srathor

I do not like how gathering in Crowfall makes me feel

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I think remove hold F is a requirement, just so you can socialize.  Maybe leave it the same otherwise, just you can type or whatever while you're mining.  Increase the maximum damage to 25 so great picks can wreck nodes.  If necessary increase either the base +skill on toolstones or the +skill from skill nodes so that a solid blue-quality pick can bring you down to like 8 swings per rank 7 node.  Really let us blow them away.

Then, imo, go all-in on gathering disciplines.  Let's get pick/hammer/axe weapon disciplines that add harvesting abilities that let you stay in combat and in motion if you want, toggling on a free-motion harvest but putting you into combat.  Let's get major disciplines that change destruction levels to 80/60/40/20 instead of 75/50/25, or a major that gives you a bar action that lets you upgrade a small node to a higher rank.  Let's get a major that gives us a soul power ability that gains soul when you harvest & is an AOE insta-miner, doobers flying everywhere.  Let's see some really crazy poorly made socks.

Edited by canvox

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After taking a week off of Crowfall and the issues brought up in this thread, I have come to a surprising conclusion.

Having fun while playing games is nice. I missed it. 

Hmm, maybe that is not all that surprising. 

I sure hope that the gathering revamp is fun and polished and balanced. (Starts laughing)
Time will tell. 

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50 minutes ago, srathor said:

After taking a week off of Crowfall and the issues brought up in this thread, I have come to a surprising conclusion.

Having fun while playing games is nice. I missed it. 

Hmm, maybe that is not all that surprising. 

I sure hope that the gathering revamp is fun and polished and balanced. (Starts laughing)
Time will tell. 

I've clocked over 50hrs in PUBG in the last few weeks while I wait for CF to become more interesting.

I am sure some of it is knowing how volatile anything I happen to earn/train will be given the "Nuke it from orbit" that is coming. Losing everything hurts the achiever in me.  

What's wierd, is I don't miss the lack of any achiever content in PUBG because the killing is just so enthralling.

ACE better be taking notes, because the entertainment bar is WAY higher than it was when some of the systems everyone is pining for were first seen in the field. (I'm looking at you passive/long term training).

I don't see anyone expecting a revival of pac man fever any time soon.  I just hope we are all not hanging onto a past that will never return.  

Sigh.

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I've clocked over 50hrs in PUBG in the last few weeks while I wait for CF to become more interesting.

I am sure some of it is knowing how volatile anything I happen to earn/train will be given the "Nuke it from orbit" that is coming. Losing everything hurts the achiever in me.  

What's wierd, is I don't miss the lack of any achiever content in PUBG because the killing is just so enthralling.

ACE better be taking notes, because the entertainment bar is WAY higher than it was when some of the systems everyone is pining for were first seen in the field. (I'm looking at you passive/long term training).

I don't see anyone expecting a revival of pac man fever any time soon.  I just hope we are all not hanging onto a past that will never return.  

Sigh.

Are you still using Bartles in all your examples?

You need to get with the times and learn about "the conjoined triangles of success".

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5 hours ago, Tark said:

Are you still using Bartles in all your examples?

You need to get with the times and learn about "the conjoined triangles of success".

Lol.  As soon as you point me to something to disprove it other than just mumbling that its old or outdated, I'll stop using it.

 

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17 hours ago, srathor said:

After taking a week off of Crowfall and the issues brought up in this thread, I have come to a surprising conclusion.

Having fun while playing games is nice. I missed it. 

Hmm, maybe that is not all that surprising. 

I sure hope that the gathering revamp is fun and polished and balanced. (Starts laughing)
Time will tell. 

The game is in Pre-Alpha and as many people in the forums have said it's not supposed to be fun yet so take a break wait until they look at crafting again if being a crafter is what you want to do. I do hope ACE adds active gathering things from games that have implemented it well or just make it full on passive like Eve. But who knows they could just gut the system and make crafting like Skyrim or Deliverance. But it's not worth being unhappy over so let people who want to stress over it do that.

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On 9/30/2017 at 8:12 AM, Holyvigil said:

The game is in Pre-Alpha and as many people in the forums have said it's not supposed to be fun yet so take a break wait until they look at crafting again if being a crafter is what you want to do.

The game IS in pre-alpha, but the problem thus far has been the attitude of ACE towards the conceptual design of harvesting and crafting. Despite the "find the fun" slogan they've been rolling with (which has worked pretty well with combat and ability designs and progression), they were super cool with a "you can just stand around and waitingly harvest and craft, since the logistics and optimization are the only thing that are important there, aside from socializing with peeps whilst harvesting for 17 hours a day" approach, even though it's not fun. Optimization can be fun, but it's not very fun to very many people by itself. Socializing with peeps can be fun, but you can already do that in anything else in the game, so pretending it's somehow a COMPONENT of harvesting is silly.

So, they've wised up a bit, it would seem, but just imagine what a "let's figure out how to make this enjoyable for dedicated harvesters/crafters" attitude could have done from the get-go. I think we're all (all of us who actually WANT to craft/harvest, that is, and not all of us who simply want resources and see any amount of time or effort spent on the process of obtaining them to be pointless, which honestly kind of renders their opinions moot in this context) just hoping they continue on by applying the "find the fun" policy to the harvesting and crafting systems.

It is in pre-alpha, so we'll have to see. Just know that people are mostly disgruntled with the design of the systems so far, and not the completeness of implementation. With Combat, they COULD have just thrown some incomplete systems at us and crunched the numbers we generated from testing. Instead, they designed the Hunger Dome. The thinking was "We want you to actually have a cohesive chunk of gameplay to play so that you can enjoy what you're doing a goodly bit whilst we gather testing data." But with crafting and harvesting, it's somehow less important (in a game whose foundation is essentially decaying equipment and the implementation of crafted goods in large-scale warfare) and we should simply use the spreadsheets that have been put into the game and be happy that there are different outcomes for our button clicks and hours of effort not actually DOING anything. It would be the equivalent of just damage numbers and stats and builds being in for Combat, but no actual combat. You just put your build up against the enemy's, then read the results. Then tweak, and repeat. That should be super fun. That's the heart and soul of combat, right? Not actually COMBATTING your opponent. The optimization is just sprinkles on the cupcake. It's great and all, but it's not the base of the cake mix.

I'm still really curious to find out what the relationship will be between mass production and individual crafting. I realize mass production has a place in the game economy, as you would not necessarily want to individually craft 100 people's weapons and armor. However, if you don't lose something valuable when switching over to mass production, then there's almost no point in having to manually optimize things, as it just becomes another obstacle in the end-game goal of mass-producing everything. Might as well just have a "Mass Production" skill at that point, and let the passive training and skill values determine everything. And I mean that literally. At a certain point, if the design isn't for human interaction and active brain usage to determine outcomes for something that's such a core component of the overall throne warfare of the game (item economy, that is).

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3 hours ago, Lephys said:

.. But with crafting and harvesting, it's somehow less important (in a game whose foundation is essentially decaying equipment and the implementation of crafted goods in large-scale warfare) and we should simply use the spreadsheets that have been put into the game and be happy that there are different outcomes for our button clicks and hours of effort not actually DOING anything. It

I think here we see a problem with trying to shoe horn a system inspired by a game that has been compared to playing a spreadsheet (EvE), into an action combat title. 

Quote

One of EVE Online’s most powerful alliances dealt a heavy blow to an opposing group yesterday, luring their opponents into a very costly trap that destroyed nearly $17,000 worth of virtual ships. Five Titan Class ships, the largest and most expensive ships in the game, were destroyed in just a few minutes, with the attacking crew taking minimal losses.

The economy of EvE NEEDS for there to be effort/time in pulling resources from the system due to the games very nature of having ships with a very high top end power curve, and a very high value. High end ships and gear require huge volumes of materials, whereas with CF, all the volume problems should be related to buildings and structure, and personal gear should fall into the easy to acquire, easy to lose category.

It's almost like they think that a sword that has +20 damage should be as difficult to acquire as a Titan class ship worth thousands of dollars.

CF is not that game, and some of the scarcity model for harvesting is leaning towards the thinking that to get anything you should have to spend hours to do so.

Let's hope the 50% reduction in time claimed with the new active harvesting is a step in the right direction.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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^ I agree. Additionally, they seem to have latched onto that very specific idea of "Ohhhh, man, it's gonna be SO worth it after you spend 37 millenia optimizing JUST the right combination of factors in crafting Item X, then spend the rest of your life mass producing it."

Except... apparently the equipment is, by design, not game-changing. basically, as long as one big group of 50 people has at least decent equipment, they can feasibly take on an opposing group of 50 with better equipment. So, the gear is actually LESS important, other than that someone keep making SOMEthing for people to wear, yet the system's design's emphasis on oodles of time and effort collecting resources and pouring them into the optimization game is somehow INcreased? That's just a weird design on paper, much less in-game.

There are so many conditional things that are simply true: IF you want something to take a ton of time and effort, it needs to be worthwhile. IF you want equipment quality to be of generally less importance, then there should be less emphasis placed on the intricacies of the crafting system in producing marginally-better equipment.

Honestly, I just think the baseline priority should be "make everything enjoyable," then go from there. For example... combat's looking like it's pretty fun, considering it's being enjoyed even when hardly any other systems were in the game (Hunger Dome, etc.), as just a standalone chunk of gameplay. Make Harvesting something enjoyable to do, regardless of how it fits into a giant throne war, THEN has it out to specifically fit into a giant throne war (optimization and all that jazz). It's kind of shooting yourself in the foot to get a bunch of Fantasy-Football-level spreadsheet gaming ironed out FIRST, then try to maybe make something fun be a part of it if there's time. You can ALWAYS expand the number of different resources, and the complexity of alloys, etc. What you cannot ALWAYS do is actually produce a mechanic that is engaging and makes a process that you already know is going to be repeated a billion times, enjoyable.

I've never quite understood that... how so often the argument comes up that since harvesting and crafting are so repeated, no effort should be "wasted" on making them not-tedious. When, logically, the more times you're going to have to do something, the greater the impact that even a tiny sprinkle of dynamicism/enjoyment is going to have. You're going to attack a foe billions of times in the game. Wouldn't you love to have just the one, single attack ability? Yeah. I mean, it's gonna get tedious no matter what. You're just doing the same thing over and over. Oh wait, except you're not, because there's actual depth to the combat process.

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2 hours ago, Lephys said:

^ I agree. Additionally, they seem to have latched onto that very specific idea of "Ohhhh, man, it's gonna be SO worth it after you spend 37 millenia optimizing JUST the right combination of factors in crafting Item X, then spend the rest of your life mass producing it."

Except... apparently the equipment is, by design, not game-changing. basically, as long as one big group of 50 people has at least decent equipment, they can feasibly take on an opposing group of 50 with better equipment. So, the gear is actually LESS important, other than that someone keep making SOMEthing for people to wear, yet the system's design's emphasis on oodles of time and effort collecting resources and pouring them into the optimization game is somehow INcreased? That's just a weird design on paper, much less in-game.

There are so many conditional things that are simply true: IF you want something to take a ton of time and effort, it needs to be worthwhile. IF you want equipment quality to be of generally less importance, then there should be less emphasis placed on the intricacies of the crafting system in producing marginally-better equipment.

Honestly, I just think the baseline priority should be "make everything enjoyable," then go from there. For example... combat's looking like it's pretty fun, considering it's being enjoyed even when hardly any other systems were in the game (Hunger Dome, etc.), as just a standalone chunk of gameplay. Make Harvesting something enjoyable to do, regardless of how it fits into a giant throne war, THEN has it out to specifically fit into a giant throne war (optimization and all that jazz). It's kind of shooting yourself in the foot to get a bunch of Fantasy-Football-level spreadsheet gaming ironed out FIRST, then try to maybe make something fun be a part of it if there's time. You can ALWAYS expand the number of different resources, and the complexity of alloys, etc. What you cannot ALWAYS do is actually produce a mechanic that is engaging and makes a process that you already know is going to be repeated a billion times, enjoyable.

I've never quite understood that... how so often the argument comes up that since harvesting and crafting are so repeated, no effort should be "wasted" on making them not-tedious. When, logically, the more times you're going to have to do something, the greater the impact that even a tiny sprinkle of dynamicism/enjoyment is going to have. You're going to attack a foe billions of times in the game. Wouldn't you love to have just the one, single attack ability? Yeah. I mean, it's gonna get tedious no matter what. You're just doing the same thing over and over. Oh wait, except you're not, because there's actual depth to the combat process.

They actually have everything they need, they just have to stop being stingy with white materials, and err on the side of generosity rather than on frugality when it comes to low quality materials.

For example, if you removed the 100 damage cap and moved it to 250 (a full 25% of the node HP), shown in the live stream, and had 5 swings to hit each 25/50/75/100 to produce up to 5X the rolls on the plentiful but not critical harvest table, so a trained harvester with good tools could take a node down in 4 swings, and produce 5X the white material as someone who took 20+ swings, the skilled harvester players would provide volumes and volumes of white materials, while keeping the quality material quantities lower.

That tied with the bootstrap mechanic of mixing low quality materials to sometimes get high quality product, will motivate people to attempt hard mixes, sometimes get them, and sometimes get good rolls on the experiment phase, and then turn those into BP's.

For all of that to work, the base white materials need to be plentiful and easy to come by.  

That is really all that is missing, the ability for harvesters to go and get gobs of white materials easily, so the mass production of white equipment is possible, and white gear becomes the de facto norm, and people not interested in harvesting are easily supported by those that are.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Sure, but why not then just make white materials a "mass-produced" thing? If the only functional difference we're going to see is "You're higher-trained, so now it takes you less time and effort to harvest more materials" vs "your skills are lower so it's going to take you longer to get the same quantity of materials"? Why does the player need to directly "DO" the harvesting? Especially if you're going to do all that "one time" (per design), then make it into a blueprint and mass produce it? And what's the relationship between mass production and individual crafting, if not an MMO mount movement speed versus MMO walking?

This is why I've hated passive training as the only major build factor from the get-go, but that's a whole 'nother topic. It's roughly the same as an RPG whose combat has you merely take less damage/gain more HP and deal more damage with every level up, only you can't even actively level up. You just... kill stuff with fewer swings as you go. To what end? Either there's a reason to be doing the swinging, or there isn't. And, in this system, "to get better at the swinging" isn't even a thing, since you could just make a character, set your training path, then not log in for 3 months, then finally log in one day and be good at harvesting.

What they've got right now is a slot machine. It used to have an auto-pull lever, and now it has an active-pull lever (for harvesting). The crafting one is just an electronic slot machine with a bunch of buttons instead of a lever. If there's not a foundation of actual enjoyment in the process of interacting with the machine, then 99% of people are only ever going to be doing it because it's the only way to get the rewards. It's like if you put basic groceries and fuel behind a slot machine. People would use it, and complain about it the whole time because it's a horrible way to get what they need.

As we're always going to compare back to combat... you could tweak the ways in which to affect loot chances from defeating opponents in combat to kingdom come and STILL have a piddly combat system with one attack ability and basic health/damage math at play, and everyone would combat all day every day to get the loot they wanted, as there would be no alternative. Save for a different game...

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1 hour ago, Lephys said:

Sure, but why not then just make white materials a "mass-produced" thing? If the only functional difference we're going to see is "You're higher-trained, so now it takes you less time and effort to harvest more materials" vs "your skills are lower so it's going to take you longer to get the same quantity of materials"? Why does the player need to directly "DO" the harvesting? Especially if you're going to do all that "one time" (per design), then make it into a blueprint and mass produce it? And what's the relationship between mass production and individual crafting, if not an MMO mount movement speed versus MMO walking?

This is why I've hated passive training as the only major build factor from the get-go, but that's a whole 'nother topic. It's roughly the same as an RPG whose combat has you merely take less damage/gain more HP and deal more damage with every level up, only you can't even actively level up. You just... kill stuff with fewer swings as you go. To what end? Either there's a reason to be doing the swinging, or there isn't. And, in this system, "to get better at the swinging" isn't even a thing, since you could just make a character, set your training path, then not log in for 3 months, then finally log in one day and be good at harvesting.

What they've got right now is a slot machine. It used to have an auto-pull lever, and now it has an active-pull lever (for harvesting). The crafting one is just an electronic slot machine with a bunch of buttons instead of a lever. If there's not a foundation of actual enjoyment in the process of interacting with the machine, then 99% of people are only ever going to be doing it because it's the only way to get the rewards. It's like if you put basic groceries and fuel behind a slot machine. People would use it, and complain about it the whole time because it's a horrible way to get what they need.

As we're always going to compare back to combat... you could tweak the ways in which to affect loot chances from defeating opponents in combat to kingdom come and STILL have a piddly combat system with one attack ability and basic health/damage math at play, and everyone would combat all day every day to get the loot they wanted, as there would be no alternative. Save for a different game...

Having a hard time following the reasoning in your first paragraph to be honest. If your not fond of doing harvesting, don't do it.

The role of harvester is to go out with a group of harvester/combat players, and fight to acquire resources from a hostile environment, made hostile by the activity of enemies.

The point to training, or what I hope is eventually the point of training, for harvesting volume and quality, (quality which comes from critical hit/amount stats), is to give you a tactical advantage of being in and out quickly, and getting more resources from less time/risk in the field, and keep mobile while harvesting so that your enemies have a harder time of cat/mouse.

We were never intended to be harvester/crafter.  If you wonder why it's hard to craft with materials you gather yourself, why it's hard to do everything yourself, it's because it's supposed to be. 

MMO's have the trope of level progression baked in so deep, it's hard for people who have been waiting for the next great PvP, MMO to accept a model that was simply assigned points.  

I believe they did a good thing by taking away PvE activity grind to level up, but with the current production numbers of harvesters they replaced it with harvesting grind. Rather than make harvesting something you do naturally as part of looking for a fight/resources, it's something you do with the objective being to not be bothered for hours on end, rather than mad dashes and frantic, abrupt, and decisive battles with quick rewards.

It's the pace of the activity and rate of material acquisition in large part that is the problem, not necessarily the method of extraction.

You're not wrong about the slot machine analogy, they have used it from day one , and frequently, to describe the process.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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15 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Having a hard time following the reasoning in your first paragraph to be honest. If your not fond of doing harvesting, don't do it.

My reasoning is: If all your hard work and effort is to work towards automation, why not just start with automation, and have all your hard work and effort be training towards the optimization of the automation? As literally as I can possibly mean this, why does the player character have to be the one doing the harvesting/crafting? I'm sorry if it came across some other way, but I have every interest in harvesting and crafting, in-and-of-themselves. So, as long as they don't make it a begrudging task, I'll do it.

I understand that the role of harvesting is expeditions of danger. I get that. And that's fantastic that that's a thing. However, you still need solid gathering gameplay in place as a foundation. The sheer fact that it's dangerous and/or a team activity does not make it fun/engaging/interesting. Throwing a handful of seasoning on an uncooked meal doesn't make it any better. That doesn't mean the seasoning is bad. It just only does so much. Rather, the role of the danger is to make the gathering of resources more meaningful. Not to simply make it meaningful in the first place.

Quote

We were never intended to be harvester/crafter.  If you wonder why it's hard to craft with materials you gather yourself, why it's hard to do everything yourself, it's because it's supposed to be. 

I understand that. I'm commenting on both the harvesting role and the crafting role simultaneously. Basically all the non-combat roles. Scouting is in there, if it's at all going to be a thing. Anything that isn't combat, really. If the game's design allows for a dedicated role, then that role needs to be just as engaging as any other dedicated role. Heck, the fact that you're probably going to JUST be crafting or JUST be harvesting, as a main role, is even MORE reason to make sure each of those processes, individually, is engaging and meaningful. The game has to have a clear goal in this. Is it just "Oh, don't worry, you're just supposed to increase the number of doobers in your team's resource pool by X%, then increase your productivity by Y%", or is it like combat, in which the goal is for you to affect things on a real-time tactical level? Why not just leave combat as "okay, everyone's just a big aggregate mass of passive build stats"? You're not supposed to go out and fight everyone by yourself. You're supposed to rove in big groups and do strategic things. So why is combat so tuned to individual engagement? What you're actively getting to do is very interesting in combat, and depending on where you aim, what ability you use, etc., drastically different effects can be seen. Build optimization is simply a cherry on top of that.

On the last bits, I mostly agree. I only disagree on that it's ONLY the pacing of the activity/rate of resource acquisition that's the problem (although, in all fairness, you did say "necessarily"). I believe that the method of acquisition needs to be more fun. You should make something fun to do from the get-go. The way to keep it fun is to have all the cool team-effort danger conflict stuff. That doesn't make it fun, though.

A grind can be a grind because of two reasons:

1)The thing you're doing isn't enjoyable

2)The goal of the thing you're doing isn't enjoyable.

If everyone went around completely filling in white canvases in Microsoft Paint using the tiniest paintbrush tool imaginable in order to get resources, it wouldn't matter how group-oriented it was, or how great it was to get a bunch of resources for your faction, or what the pacing or rate of acquisition was. Obviously actively swinging a tool at stuff is a bit more fun than filling in Microsoft Paint canvases. And obviously NOW they are trying to go further with that, so we'll have to see what they do. However, to believe that only adjusting the rate of something will make it no longer unpleasant is folly.

Torture can be made to last a millisecond, and it's still torture. It's just less bad. You haven't even breached the realm of good yet.

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1 hour ago, Lephys said:

My reasoning is: If all your hard work and effort is to work towards automation, why not just start with automation, and have all your hard work and effort be training towards the optimization of the automation? As literally as I can possibly mean this, why does the player character have to be the one doing the harvesting/crafting? I'm sorry if it came across some other way, but I have every interest in harvesting and crafting, in-and-of-themselves. So, as long as they don't make it a begrudging task, I'll do it.

I understand that the role of harvesting is expeditions of danger. I get that. And that's fantastic that that's a thing. However, you still need solid gathering gameplay in place as a foundation. The sheer fact that it's dangerous and/or a team activity does not make it fun/engaging/interesting. Throwing a handful of seasoning on an uncooked meal doesn't make it any better. That doesn't mean the seasoning is bad. It just only does so much. Rather, the role of the danger is to make the gathering of resources more meaningful. Not to simply make it meaningful in the first place.

I understand that. I'm commenting on both the harvesting role and the crafting role simultaneously. Basically all the non-combat roles. Scouting is in there, if it's at all going to be a thing. Anything that isn't combat, really. If the game's design allows for a dedicated role, then that role needs to be just as engaging as any other dedicated role. Heck, the fact that you're probably going to JUST be crafting or JUST be harvesting, as a main role, is even MORE reason to make sure each of those processes, individually, is engaging and meaningful. The game has to have a clear goal in this. Is it just "Oh, don't worry, you're just supposed to increase the number of doobers in your team's resource pool by X%, then increase your productivity by Y%", or is it like combat, in which the goal is for you to affect things on a real-time tactical level? Why not just leave combat as "okay, everyone's just a big aggregate mass of passive build stats"? You're not supposed to go out and fight everyone by yourself. You're supposed to rove in big groups and do strategic things. So why is combat so tuned to individual engagement? What you're actively getting to do is very interesting in combat, and depending on where you aim, what ability you use, etc., drastically different effects can be seen. Build optimization is simply a cherry on top of that.

On the last bits, I mostly agree. I only disagree on that it's ONLY the pacing of the activity/rate of resource acquisition that's the problem (although, in all fairness, you did say "necessarily"). I believe that the method of acquisition needs to be more fun. You should make something fun to do from the get-go. The way to keep it fun is to have all the cool team-effort danger conflict stuff. That doesn't make it fun, though.

A grind can be a grind because of two reasons:

1)The thing you're doing isn't enjoyable

2)The goal of the thing you're doing isn't enjoyable.

If everyone went around completely filling in white canvases in Microsoft Paint using the tiniest paintbrush tool imaginable in order to get resources, it wouldn't matter how group-oriented it was, or how great it was to get a bunch of resources for your faction, or what the pacing or rate of acquisition was. Obviously actively swinging a tool at stuff is a bit more fun than filling in Microsoft Paint canvases. And obviously NOW they are trying to go further with that, so we'll have to see what they do. However, to believe that only adjusting the rate of something will make it no longer unpleasant is folly.

Torture can be made to last a millisecond, and it's still torture. It's just less bad. You haven't even breached the realm of good yet.

Now I understand. I would definitely make a distinction between crafting, production, and harvesting in the future if you want to be clear.

Crafting is the playing the combine/experiment slot game.

Harvesting is going into the field, taking risks, and finding resources.

Production is getting thralls, building crafting stations, and using BP's (either made by you or others), to mass produce items.

They are all very different things, and require different experiences.

Basically we have already seen a different harvesting approach, through the resource popping chests.  When those were in full swing, many players avoided harvesting all together, and just camped the chest locations, rather than swing tools to pick up mats. The problem partly is nobody was a "better" chest opener than the next guy. The loot was the loot.

What I want to see is a middle ground, where those that dedicate training to harvesting, because they like that playstyle, are rewarded with faster productivity, more materials, and better materials.

Right now, in my opinion, the risk/time/training/reward relationship is skewed badly by EvE productivity levels and time thinking, overly restrictive productivity numbers, the "temporary" buff pots, and the overly compensatory labor discipline.

This next update appears to be a step in the right direction. So after it releases we need to give it an honest try, and then point out the remaining failings.

 

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Apologies, as my brain's stream-of-consciousness often gets ahead of my text. I will definitely amp up my focus on distinguishing between these.

My biggest point, which kind of touches on all three of these (though Production the least, I suppose), is to emphasize the necessity of active, engaging interaction within these activities. The resource chests is a great example, for Harvesting. If you're just going to take that and make everyone actively gather the resources sheerly for the sake of saying "Yay, people are gathering now instead of resources just coming out of chests," then there's literally no reason not to have them just come out of chests. Basically, as long as you have a POI that draws opposing factions toward the same goal location, and there's some amount of time factor beyond instantaneous (there'd still be some conflict, I suppose, but FAR less chance of it), there's going to be resource-"gathering" conflict.

Simply put, if there's no reason, design-wise, for gathering to be an activity, then don't make gathering, itself, an activity. Just make "resource-acquisition" an activity. It's the same as the difference between finding all your equipment via loot drops, or getting some through a crafting system. In some games, for example, the crafting system is unjustifiable, as it's simply an obstacle within the loot-drop system. "Once I get loot drops A, B, and C, I have to bring up another interface and click a button to get loot X that I want." Even though, within that system, they could have just had loot X be acquirable within the loot drop system, and tuned things accordingly. If the only reason anyone's ever crafting things is to achieve loot X, and not because they enjoy the crafting system, then there's not much point in the crafting system existing. Everyone could've just done the enjoyable activity (combat) and acquired all the equipment via that means. Then maybe just customized stuff after that, quickly and instantly.

So, I see your swinging pendulum, and I too would like to see a middle ground. But I still don't just want to see a fully passive middle ground, in which you train crafting for 6 months, so now you ultimately get +25% chance at the dice gods giving you better crafted goods. I would love to see that training partially increasing raw numbers, sure, but also increasing the array of choices at your disposal in the active process of crafting a good. And the options between individual crafting and mass production should be a spectrum of quality (individual) versus quantity (production).

As you said, nobody was a better chest opener than anyone else. That problem is not solved by giving one person +60 to chest opening, and the other person +0 (for example... I'm not saying stick with the chest system), just as combat does not give one person +100 to killing skill, and another only +30, then call it a day. This has come up since the Kickstarter campaign even mentioned the existence of crafting and it's proposed design, but... if there's not a way for a player's actual skill (that doesn't necessarily mean twitch-based skill, but it still has to be active, interactive choices) to contribute to the outcome in any given instance of an activity, then the players are not being provided with an entire facet of meaningful differentiation. Looking back at combat, Player A and Player B with the exact same skills and builds can still vary in how well they use their skills. And, unlike in something like crafting experimentation, Player A can't just spend 10 hours optimizing his playstyle with static choices, then employing the same formula over and over again to achieve better success. Player B would eventually just figure out the same formula, even if he could, and do just as well as him.

As much as they want to do away with the cons of active skill training (that divide of "this guy plays 5 hours per night, so he's 7 times better than I am at Skill X"), the method of acquisition of character progression points in no way does away with that divide. So, if that divide is the only thing differentiating Player A's quality of produced goods from Player B's, then Player B can never hope to do as well as Player A. Basically, active effort has to count for something, or psychologically we, as humans, do not take very well to it.

I'm looking for a middle ground, as well, between active efforts in an ongoing, dynamic activity (be it crafting or harvesting, despite the fact that they will still have differences), and passive training choices / recipe experimentation figurings. All things in moderation. :)

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On 9/14/2017 at 7:51 AM, narsille said:

Harvesting isn't about having "fun".

If I want to be having fun, I'll play Total Warhammer or Bridge or Lemmings or some such.

Harvesting is about making a contribution to your guild.  It is about doing the work that is necessary so your team can excel.

hahahahhaha

Wow. Just wow. Basically, if you want to have fun then you are playing the wrong 'game'. 

This is the best post i have ever seen in my entire life. 

The entire point of a game is to have fun. The only time the point of a game is not to have fun is when its a competitive scene for actual rewards. Then at some monetized threshhold, its a job. 

 

You can have fun and contribute to your guild. If those things are mutually exclusive then you have literally,  designed a bad game. 

Edited by Vectious

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Not fun is having only one tier 5 Oak and two Yews on an entire server for harvesting...   having the tier 6-9 oaks in a group of five near the lumber mill and tier 1-5 spread in groves across a much bigger map creates a situation where even a solo run at oddball hours can be productive and fun with lots of cat and mouse particularly after tracking skills are implemented.   Are skirmishers going to hang around the lumber mill or patrol the other groves and can I stay one step ahead?   This applies to all material types and world size...   gathering gets easier or harder and it is fun in its way, the fun is still the danger in every way...  even more fun to set up an ambush with a few of your own skirmishers.   The real game has yet to begin.  Sure, a big shiney doober fountain is a small thrill, getting it safely banked should be another, but real thrill is doing it while being hunted.  I hope the big Tyranny with 5.3 is a tad more plentiful and has NO resource chests and only building material chests...  I am all onboard with the AND training now, you got it in a fashion but on condition we move towards the interdependence thing, lock out recipies, remove the training potions, lets get real...  I want to see what speed of gear progression happens without crutches after a full reset.   I want to see players stoked to have one of the few Blue weapons after a month in reds, whites and greens, and even then it is a crappy Blue compared to Blues made after 8 months with benches and high training.

Edited by Frykka

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Put some resource nodes in the eternal kingdoms for people who want to test and experiment with crafting where they can switch off pvp and take away this ability once the game goes live. This would be the best solution in my opinion.

I'm ok with the boring gather, I just can't stand the self righteous pvpers who say it's apart of the game when they just like ganking crafters. When we go live guild will be organized and protect their crafters. Until then, not enough people are logging in to protect the crafters.

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Danger and people protecting gatherers is not a part of gathering. It's a part of how combat and gathering relate to one another. The danger and conflict of resource acquisition is there regardless of whether or not anyone's standing around "actively" gathering the resources or not. Gathering, itself, needs to be fun. It doesn't have to be so fun that everyone in the universe decides to drop combat for gathering. But, if you approach it with the attitude that "it's just a boring thing to do no matter what... let's just let combat make it exciting," combat's never going to make it exciting. All that becomes is a convoluted loot system, and combatants protecting gatherers is only fun because they're actually getting to partake in enjoyable combat (with the protection of gatherers simply becoming a specific objective within "kill all enemies" combat), and because they know they'll acquire cool stuff once it's all over. It's negligibly different from simply protecting something for X minutes, then having the game say "Yay, you did it!" and stuffing rewards into your inventory.

If you already had a system in which that were the case -- in which EVERYONE was a combatant, and there was no gathering role for players, and you simply protected a big Extractor machine at a POI, then every so often it spat resources out at you -- then who in their right mind would say "Hey, you know what? Let's require about half of those combatants to instead stand around BEING that extractor. Then let's say it'll be fun because COMBAT and DANGER! 8D!"?

It's all about approach. If the approach isn't "let's make sure the gathering, itself, is fun, and the danger aspect is just sprinkles on that cake," then there's really no point in depriving those gatherers of combat (an actual fun, active activity) during resource acquisition.

Simply put, if getting the resources isn't a fun thing, then you might as well get them in the simplest way possible.

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Once you have everything ready, guards, 5-10 tools, a helper,  6-8 sets of 3 different potions (Bene harvest, Crit chance, and crit amount) 2 flasks (Since having 2 different potion times makes so damn much sense) Gear that you have been working on for months to give you just a little bit more oomph, training that you have been doing for many months and finally a helper who knows exactly how to help, who has his own set of 10-20 basic tools. You are finally ready. 

For an hour of gathering. Exposed and making noise. Basically not moving much, in an exposed well known and scouted location. 

The risk does not match the reward. And it is the basis of every piece of gear in the game, well except for the basic gear from the weapon racks. (Because pvp'ers do not want to gather, even to avoid being naked.)

The most needed aspect of the game is not wanted to be done by the basic players of the game. The most basic and required building block of the game should not be a custard chore. It should not be the most time intensive, fiddly bit having, must prepare for a hour and have a ton of lootable risk, chore.

Tool durability has to go up. Drastically. You should not have to carry around  multiple tools of the same type for a normal play session. Yes I know it is a bug, but it is a bug that has been around for a year. It is a bug that affects every aspect of a third of the gameplay in the game. When weapon and item durability was broken a few patches back and broke after a death or two that was fixed instantly. This has been going on a year. It flat out skews the risk vrs reward as bad as the arrows thing did for rangers. (Get killed and have all your spare arrows looted, forcing you to remake/regather, same thing for spare tools/potions)

Test Potions should be gone. Basic gathering disc should be gone. They are completely masking the MAJOR issues in the skill training trees. Yes I know there was a major revamp to the trees. I sure hope that the revamp fixed the issues that made the test potions a needed thing. 

If you have to keep the test potions for some reason make them all last an hour. Roll the potions together for ease of use. Stop making gameplay tedious for testing.

Imagine if test discs only lasted 12 minutes then you needed to make another.
Horrible, unfun chore.
I have been doing that for a year.
Hence I have gathered like maybe 60 minutes time in the last month.

Because it is a given that pvpers are not going to do that poorly made socks. (Also the wait is killing any interest in the game.)

We need to see what and how the skill tree revamp is going to change the game. This is the second swing, I sure hope you knocked it out the park, because third strike is a never a good thing. 

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