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srathor

I do not like how gathering in Crowfall makes me feel

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14 hours ago, Anhrez said:

ya it did .... a fun comment about how I wish could drop doobers (which is not even an in game option) turned into I am the worst type of P2W cheater, but hey Vernot is a bit of a trolly person by nature it seems and I should have just ignored the kid :)

But back on the topic:

I thought that even the simple sharing of the teams desire to re-look at crafting much mean that its has to be a topic of common discussion as there are so many features and changes on the horizon that if it was something that bubbled to the surface then must be getting some dev time? 

 

I certainly did not intend to derail the conversation, my references to P2W were pure hyperbole. The interesting bit of that conversation was you openly admitting you would break the rules to bypass in game mechanics

As to to the tedium and grindiness of gathering, I must agree with what others have said here. First that gathering materials to support the guild is going to be a chore and something that will be supported by more than just the harvesters. Secondly, solo harvesting should be considered perilous.

What I don't want to see in CW is the ubiquitous use of deleting resources if a player or group's harvesting activities are disrupted. While I understand that denial of resources is a viable strategy in many battles, so is plundering resources from your enemy. Personally I see the idea of dropping doobers to distract a would be attacker as a bit of a farce as I doubt you will have the ability to throw the doober 20+ meters from your body, if anything you create a nice little path of resources directly to yourself. Maybe put a 30-60 timer on deletion of resources and/or gear? 

As to the grindiness of gathering right now, I would agree we could use some quality of life improvements. One suggestion might be to significantly decrease the amount of decay that harvesting tools receive. Maybe do away with tool decay completely, they are ethereal after all, or simply put a hard cap timer on tool time (great show by the way), something like once summoned it can be used for X hours until breaking whether it is used once or Y times. One of the big unknowns is how much gathering will actually be required to sustain a guild of X players. The vast majority of testing we have seen so far has been supported by potions which mimic fully trained harvesters, which is something we will not see for a very long time. Without potions and high quality harvesting gear, the process is very much a 2 steps forward 1 step back approach, as you try to replace your harvesting tools, this is before factoring in the losses from combat which should be expected.

The dizzy down from being hit while harvesting does seem a bit harsh. I recall previous games where you would heal faster while sitting and if someone hit you while sitting you took x2 dmg. Maybe a move to some sort of X% dmg bonus to hitting a player who is harvesting is a better approach, since its a number that could easily be tweaked. Perhaps a skills that can be trained in harvesting that negates that X% bonus.

As for making harvesting a group activity, I would have suggested simply boosting all party members harvesting effectiveness to the level of a "designated harvester" or some percentage of that players effectiveness. This mechanic might even be useful for boosting harvesters/crafters effectiveness when grouped up for combat activities, and even potentially useful for crafting bulk low end items before thralls/factories come online.

 

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If you have played Fortnite they have a system where you have to have the cursor on the nodes as well. But with a skill training it puts a bullseye on the graphic on the node, hit the bullseye and you get double damage and it moves. That speeds things up considerably. Funny thing is, that it is also fun. It is also on the left mouse button and fast and easy to do. Each node takes 3-5 seconds. 

In black desert online you could get buffs and gear to the point where it took about 2 seconds to work the node. In Crowfall 10 hits is the minimum. But here you can have others help. The issue with others helping is that many many times they can screw up the gathering. Yes it is a matter of training the other players in how to assist, and I have done so, but the system itself is very clunky and not fun.
It is also very easy to ruin any trained gatherers yield with a couple of chuckleheads.

I have some of the best ore gathering gear in the game right now. Made by my hand and countless hours of UDL protecting me while gathering ore. I have made I think about 3-4 tries at each peice to get the stats I wanted. There is still some headroom there with amazing rolls on every single piece and I can still go purple in quality so there is some headroom there.
I am not at mastery yet in ore gathering because of the insane requirements in the gathering tree time wise. But I likely have more time in it than anyone else in the game bar Tark. I also do not think anyone in the game has spent as much pure time gathering ore as I have. Maybe Anhrez, but he is insane. 

If they added a skill node that would paint a crit box on the node for you to target, that would add to the crit chance like to the value that the test potions added. If they fixed the beneficial harvest amount learned by the skill tree to be more than .025 while the potion gives 50%. If they added more than 10% to an individual lines crit chance before the final node in the specialization tree. When the potion gives uhh. 35% I think (Guessing from memory) If they added another 4% crit amount into the skill trees to replace the 4 the potions give you. If they lowered the armor on mothernodes to say like 25 instead of whatever insane number it is now and increased it so final destruction rolls were on every 25% of the mothernode. If they added retention of the highest gathering stats per node instead of whoever does the most damage gets their stats used, for group gathering then there would be a vast improvement on the gathering in Crowfall.

It is a group activity that really does not get better with group play. We cannot gear to make it better with group play. Only 1 persons stats matter. While holding F is a chore on it's own it is also being locked into only looking at the node with no variation that is the issue. We can't type to friends, we can't look around and keep watch, and it is at least 10 hits (20 seconds it seems) where we have to stare at the node. Give us something to do for that chunk of time which if done well improves the yield. With group play, make the individual matter. Otherwise they are just being used to speed things up, but they can screw that up easy. 

And for gods sakes. Give us more durability on the picks. not carrying up the durability for 9+ months means you just do not care about it. Yes I understand you need an engineers time to fix it. But much like the arrows issue, we have to carry multiple tools for a game session so getting dry looted of them SUCKS. Same thing with the potions timers, that you raised to 12 minutes. Make them 30 minutes or adjust the skill tree so we do not need them at all. (Hint we drink the potions at the start of play. Don't make the skill potion equivalent in the final node after 5 years of training.)



 

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5 hours ago, narsille said:

For once, I am going to agree with Vikingnail.

Harvesting isn't about having "fun".

If I want to be having fun, I'll play Total Warhammer or Bridge or Lemmings or some such.

Harvesting is about making a contribution to your guild.  It is about doing the work that is necessary so your team can excel.

The fun comes latter when you and your guild mates are able to do things that other people can and you understand that you contributed to this.

For all intents and purposes, I think that the harvesting system is pretty close to complete.  Come game launch, people are going to be out there punching rocks and picking up doobers.  There might be some tweaking of individual parameters, but I suspect that the game loop is what it is.

When people going around bitching that "harvesting is too hard" or "crafting is too hard" what they are really saying is "I want something for nothing".  Here's the thing... Something that you can get for nothing in one of these games is pretty damn worthless.  It will get old almost immediately and you're going to be right back where you started.

So stop the damn whining and grow up.

This time around, you screwed up and Anthrage did well.  

Learn from your mistakes rather than throwing yourself a pity party.

This post is probably the single most short sighted, and ill thought out post I have ever seen on these forums to date.  That's really saying something.

We harvesters are not asking for "something for nothing", we are asking that the road to victory be FUN, not tedious. It's a freaking game, FUN is supposed to be the goal.  Notice I used the word "tedious", not "work" in this context.  Sometimes "work" can also be fun. The "effort" and time playing the game to get ahead is not the question, it's the enjoyment of the process of that effort is. If it took us a week to get enough material to make our first weapon, and that week was intensly fun and entertaining, nobody would complain.

How long would the PvP players participate if the PvP was tedious?  If all you had were stationary, rooted targets, and the "game" devolved into a strike timing and rock paper scissors type of play, like the console games of old. 

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Would I be just as justified in telling you to stop your "damn whining and grow up" because you thought it could/should be better?  

Every aspect of the game that is not focused on "how is this part fun", risk's losing people and players to other games that have more fun.

Almost everyone on the forums is here to make the game better, ALL OF IT! So stop belittling people as being whiners because we happen to want our entertainment to be entertaining.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I think off the top of my head some gathering improvements I can think of include;

  • Removing 'Dizzy Down'; no one jumping a gatherer needs this advantage
  • Removing "holding down" F to gather. Toggle should be completely possible, even if it locks your camera towards the node.
  • Minimum of 10 hits needed to destroy a node, regardless of skill/tool needs to quickly dissapear. This is silly. Well trained gatherers should do more damage, and be able to faster gather whatever it is they are excellent at gathering.
  • If you introduce a mini-game of some kind for gathering, the reward should be bonus materials for playing. If you decide to skip engaging the minigame, the number of materials generated should stay the same as it is right now. This rewards players for playing the minigame while not punishing those who can't be bothered to.
  • One of my ideas for creating more interesting "random" conflicts in Crowfall, was to conceal all gathering nodes from players (except monsters, you have to fight those for skins already). These nodes could be found by an explorer, mined by a gatherer, and protected by a combat player. An explorer would need to track down and "discover" a node (an active power that tracks and reveals a nearby node) before it could be mined. This would encourage roaming bands of players exploring the world, creating opportunities for PvP as these groups encountered one another. It stops simply camping a node and waiting for it to magically "appear" as it respawns. 
  • Gathering disciplines need to be a thing. Players who take them should have a significant advantage over those who don't when it comes to gathering. We knew they were originally planning on adding custom gathering-typed bags to the game. Perhaps increasing the size of stacks they can carry (from 16 ore per stack to 20 for example) might be one way to further incentivize this profession. Bags could have more room for ore/wood/etc, and the larger stack size would make them better at actually carrying the stuff they can generate (and since it could be taken from them, the risk vs reward balance is still in play).
  • The complete overhaul of Gathering stats. Having only 5 degrees of separation from an expert gatherer and a combat player is too few. Considering how many variables go into making a combat player good at what he/she does, why does the gatherer basically come down to a single stat (That you can attain 60% master of with no thought/slotting a discipline). This profession needs to be broken up into other stats, giving gatherers more things to differentiate themselves from one another. It feels too simple, basic, and generic when compared to all of the interesting stats that Combat players give. 
Edited by scree

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It's not just the fact that gathering is boring, it's the fact that gathering is the ONLY way to get your gear and progress your character. If you're not gathering, what the custard are you doing? A whole lot of nothing, because you need to gather to get mats to feed your crafter (or yourself) to make gear, to mac out your character, to be competitive and actually contribute in fights and sieges, etc. The lack of alternatives is what's really an issue, and the developers (misguided IMO) view of trying to make gathering an actually viable play style (when everyone knows it's work and boring) is definitely going to lose them customers. Once potions go away, gathering will be even more of a clustercustard.

Gathering is boring and nothing will really change that. Maybe when there is a thousand plus players on the server and you're constantly getting into fights i'll be a little more fun, but you'll end up fighting more and gathering less, which if gathering is your main objective is a major distraction. Plus that's not gathering, that's fighting. Want to gather? You're going to have to find an army of suckers to protect your ass so you can gather in peace, and even then you better count your blessings that an even BIGGER group doesn't come to steamroll you.

Anyone that says that gathering shouldn't be "fun" and should be work is wack af. Gathering shouldn't be be a barrier to fun; since when did people want games to be a second job?

Edited by izkimar

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3 hours ago, SkEyesOGrey said:

Do we really think that it would make such a large difference that it's worth them diverting time and memory resources to it?

Yea, I do. Looting drives activity and excitement, and a system that short-circuits the looting loop can have significant impact on how people play.

This was a big issue I had with Shadowbane. Everyone deleted the contents of their inventory if they thought they might lose a fight. It rendered the "bandit" playstyle useless. There was little point in trying to farm the farmers, and little point in defending them.

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45 minutes ago, izkimar said:

It's not just the fact that gathering is boring, it's the fact that gathering is the ONLY way to get your gear and progress your character. If you're not gathering, what the custard are you doing? A whole lot of nothing, because you need to gather to get mats to feed your crafter (or yourself) to make gear, to mac out your character, to be competitive and actually contribute in fights and sieges, etc. The lack to alternatives is what's really an issue, and the developers (misguided IMO) view of trying to make gathering an actually viable play style (when everyone knows it's work and boring) is definitely going to lose them customers. Once potions go away gathering will be even more of a clustercustard.

Gathering is boring and nothing will really change that. Maybe when there is a thousand plus players on the server and you're constantly getting into fights i'll be a little more fun, but you'll end up fighting more and gathering less, which if gathering is your main objective is a major distraction. Plus that's not gathering, that's fighting. Want to gather? You're going to have to find an army of suckers to protect your ass so you can gather in peace, and even then you better count your blessings that an even BIGGER group doesn't come to steamroll you.

Anyone that says that gathering shouldn't be "fun" and should be work is wack af. Gathering shouldn't be be a barrier to fun; since when did people want games to be a second job?

I'm actually becoming partly convinced that gathering should be something that is at least partly expected to happen throughout the fights, instead of something that stops as soon as a fight starts.

E.G.

If focused gathering was specific spells and not tools, and are tray powers that did not require a weapon to use but rather a rune, and nodes had the same type of damage as player objects, then while battles rage nodes could be popping and dropping doobers all over the battlefield.

How cool would it be if you included a bunch of trees in your AOE, and suddenly the forest exploded into wood doobers? To leave room for dedicated, non-combat triggered gathering, when nodes are destroyed with anything but the specific node spells, the quality is always white. So if you want quality, harvesting time is required, but the bulk of materials can come while fighting.

Gathering would/could be a strategic thing you could do, and would actually happen naturally and accidentally as AOE spells ran over nodes, all the while the fight raged around you. A frantic and desperate attempt to survive and opportunistically gather resources at the same time. Heck this could just be an addition, a different way to get resources out of nodes. 

Balance resource numbers, not on how long they take to pull from nodes, but on how often the nodes refresh themselves. That lever exists, so why is the gathering mechanic so heavily slanted towards sucking players game time?  

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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30 minutes ago, Jah said:

Yea, I do. Looting drives activity and excitement, and a system that short-circuits the looting loop can have significant impact on how people play.

This was a big issue I had with Shadowbane. Everyone deleted the contents of their inventory if they thought they might lose a fight. It rendered the "bandit" playstyle useless. There was little point in trying to farm the farmers, and little point in defending them.

Saw the same thing in Naval Action.  Pirates could not pirate, because everyone dumped cargo before they lost the fights.  

Total destruction of items should require the game to run a item cleanup script after things have been dropped, or a special object/chest that is designed in specific locations to eat excess items.  It's the same impact to the player who is dropping the item, they lose their stuff, but it has a huge impact on the quality of and reason for attacking caravans for example.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Saw the same thing in Naval Action.  Pirates could not pirate, because everyone dumbed cargo before they lost the fights.  

Total destruction of items should require the game to run a item cleanup script after things have been dropped, or a special object/chest that is designed in specific locations to eat excess items.  It's the same impact to the player who is dropping the item, they lose their stuff, but it has a huge impact on the quality of and reason for attacking caravans for example.

Perhaps the same code could be used as that which is in place for the Import timer?

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10 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

Perhaps the same code could be used as that which is in place for the Import timer?

Yea, the object gets a faded look to it in your inventory, and if untouched for 120 seconds disappears.  If you are killed before that ends, it reverts.

Something tells me though that with the death/corpse/grave code already in place, a dropped pack that contains everything would take less time to build. It would also offer a strategic option. You see a tough to catch prey who is close to death but could still get away drop a pack.  Do you take the 5 seconds to check the loot and maybe let him get away, or risk it being cleaned up before you get back, or that he just dropped a single doober of slag in the pack.

It would also have the side ability of performing "insecure" trades between players that are not in the same faction team.

I prefer mechanics that create interaction, so if the time to build is the same, I would prefer a pack drop. 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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14 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Saw the same thing in Naval Action.  Pirates could not pirate, because everyone dumbed cargo before they lost the fights.  

Total destruction of items should require the game to run a item cleanup script after things have been dropped, or a special object/chest that is designed in specific locations to eat excess items.  It's the same impact to the player who is dropping the item, they lose their stuff, but it has a huge impact on the quality of and reason for attacking caravans for example.

You could initiate a lock on deleting items if you have been engaged in combat for whatever time is deemed appropriate after you exit combat. Example would be you can't delete any items while in combat and for 60 seconds after combat ends.

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1 hour ago, Verot said:

You could initiate a lock on deleting items if you have been engaged in combat for whatever time is deemed appropriate after you exit combat. Example would be you can't delete any items while in combat and for 60 seconds after combat ends.

How is that "better" than a pack drop?  I don't like mechanics that feel unnecessarily gamey.  Locking drops or destruction based on state just feels that way to me.

EDIT: We have seriously derailed this thread.  Maybe we should start a new one the specific issue.

EDIT: Two.  To answer the below without continuing to drag this off topic.

I don't care if the harvester is going to drop the items, I care that they can't destroy them. I just see more utility in a dropped pack than other options. That they have that option as a harvester to potentially bait an attacker, is just a bonus, 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

How is that "better" than a pack drop?  I don't like mechanics that feel unnecessarily gamey.  Locking drops or destruction based on state just feels that way to me.

I'm not sure there are many scenarios where a harvester is going to pack drop a significant enough portion of their goods to warrant the attacker deviating/delaying a continued attack on the harvester. The only one I can think of is if the attacker feels that the chances of killing the harvester is low.

Ultimately what I'm looking for is a restriction on a player being able to completely disable a viable game play approach.

Edited by Verot

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I'd be okay with a lock while in-combat, but seeing as how the game lets you currently decide if you are in-combat or not, this would be a mistake.

Crowfall needs to start auto-determining the combat status of a player, not letting them press z to get out of it, before this inventory lock would be a viable solution. I think the inventory locking is a good idea, in that you cannot delete items while in combat. Pretty cheap move to delete poorly made socks for fear of dying imo. 

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8 minutes ago, scree said:

I'd be okay with a lock while in-combat, but seeing as how the game lets you currently decide if you are in-combat or not, this would be a mistake.

Crowfall needs to start auto-determining the combat status of a player, not letting them press z to get out of it, before this inventory lock would be a viable solution. I think the inventory locking is a good idea, in that you cannot delete items while in combat. Pretty cheap move to delete poorly made socks for fear of dying imo. 

Still too easy if you ask me.  Hit "Z", run away at top speed while deleting things. People will build macros for it, and still drop everything in half a second of realizing they are about to get taken out.

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Firefall had a cool system for gathering.  It obviously wouldn't directly translate to crowfall, but basically you had these thumpers that you call down and they would harvest the material over time while making lots of noise and attracting monsters.  You were tasked with defending the thumper until it was full of resources and then it would take off and fly back to base.  If it got destroyed you got nothing.  The higher quality thumper would net your more resources, but also would draw a lot more, and more dangerous enemies.  I think there were also some variance in how long it would take to become full.

It wasn't perfect, and sure it still felt tedious after a while, but it never was as boring as standing still and pressing a button on the keyboard while looking at a hunk of rock on the ground.  I think something like this could be implemented in crowfall and it would probably be pretty badass.  Hell I have absolutely zero interest in harvesting but even I might be tempted to partake in an activity like that.

I know ACE is trying, and listening, and I appreciate that.  Whatever we end up with, I just hope that the majority of players who are interested in gathering/crafitng enjoy it.

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On 9/13/2017 at 1:02 PM, mandalore said:

Show me on the doll where Anthrage touched you. 

 

Harvesting does seem like it is too tedious and hopefully they will speed the process and change decay on tools.  The not in combat harvesting seems like bad design choice that could easily be rectified.  Give harvesters and crafters value but understand, and I'm talking to @thomasblair, that the bulk of you players are bandits, soldiers, commanders and would be thieves. 

 

Allowing people to delete poorly made socks while dying has always been odd to me.  Shadowbane allowed it and it always seemed like a gripe move.  I get wanting to spit in the face of your foe but die with some honor. 

In battles do you just leave valuable resources for your enemies? In SB if you had merchant deeds and godly runes on your toon would you just leave everything for your enemy, helping them to gear the toons and enrich their cities? I think having the option to destroy items is a valuable part of the game. Their should be risk on both sides-the risk that the gatherer gets ganked, and that the ganker gets nothing off the body. 

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18 minutes ago, Doomshadow said:

In battles do you just leave valuable resources for your enemies? In SB if you had merchant deeds and godly runes on your toon would you just leave everything for your enemy, helping them to gear the toons and enrich their cities? I think having the option to destroy items is a valuable part of the game. Their should be risk on both sides-the risk that the gatherer gets ganked, and that the ganker gets nothing off the body. 

If you don't want the enemy to get your valuables you should protect them. Guard your harvesters. Caravan the resources home carefully. Instantly deleting loot is a terrible mechanic for a game that is supposed to include looting.

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I seem to be in the minority here:  Gathering (aside from the F key) is pretty fun.  

For stat's I would say I/we have about an 85%+ success ratio.   Both Solo and Duo (MOSTLY Duo) 

Just another mini game with it's own risk/reward

Yes - losing your stuff SUCKS, but getting away with it is pretty COOL -

Once I got a miner fully trained in the "basics" and added some decent Picks...... the RNG aspect and rewards become a lot more clearer/rewarding/fun

The "Soloing" part does not make the grade on a risk management outline - Although I will do it at times.  Still, 90% of the time I roll with my Son (Thorns) and we switch off being the sentry/harvester.  Also, not hard to to do a /who and know pretty much what the risks are.  Then when too high...... there are the Rank 9's that are easily solo-able. 

Early game stuff and community:  My Son and I try to play this mini game pretty fair.  We love this game and want people to love it as well.  We seldom kill some one at the POI's that would rather run.  But if they want to fight ...... thank you and we take their stuff.  Lessons learned and all that. This is especially true when I don't recognize a name and simply give the "new player" the chance.

@srathor - your a mixed bag in my book :)  2x at least we let you go simply because my son "likes" you!  From playing on your EK back in the day........  

From my perspective your a prime target:  Why?  

1.  Your not new and you are most likely carrying some tasty loot!

2.  And more importantly - you roll with Chaos/UDL who shows absolutely no mercy with Rolling any thing in their path :) (I have no issue with this, heck, I even like it - it is part of the GAME).  Just means that one of us was not paying close enough attention to /who or we were cocky and deserved it) The 5v2 rolls are the VAST MAJORITY of loot we lose. 

Note:  My Son just made me add ..... he does not "hate" gathering but would rather "Fight" more :)

Edit:  After reading past the OP:

Yes ACE please continue working on this:  Always good for "More Fun"!  Plenty of great suggestions here...... Dropping packs and explosives especially liked! 

Edited by Mayhem_
Additions to reading past the OP

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