some potential problems that will need to be addressed prior to launch as many have pointed out.

Implementing something like this a year down the road is fine.  With it being pre-alpha there focus needs to be on stuff that actually matters.  A catch up mechanic can easily be tested and implemented later on.  If this goes live day 1 it's just another cash grab and nothing more.

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2 minutes ago, Kirchhoff said:

I like the concept.  The only problem I see is that players that start at day 1 will never have a need to buy tomes (they will always have full training - assuming they keep up with it).

I think a better solution would be to say that you cannot use tomes in a "current tier".  A "current tier" being the skill tree level a day 1 player would be at (on a direct path).  So a day 1 player could still use tomes to broaden out a bit, but would never gain an advantage over someone in a dedicated line.

Example:  You have spent all your time to be the best trained blacksmith possible.  You cannot use tomes to become a better blacksmith, however you can use them to train some of the basics skills of gathering wood.  But someone who spent all their time training to harvest wood will always be better than you (until you are both max).

I am not sure the "twinking" issue will be that big of a deal, but I think it can be solved pretty simply with a "cap" concept (however they implement it).

No, it lets you bypass total account training time if you do that. My question is, for a game that supposes that choices have consequences then why would you ever allow a day one player to use tomes at all? If that player needs to train in gathering wood then they can train that skill themselves, because you know, its a........choice. 

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51 minutes ago, Caenth said:

And they can both create swords. I don't want this possibility. I want what the OP talked about, I want 100% interdependence from the professions. This will ensure a strong community that needs each other to be able to accomplish anything. I even created my guild structure around this design. This change just made Crowfall on step closer to become WoW. I don't like that one bit.

Crowfall is no where near wow and "interdependence" is a very broad term.

Quote
noun
 
  1. the dependence of two or more people or things on each other.
    "the new economic interdependence of the two nations"
     

General grouping activities (pvping, sieging and harvest parties) all fall under the category of "interdependence". The guy who specs in combat and black smith might be able to craft his own weapon (not the end of the world), but he still needs the ore and leather/wood if he goes that route. If someone goes all in on crafting (black smith, mining) they lose out on combat.

There might be an argument for double dipping (i.e. being a carp/blacksmith), but I think you're blowing this out of proportion. If anything, this is way healthier for the game. The original system was unsustainable and extremely cumbersome. It's okay to depend on someone, but you shouldn't be joined at the hip; that's no fun from a game perspective.

There is also an added benefit. Smaller groups / guilds of players might actually be able to thrive in this environment, where as before if you weren't part of a 100+ guild or had a network of friends in other guilds you were pretty much screwed.

 
Edited by Helix

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35 minutes ago, Verot said:

If the devs don't implement a cap on total training time, then they might as well admit that this mechanic is a money grab, not a catch up mechanic.

Doubt they will admit to such, but been pretty obvious from early on that VIP would end up walking the P2W line and the tome addition has the dipping their toes further over the line. 

Depending on my own view of P2W for those that might break out their gamer dictionaries.

10 minutes ago, Wormboy said:

Implementing something like this a year down the road is fine.  With it being pre-alpha there focus needs to be on stuff that actually matters.  A catch up mechanic can easily be tested and implemented later on.  If this goes live day 1 it's just another cash grab and nothing more.

While I agree there are some more serious issues/systems, no clue how much effort goes into creating each. Highly doubt they could "fix" combat or whatever in the same amount of time, but for a fully functioning product, all of the boxes will need to be checked or it won't matter.

As I mentioned, rather know now what this system in particular will look like as I don't want to run into another gotcha situation. Might be able to deal with less than ideal combat, but systems that highly encourage wallets opening all the time to compete are not for me.

10 minutes ago, Verot said:

No, it lets you bypass total account training time if you do that. My question is, for a game that supposes that choices have consequences then why would you ever allow a day one player to use tomes at all? If that player needs to train in gathering wood then they can train that skill themselves, because you know, its a........choice. 

All choices, be it devs or players have pros/cons/cost. I like this new system as a whole, but restrictions will be needed.

Hard caps based on game/account age, diminishing returns, use timers, etc can all make it much less of an issue but no matter what there will be some that think it is game breaking.

Really don't see a huge difference between someone buying 20 accounts or spending even more (assumed) buying up tomes for one as long as there is some hard limits in place and someone not spending can still compete relatively equally in their chosen path.

9 minutes ago, Wormboy said:

Where you been Ape?  Haven't seen you in ages.

Around. Waiting for one of these games to come out. The endless "pre-alpha" and forum theory crafting gets old for me. Maybe once they wipe and start implementing some of the major changes I'll bother logging in to this one.

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2 minutes ago, APE said:

Doubt they will admit to such, but been pretty obvious from early on that VIP would end up walking the P2W line and the tome addition has the dipping their toes further over the line. 

Depending on my own view of P2W for those that might break out their gamer dictionaries.

While I agree there are some more serious issues/systems, no clue how much effort goes into creating each. Highly doubt they could "fix" combat or whatever in the same amount of time, but for a fully functioning product, all of the boxes will need to be checked or it won't matter.

As I mentioned, rather know now what this system in particular will look like as I don't want to run into another gotcha situation. Might be able to deal with less than ideal combat, but systems that highly encourage wallets opening all the time to compete are not for me.

All choices, be it devs or players have pros/cons/cost. I like this new system as a whole, but restrictions will be needed.

Hard caps based on game/account age, diminishing returns, use timers, etc can all make it much less of an issue but no matter what there will be some that think it is game breaking.

Really don't see a huge difference between someone buying 20 accounts or spending even more (assumed) buying up tomes for one as long as there is some hard limits in place and someone not spending can still compete relatively equally in their chosen path.

Around. Waiting for one of these games to come out. The endless "pre-alpha" and forum theory crafting gets old for me. Maybe once they wipe and start implementing some of the major changes I'll bother logging in to this one.

That's our biggest thing is the money grab this is leading into.

We don't touch CF testing much at all if any these days either.  If you get bored, a few of us on PoE while waiting for something better to come out.

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1 hour ago, Caenth said:

And they can both create swords. I don't want this possibility. I want what the OP talked about, I want 100% interdependence from the professions. This will ensure a strong community that needs each other to be able to accomplish anything. I even created my guild structure around this design. This change just made Crowfall on step closer to become WoW. I don't like that one bit.

I advocated for additional general trains but I never advocated for double dipping. Hopefully they consider removing the ability to double dip in the professions. It's especially bad in combat where if you can train both armor and weapons you can gain additional power. 

However, if the double dipping is removed we have plenty of interdependence and I'm glad they incentivized VIP by adding additional skill trains. 

CraftingInterdependencies.jpg

Edited by blazzen

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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2 hours ago, scree said:

I'd be fine with this system if they had imposed a restriction

The game can easily have this restriction for anyone who wants it. Do it yourself. Count up the time and do the math and if you're going to go over the restriction then don't use the tome. If that's what you want for your game play, you can most certainly have  it. It can make the game as hard as you want. If you want hardcore death mode, you can have that too. Delete your character if you die. If that doesn't work then make a new account if you die. Your imagination is your limit.

If you want your game to be a certain way, it can be. If you want my gameplay to match your, well, tough breasts. Just think of it as another challenge you get to overcome and when you do, you'll be having that much more fun. YaY for self imposed, player driven restrictions.


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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3 minutes ago, blazzen said:

I advocated for additional general trains but I never advocated for double dipping. Hopefully they consider removing the ability to double dip in the professions. It's especially bad in combat where if you can train both armor and weapons you can gain additional power. 

However, if the double dipping is removed we have plenty of interdependence and I'm glad they incentivized VIP by adding additional skill trains.

If you don't want to double dip, you don't have to. Just train one slot. Solved. You can have your game be exactly as you just described. YAY!


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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1 hour ago, Caenth said:

I don't have to see the sun to know it is shining. Same with this change to the skill system, I can see where it is heading without having seen it in action. When the majority sees the problems, it is already too late.

Good thing it is not you making the game or the game being made just for you. Its being made for all of us and we all see this differently .

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1 hour ago, Venark said:

WoW decided to wait and work on a catch up mechanic years after launch. their solution as to hand people max level characters and starter gear. completely negating the time and effort people had to give to get to that point. it was over powered. testing this before the game launches allows us to balance it now instead of years later and releasing to full population an overpowered piece of crap.

 

To be fair, you didn't play endgame WoW until you leveled to max and were at least within 1 tier of current gear. Everything before that was just mandatory time sink. This was different in vanilla and possibly the first xpac.

Other than that, I agree with you 100% No reason to not work this out before it is needed.


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24 minutes ago, blazzen said:

However, if the double dipping is removed we have plenty of interdependence and I'm glad they incentivized VIP by adding additional skill trains. 

And I hate they added that. I had hoped @jtoddcoleman would see through the combination of VIP and skill training, but alas. I argued against this from the beginning and I don't think he didn't read my arguments. So his mind is made. I don't think anything I say will change his mind at this point. He seems confident this is the right solution. I am not. In the end it is his decision, his game and his right to change the design though. I just don't have to agree with it.

Imo, combining the VIP 'problem' with additional skill training is wrong to be begin with. They are two separate issues. First, the incentive to buy VIP doesn't have to fixed by adding mechanics to increase power by adding more skill training. You can give (cosmetic and other exclusive) incentives to VIP which I outlined before in another thread months ago. Second, extra general skill tree training (now called Professions) diminishes specializations and dependency. Even Todd agreed on this in the stream. In the past ACE themselves argued for strict specialization, because it creates stronger communities. This was a good reason to support this game. With that now being gone for a good chunk I'm not sure I like where this game is heading anymore.

I'm very sad ACE listened to a few very persistent and loud people who conveniently combined VIP and general skill training for their own purposes. A purpose that in my opinion is not healthy for the game and community in the long run.

 

Edited by Caenth

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i've already made my suggestion to fix the tome:

(time cap per tome use e.g. one per week or month. scale it on active age of account. new people can do more often.) 

(addition from others: dont add tomes until 3-6 months after launch?)


now to fix the "choice" element:

just tweak it so vip only grants x2 training for race and class - with profession remaining at x1.

</done>

Edited by Tinnis

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35 minutes ago, Surgemaster said:

The game can easily have this restriction for anyone who wants it. Do it yourself. Count up the time and do the math and if you're going to go over the restriction then don't use the tome. If that's what you want for your game play, you can most certainly have  it. It can make the game as hard as you want. If you want hardcore death mode, you can have that too. Delete your character if you die. If that doesn't work then make a new account if you die. Your imagination is your limit.

If you want your game to be a certain way, it can be. If you want my gameplay to match your, well, tough breasts. Just think of it as another challenge you get to overcome and when you do, you'll be having that much more fun. YaY for self imposed, player driven restrictions.

Found the P2W advocate.

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23 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

i've already made my suggestion to fix the tome:

(time cap per tome use e.g. one per week or month. scale it on active age of account. new people can do more often.) 

(addition from others: dont add tomes until 3-6 months after launch?)


now to fix the "choice" element:

just tweak it so vip only grants x2 training for race and class - with profession remaining at x1.

</done>

Todd already said they wont be in till months after release...


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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18 minutes ago, Caenth said:

And I hate they added that. I had hoped @jtoddcoleman would see through the combination of VIP and skill training, but alas. I argued against this from the beginning and I don't think he didn't read my arguments. So his mind is made. I don't think anything I say will change his mind at this point. He seems confident this is the right solution. I am not. In the end it is his decision, his game and his right to change the design though. I just don't have to agree with it.

Imo, combining the VIP 'problem' with additional skill training is wrong to be begin with. They are two separate issues. First, the incentive to buy VIP doesn't have to fixed by adding mechanics to increase power by adding more skill training. You can give (cosmetic and other exclusive) incentives to VIP which I outlined before in another thread months ago. Second, extra general skill tree training (now called Professions) diminishes specializations and dependency. Even Todd agreed on this in the stream. In the past ACE themselves argued for strict specialization, because it creates stronger communities. This was a good reason to support this game. With that now being gone for a good chunk I'm not sure I like where this game is heading anymore.

I'm very sad ACE listened to a few very persistent and loud people who conveniently combined VIP and general skill training for their own purposes. A purpose that in my opinion is not healthy for the game and community in the long run.

 

I understand where you are coming from, however without the introduction of a slew of new skills etc all this system does is speed up the time that hybrids become viable. At some point players were going to reach a level of training where they can start training a new profession. The specialist path is still an option, unless they force you to pick 2 of the 3 as some are advocating (I'm against this). At least with the ability to train 2 nodes in the same profession, albeit different trees, it still allows for specialist characters to exist. The combat/crafter will still be limited on how effective his/her gear will be compared to a player who fully trained in crafting.

There are still a few unknowns. Exactly how far do you have to train down one tree in order to unlock the next? 50%, 75%? How will they handle the ability to train 2 races for VIP when in the beginning there is only 1 tree available? Will basic tier 1 skill trees allow you to bypass the one node per tree restriction?

While I don't expect everyone to share my opinion on this matter, I personally see this change as good for the overall health of the game. Accounts will still be very unique in terms of skill selection and play style. It allows for small to mid size guilds to be effective. It has the potential to restrict some of the alt account issues we were inevitably going to see. It also helps with some pretty significant logistical issues as well as logical issues. I'm a master at mining copper nodes yet fail to grasp the concept of those pesky iron nodes etc.

To me the far greater issue that cropped up today was the skill tome mechanic. What is most concerning is that many in the community immediately saw red flags that were addressed in a very inadequate way, almost to the point that it made it seem they were well aware of the issue but pushed it through for other reasons (read, cash grab).

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