Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Scree

Choices No Longer Have Consequences

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, scree said:

I'd be fine with this system if they had imposed a restriction; that as the game ages a timer goes up with it. The max effective threshhold. 

For hardcore players, playing right from launch, they could never train beyond that timer. If you played from day 1, minute 0 you could never get ahead of that curve. That at least removes the ability for players to "correct" mistakes they've made. It would also stop people from using alts to funnel into a primary account.

Diminishing Returns is daring whales to spend more money, to get around the limitation.

If a new player joins after the games been out for exactly 1 year. He shouldn't be allowed to train more than 2 years worth of skills (assuming VIP subscription the whole time).

If they made these changes, then existing players could never correct mistakes they've made. They haven't stated this is a restriction. They just keep citing DR as a solution and its not.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily opposed to adding something like this (or the similar suggestion from Tinnis, limit the number of Tomes that an account can use over time).

Also, it should be pointed out that while the Time Bank is a necessary feature for launch, the Tomes won't be added until some time post-launch.  If I had to guess, I would say at least 3-6 months.

Lastly, please remember that the reason we revisited this system at all is because of the feedback you guys gave us on the last iteration.  We don't make these decisions in a vacuum.  I want to find the solution that works best for you, for us, and for the players who join our community in the future. To suggest that we "don't listen" is simply not true.

Todd

 


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

[Rules of Conduct]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Verot said:

Those choices/consequences are diminished significantly though. There is still a price to pay for choosing a bad path, but now you can correct that error much more quickly, if not completely. If you have the resources, diminishing returns be damned, you can not only correct the error but completely overcome it.

Why does anyone, OP specifically, consider this a bad thing?  

If you screw up your account, do you really think it's a good idea for the game to consider that account broken forever, probably driving the player from the game and never putting more money in?

This isn't a college or career choice, it's supposed to be a fun game we do for entertainment.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, jtoddcoleman said:

To be clear, I'm not necessarily opposed to adding something like this (or the similar suggestion from Tinnis, limit the number of Tomes that an account can use over time).

Also, it should be pointed out that while the Time Bank is a necessary feature for launch, the Tomes won't be added until some time post-launch.  If I had to guess, I would say at least 3-6 months.

Lastly, please remember that the reason we revisited this system at all is because of the feedback you guys gave us on the last iteration.  We don't make these decisions in a vacuum.  I want to find the solution that works best for you, for us, and for the players who join our community in the future. To suggest that we "don't listen" is simply not true.

Todd

 

with regards the "choice" aspect - other suggestion to retain decisions between combat, harvesting and crafting would be to retain profession as only x1 slot for VIP [however keep x2 slots for race and class]

prevents 'double dipping' of the core specs, which many people seem to be objecting to.

with regards tomes:

i dont see *active* players ever creating tomes

[i dont see what in game will be worth trading vip tokens or 'exp tomes' for given the value of either the player's $ or time/competitive skill progression cost....so only leaves RMT farmers or alt/guild account pooling]

*OR*

1+ year in when people have hit their "main spec goals" e.g. i've maxed out blacksmithing, is when there will be a huge influx of tome farming....

p.s. won't combat double dipping also increase the rate of 'damage inflation' between combat people and non combat people?

Edited by Tinnis

caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Why does anyone, OP specifically, consider this a bad thing?  

If you screw up your account, do you really think it's a good idea for the game to consider that account broken forever, probably driving the player from the game and never putting more money in?

This isn't a college or career choice, it's supposed to be a fun game we do for entertainment.  

We are talking about 2 different things.

1. Ability to purchase in game power through the unlimited use of skill tomes.

2. Ability to correct or respec your account at a future date.

As introduced the skill tome mechanic is not designed or intended to be a respec mechanic but a catch up mechanic with a massive loophole which allows for significant skill training advantages to those players who have the means. I don't even want to get into the topic of what happens if you are able to dupe skill tomes. For a game that advocates for choices to matter I would not expect the free will reset buttons present in many other games. However it is not unreasonable to have at some point a way to reallocate training. This could be implemented in many ways. While training normally, you can also flag a skill to "untrain" which would increase normal training by some percentage. You could argue for a complete 1:1 ratio or whatever percentage is deemed appropriate. Obviously you would not want instant respecs or you end up with a game that is purely flavor of the month, so respecs should either take time or have a diminishing return.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Tinnis said:

with regards the "choice" aspect - other suggestion to retain decisions between combat, harvesting and crafting would be to retain profession as only x1 slot for VIP [however keep x2 slots for race and class]

prevents 'double dipping' of the core specs, which many people seem to be objecting to.

I'm all for the double dipping, as it is still a choice if you want to specialize or not. VIP should be the norm. Non-VIP players could use skill tomes to overcome any power curve issues in combat that might stem from double dipping. Players will be able to go hybrid crafter/combat or specialize and go crafter/crafter. If you force the splitting of profession training to different professions, the only thing you are doing is delaying the time it takes for them to be able to play the way they want. If you provide a carrot that allows them to get to the part of the game they want sooner without making it P2W then you might just entice more players to pick up VIP, which is a good thing for the long term health of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Tinnis said:

VIP combat double dipping is literally power for money though

My ability to effectively harvest while also being proficient in combat is also paying for power if you want to look at it that way. I can more easily defend my harvests and supply myself and friends compared to players who do not have VIP. VIP behaves as a force multiplier no matter how you look at it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Verot said:

We are talking about 2 different things.

1. Ability to purchase in game power through the unlimited use of skill tomes.

2. Ability to correct or respec your account at a future date.

As introduced the skill tome mechanic is not designed or intended to be a respec mechanic but a catch up mechanic with a massive loophole which allows for significant skill training advantages to those players who have the means. I don't even want to get into the topic of what happens if you are able to dupe skill tomes. For a game that advocates for choices to matter I would not expect the free will reset buttons present in many other games. However it is not unreasonable to have at some point a way to reallocate training. This could be implemented in many ways. While training normally, you can also flag a skill to "untrain" which would increase normal training by some percentage. You could argue for a complete 1:1 ratio or whatever percentage is deemed appropriate. Obviously you would not want instant respecs or you end up with a game that is purely flavor of the month, so respecs should either take time or have a diminishing return.

Todd described his idea for respect as being able to untrain a skill, and then re-assign the time spent to somewhere else in the same tree.

I would expect that to be in the form of tomes, so that the diminishing returns applied to them, would also apply to the respec.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Todd described his idea for respect as being able to untrain a skill, and then re-assign the time spent to somewhere else in the same tree.

I would expect that to be in the form of tomes, so that the diminishing returns applied to them, would also apply to the respec.

I would agree, that as a respec mechanic under those conditions then skill tomes would be ok, if that was the only capacity for which they could be used. However as explained in the video they can be used for much more than that. JTC said he is open to maybe doing a respec mechanic,but that is not what OP is discussing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jtoddcoleman said:

Lastly, please remember that the reason we revisited this system at all is because of the feedback you guys gave us on the last iteration.  We don't make these decisions in a vacuum.  I want to find the solution that works best for you, for us, and for the players who join our community in the future. To suggest that we "don't listen" is simply not true.

Todd

 

Amen. We did complain...very vocally...about how a system which forced Non-VIP players to log in every 3 hours to keep their skills training was onerous. You responded with an excellent solution to this problem...a TimeBank. The TimeBank allows the storing of that "wasted" spill over time for 24hrs for non-VIP and up to 30days for VIP. I think thats an EXCELLENT solution. I don't think anyone is complaining about that the TimeBank itself or how it solves the major problem with the Skill Redesign.

Some have problems with the new 1/1/1 vs 2/2/2 system as it allows the VIP Account to be able to train both harvesting and combat or harvesting and crafting at the same time (or Armor and Weapons if double dipping is allowed). You could have split off Combat from Exploration/Crafting and made it 1/1/1/1 vs 1/1/2/2...which would have solved the double dipping issue...and would have also prevented any disparity in power between the VIP Harvester (who has combat training) and the Non-VIP Harvester (who has no combat training) but that inequity is not game breaking IMHO. Games like this rise and fall on the PvP. If the VIP combat toon can double dip in both Armor and Weapons while the Non-VIP cannot...real power inequity is created. Fix that inequity...prevent the double dipping in a single Professional line...and I think you've got an excellent system. The fact that the dedicated VIP Crafter can also be an equally dedicated VIP Harvester or Combatant does not mean the sky is falling (regardless of Scree and Caenth's chicken little declarations). Each VIP account is made just a little more valuable and each standard alt account is made made just a little less valuable. A good thing IMHO.

Edited by Gradishar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jtoddcoleman said:

To be clear, I'm not necessarily opposed to adding something like this (or the similar suggestion from Tinnis, limit the number of Tomes that an account can use over time).

Also, it should be pointed out that while the Time Bank is a necessary feature for launch, the Tomes won't be added until some time post-launch.  If I had to guess, I would say at least 3-6 months.

Lastly, please remember that the reason we revisited this system at all is because of the feedback you guys gave us on the last iteration.  We don't make these decisions in a vacuum.  I want to find the solution that works best for you, for us, and for the players who join our community in the future. To suggest that we "don't listen" is simply not true.

Todd

3

I know you weren't referring to me when you mentioned that last part about listening to feedback. I actually credited you with listening in my OP. To the contrary, I think you listened too much! 

With that said, it's not the timing of when the Tome system launches, but if and when players can "get ahead" of the curve, so to speak. I don't think there is any way to address my concern about specialization; you already called out that you thought you guys went too far. That seems a personal decision in that regard, and not one made based on the whims of forumgoers (though they probably helped you in making that determination). Me trying to sit here and convince you and the community that I think this is a wrong decision to have made would take a wall of text no one wants to read.

I'll summarize it by stating that games that water down unique distinct roles (gatherer, crafter, combat expert, etc), end up not having recognizable roles anymore. It's one thing to sit there and consider yourself a "gatherer" because thats what you want to do today. It's another entirely if you can similarly have a realization you don't want to gather anymore, and just swap on the fly into a combat role. I loved the originally proposed vision because you couldn't arbitrarily decide to be something else today, you had to invest time and resources to be something unique in the Crowfall experience of other players. I don't see people being known as the "best blacksmith in the game" anymore. Not when billysue can be both that and the "best gatherer this world has ever seen". 

I understand the reasoning behind it, I just think it's going to fail at creating a lasting attachment to the game (an ingredient I feel is vital to an MMORPG community). Whats worse is that genre really needed a champion of creating more attachments tying players together, not less. This feels like less to me. You'll never convince me even a small deviation from the original vision will be as successful at creating those attachments. I just see too many examples out in the genre that disagree with you on this.

Edited by scree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

people would just swap to an alt to do something specialized before... 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, scree said:

Players now get multiple opportunities to course correct any mistakes they've made;

  1. VIP now lets players hedge their bets and chose two races/classes/professions. 
  2. Make a mistake? I'll just buy my way into the "correct" tree, by consuming tomes.

Very forgiving. Choices no longer have consequences, they have real dollar costs. 

Because it would make the players happier. The new mantra for Crowfall.

 

1

It's not a "mistake" if somebody decides down the road they want to try something different.

Not everyone resigns themselves to play only one type of niche character class.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Why does anyone, OP specifically, consider this a bad thing?  

If you screw up your account, do you really think it's a good idea for the game to consider that account broken forever, probably driving the player from the game and never putting more money in?

This isn't a college or career choice, it's supposed to be a fun game we do for entertainment.  

I agree with this, and I believe it is this notion which is the spirit of why the mechanics surrounding training are being revised as proposed.

But then, there are some who don't treat these things as games, it is almost a job and they derive much personal validation from it.

So yeah, those kinds of folks take offense to accommodations for filthy casuals. It's really not a new phenomenon, is it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

It's not a "mistake" if somebody decides down the road they want to try something different.

Not everyone resigns themselves to play only one type of niche character class.

But yet, up until yesterday you had basically signed on saying you were okay with it (you clearly didn't quit). A good number of people who backed this game also stayed on when they announced the changes with vessels (and the limiting of your choices). 

They complained they wanted more flexibility. They got it. Today

I fail to see how removing consequences from you picking a class, and specializing at it (at the exclusion of all others) could be seen as anything but a mistake if you don't know what playstyle you want to play Crowfall as and/or aren't 100% certain. Few people seem to acknowledge that a smarter approach in the old system was to have diversified your choices in case of nerf, play style preference change, etc. Instead of splitting their time training multiple approaches to avoid that "mistake" of pigeonholing yourself into a single role, the game now encourages it and allows you to buy your way out of it. 

The new system is already forgiving in the aspect of mistakenly picking something you didn't enjoy and feeling robbed, you no longer really pick a specialized role at the start like the old system sort of forced you to. You now pick generalized skills and get more focused as you move inwards. Combined with this, two choices for VIP and a respec option that lets correct any mistakes you might have made, this quickly begins to feel like a shotgun blast approach to giving diversity back to players when they need only have picked one to satisfy this community. It's a pendulum swing too far. Why didn't they simply try one of them? Announce the new skill system training, or Tomes, or just simply showcase the new tree which solves most of those problems inherently (you seemingly get two classes/races/etc for the price of one training at the end of a tree, and 4x or 8x at the earier steps). I fail to see a reason to remove one of the more interesting aspects of Crowfall's approach to design (making a game that's hard and doesn't give you convenience just for the sake of convenience) merely to please people who couldn't be bothered to research what they wanted to play before hand.

You needn't "derive personal validation" (what a backhanded comment that is) to understand the consequences of this game design choice. There remain plenty of PvP games out there that let you respec at will, with no consequences to making a mistake. This game was setting itself apart from the lumped crowd by trying something different (something we should all be clamoring for in a genre filled with clones and people NOT taking risks).

I think the larger problem is the small echo chamber that is the ACE Dev Partner sub forum. I'll leave that for another day. 

Edited by scree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, scree said:

But yet, up until yesterday you had basically signed on saying you were okay with it (you clearly didn't quit). A good number of people who backed this game also stayed on when they announced the changes with vessels (and the limiting of your choices). 

 

No idea what you are talking about, signed on with what? Limiting what choices? I barely give a poorly made socks about any of this. I'll be playing regardless of what changes happen or don't happen. Primarily, because I trust the industry game development veterans at ACE to make a custard good game without worrying about the bleating of armchair developers.

"You needn't "derive personal validation" (what a backhanded comment that is) to understand the consequences of this game design choice."

I understand the consequences of the game design choice, trust me. I just had to make my comment backhanded though because insulting people directly is against forum rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, as someone who intended to run VIP I'm very happy with the 2/2/2 vs 1/1/1. The time bank was an unexpected and well thought out system and I really cant see what the angst over tomes is based on. As a crafter tomes will become another option I can leverage from my training to gain resources or kick start a secondary craft instead of creating a secondary account.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, scree said:

I fail to see a reason to remove one of the more interesting aspects of Crowfall's approach to design (making a game that's hard and doesn't give you convenience just for the sake of convenience) merely to please people who couldn't be bothered to research what they wanted to play before hand.

You needn't "derive personal validation" (what a backhanded comment that is) to understand the consequences of this game design choice. There remain plenty of PvP games out there that let you respec at will, with no consequences to making a mistake. This game was setting itself apart from the lumped crowd by trying something different (something we should all be clamoring for in a genre filled with clones and people NOT taking risks).

I think the larger problem is the small echo chamber that is the ACE Dev Partner sub forum. I'll leave that for another day. 

A lot of people that jump into games don't do extensive research. I'm a firm believer you shouldn't need a spreadsheet and 10+ hours of advanced research before you start playing a game, much less, in order to HAVE fun in a game. I'd argue that respec fits perfectly fine in a game like this, a game where you're essentially assigned ONE character slot and are forced to make a near permanent choice when it comes to training (which takes can take months - years). This isn't a system where if you a mistake with one character you can simply re-roll and try again. I'll never understand the argument people try to make when it comes to "letting people make mistakes" when the consequences for making those mistakes mean you're custarded for a long period of time and aren't easy to fix; especially with a large and ever changing meta when it comes to class and ability balance. That's not good game design, no one sets out to gimp their character, and the games that let you do that give you the option of respec or offer alternative character slots.

Like wise the whole ONE SPECIALIZATION , ONE ROLE system was never really going to work from the start. Sure, having people that are practically slaves and go out and grind your rocks and trees for you sounds like a good idea, but then you realize there really isn't enough people that like doing that stuff, and the task itself is mind numbing boring. How about the baby sitters assigned to protecting those harvesters? I don't think anyone will argue that the combat is the most interesting (and fun) aspect of the game. Saying that harvesters can't really participate in the fun doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The new system is light years better and more flexible, regardless what the people want this game to be a second job say.

If the developers are listening more so to the ace dev partners, people who have spent thousands of dollars on the game, and most of them are saying "Hey, this sucks", there might be a cause for concern? I for a fact know it wasn't just dev partners talking about how rigid the skill line system was, that was the general consensus I encountered else where on the interwebz as well.

Edited by Helix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Tinnis said:

p.s. won't combat double dipping also increase the rate of 'damage inflation' between combat people and non combat people?

This^   the 2-2-2 allows double dipping in combat, crafting or gathering forcing a double time sprint to the end game skills in just 6 months then spreading out and hybridizing after combat effectiveness is reached (the gather alternative is gaining combat effective in the reverse).   I see VIP accounts being easily jack of many (several) trades in under a year...   those of us that have been on the slow track since last Oct are closing in on several end game skill nodes or have completed trees entirely and are hybridizing now.   While it doesn't create that much imbalance between launch players total skill it simply accelerates the combat values reached and completion of end game skills that will make it much harder for later entering players to catch up.  

I am rolling with it for now but feel I am not going to be something specialized for very long in game, maybe less than 6 months and after that all player main accounts will be pretty much PvP combat centric with gathering side skills.  Why specialize when your specialty is lost to the masses pretty fast.   Lots to see and absorb too...  

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...