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srathor

I do not like how gathering in Crowfall makes me feel

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On 9/13/2017 at 10:51 AM, srathor said:

Anthrage just ganked me on Live 5.2.7.

I have been ganked many many times before. 
This one feels special though. 

I was on my rat. Why? because the rat is the best at getting away. With the loot I have spent much time preparing to gather. With the loot I have spent much boring time actually gathering.
Please note the word boring. Gathering in Crowfall is a chore. It could be used as punishment. Add on top of that the chance that at any second you could be killed does not make the chore any better, it does not make the activity of holding F and exposing you in a pvp game any more fun. 

What is the first rule in any pvp game. Do not stand still. 

Bleh I don't feel like typing up all this poorly made socks. None of it matters. None of it will make a damn bit of difference. 

Gathering in Crowfall is not fun. When I do it, I feel like my time is being deliberately wasted. I feel weak, and exposed.
I feel like I am wasting the guards that I have to have around me time as well. 
I feel like I am fighting the game, and the other players are just the tools of the devs to punish people who dare to gather.

I do not like this feeling. 

meanwhile thousands of people a day enjoyed fighting over that 1 runite rock in level 50 wilderness of runescape for years and years standing still at complete risk :) thats the fun of it dude! maybe dont be a harvester all the time, take the loot you did get, make it into something, and go harvester hunting. thats the only way the game will stay fun. there will always be hunters looking for an ungeared unprepared harvester, maybe try setting up a trap with passives that stun gankers and show them the fruits of your labour with an actual fight. you can be the 1 ganking a ganker by surprise attack countering his surprise attack, he obviously thinks you are helpless, dont be. dont play the duelist to run away, play it to win the duel. they are completely overpowered right now if you play him properly. if he only knows how to attack people who run away and hit trees, put him in his place.

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nothing stops you from marking your target with stealth revealer, stunning him, double jumping out of combat and digging into the ground to find a place to equip your real gear and return the gank. obviously that is more advanced than a crafter wants to be but its open world pvp, you are making yourself an ez farm target going out naked. if you dont protect your loot, its not your loot.

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4 hours ago, CheezePoof said:

nothing stops you from marking your target with stealth revealer, stunning him, double jumping out of combat and digging into the ground to find a place to equip your real gear and return the gank. obviously that is more advanced than a crafter wants to be but its open world pvp, you are making yourself an ez farm target going out naked. if you dont protect your loot, its not your loot.

Except the risk of total loss of the "real gear" if you are unprepared and caught once or face a fight you lose.  Either you lose your mining gear, or you lose your fight gear, you can't protect both at the same time.

Sorry, but something that takes a part time job worth of time to farm out, is not something you want to risk on 30 seconds of inattention.

Risk/Reward is too far in the High risk/Low reward side of the equation for that.

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I've been having some fun with this, but, I think I'm going to just uninstall this until it's closer to release.

As it stands, the amount of resources needed to make tier 1 (non basic starter gear) is pretty severe. Even specced out with potions and gathering discs and crafter's gear, it's an unpleasant chore. People tend to think of Ultima Online as having a very good crafting system because the risk/reward was pretty fair. Eventually, however, they went from full loot to soulbound items. You still lost some durability, but, you could repair your Grandmaster items. A loss wouldn't set you back that far. At worst, you lost a point of durability on an item, and it would still last you many months or even years.

Had one friend that had a mace for nearly three years, crazy as that sounds.

Played Shadowbane too, and that game died for a lot of reasons (which I don't care to argue about). One of them was the roaming gank squads that pretty much destroyed the new player experience. Again, just one of many reasons why "Rome fell" so to speak. There was little to no player retention or growth after awhile. It was just the same bunch of guys swinging swords at each other until the servers went dark, much like Warhammer Online.

Having a niche game is great, but, you gotta be able to keep the lights on.

To that end, I think it's important development-wise to look at the action flow of the crafters/gatherers and ask, "Is this fun?" and "What is the normal action flow chart for this kind of player character?" Likely that's already been done, but it's nearly impossible to test things without all the systems in place.

So yeah, not trying to gripe, but, people above have made some pretty good points.

For a short term solution, you could vary the map so that all the resource spawns are not in the same place. Right now, most of the fighting is around the iron node, not the forts (which I'm gathering it's supposed to be given all the "such-and-such is attacking Bastion's Keep!" messages I get). The scenario is basically one giant watering hole in the Serengeti, and all the predators just hang around for easy pickings.

 It'll be way worse when there's some actual predator stealth, and when some of the higher skill players get their act together.

I like the adaptation of the Eve-like skill system. It's a good way to go. Now, it might not be a bad idea to look at their model for resource allocation. They spread it all out for a reason. Still plenty of fighting and ganking, but, a solo player could do fine in that environment. The losses didn't set you back too badly, yet it was still profitable for pirates and rival corps to target "independent contractors". It's a hard balance to find, but, if I may make a suggestion?

Losing resources is one thing, but, is it really necessary to have all the runic harvesting tools go poof as well? Talk about insult to injury. Hehe.

And yeah, of course, I'll probably roll with a big soulless guild for meat shields, I mean protection, later on, but, a lot of new players won't while they're trying to get a feel for the game.

Also, I remember how boring it was to guard newbie groups against gank squads. It felt like a job: endless boredom punctuated by moments of frenzied killing. Mostly terror because of Shadowbane's horrible clipping distance. Nothing like having 20 enemies just "pop" into existence.

But I digress. It's a good game, but, the harvesting aspect is pretty un-fun right now. Risk/reward needs to go in the other direction a little, methinks.

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On 12/15/2017 at 1:24 AM, Zyrkus said:

... roaming gank squads that pretty much destroyed the new player experience.   ...

...   you could vary the map so that all the resource spawns are not in the same place. Right now, most of the fighting is around the iron node, not the forts (which I'm gathering it's supposed to be given all the "such-and-such is attacking Bastion's Keep!" messages I get). The scenario is basically one giant watering hole in the Serengeti, and all the predators just hang around for easy pickings..   ...

...  But I digress. It's a good game, but, the harvesting aspect is pretty un-fun right now. Risk/reward needs to go in the other direction a little, methinks.

Crowfall had me so excited that I bought a gaming computer and went all in with the backer option.  Kind of concerned now though mostly for the reasons stated by @Zyrkus.

Both for predator and prey this system will not be fun.  If its too hard for prey to survive they go extinct and if there's no challenge for predators they get fat lazy bored and go play a challenging game somewhere else that's not just zerg attacks.

My favorite rune from Shadowbane was bounty hunter.  Throw that ability to detect when enemies are in the area (spook the prey) and allow solo harvesting to be an option.

The quickest way to kill any game is to make it only playable when all your friends can be on at the same time (just ask anyone who tries to maintain a D&D group ;)

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There has to be balance.  when you are unable to play the game when you have time, they way you want within reason, people will stop and find one they can.  It is a very delicate equation.  Huge guilds are not for everyone and a take more work usually than a real job.   I like where the game is going but I see a lot of solo players pass or try it and leave quickly.

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Regarding how gathering feels....

Just bought the game, spent only a few hours exploring/gathering/crafting, so my experience is very limited. 

What would you think about a starter set for the first character we make? Like basic tools, basic weapon and basic armor?

Spending my first 2 hours just to hit nodes to have some gear, so i do not run around naked is not what i call a smooth/enjoyable starting experience.

By the time this gear breaks i will know my way around, will have some skills trained and probably could harvest more than 2 logs from a tree.

Let the first few hours start my adventure and not my grind at the nodes! 

Ps: Might be not the right topic...

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Harvesting has gone through a major revision since this thread was started. Gathering will probably never be fun because of the repetitive nature of it, but it is definitely better now than it was. 

F to interact has been replaced by aiming at the node and actively swinging your tools via LMB. They added powers, along with disciplines and passives. The Spotting passive, which everyone gets for free, can be used to avoid dizzy down (which a lot of harvesters complained about). 

Ultimately though, harvesting will always be safer/more efficient as part of a group. If players don't want to be part of a big guild, or they want to harvest while their friends are offline, they are probably better off joining a faction based campaign so that they always have people they can group up with.

I'm sure the devs will consider any suggestion that improves the harvesting experience, except for suggestions that it be made significantly easier/faster. Harvesting, and fighting over resources, is a critical part of the game loop. If people really find it too boring, they can let others do the harvesting and instead fill a different role within their guild/faction. Regardless, people are going to have to work together to accomplish anything of significance. The days where we can be totally self sufficient are going to end.

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I think the biggest prob is that they are to focused on how the game will play when you reach the end of some skill tree. They seem very focused on that aspect and use it as an excuse to explain the gameplay early on. And yes once you get more skills, have those harvest potions and better tools, the harvesting becomes more bearable. I just feel it lacks something early on to get people hooked enough, those who won't know what it feels like to reach the end of the tree.

I know this is my opinion, but I feel people would get more into the game if they wouldn't lock non basics that far down the line. I feels like they should have shifted the crafting a tree lower, with a tier between slag and lvl 1 resources, which would give crafters more options early on. Or make beneficial harvesting a skill that scales more with resource nodes, so non basic lvl 1 nodes represent more. right now I can harvest lvl 1 nodes for hours without interruption, because nobody cares about them. But I feel I should mine a lot more poor quality ore then I do now given how many points I invested in it by now.


Dear ace, it was wrong of me to feel scammed, as time goes by, I realize that more and more. Thank you for letting me sell my account!

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All I really see in this topic is a viewpoint from a solo player aspect. Harvesting in crowfall isn't supposed to be safe, nor is it meant to be done solo. Nothing in Crowfall is meant to be done solo. Then theres the argument "killing a game by it only be playable with friends", well, thats why you don't join guild campaigns then. You join campaigns for factions for example in which you will be forced to work together.

Pretty much all arguments I see here are based on the idea that you should be able to play this game solo or be able to play it without ever talking to anyone.

As far as I have understood, this game is supposed to be played in groups and is based on teamwork. Even with people you might not know.

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I personally like harvesting trees, there are so many things to get from them. I like being exposed while gathering, it adds more value to what i receive in my harvesting sessions. I think it feels better than a 100 % safe gathering system. If i didn't risk my life, all what people would see are the quantities i bring. With risk added, you also show your skills (stealth use, choice in the zone to go gathering to, timing, grouping, etc). It will probably feel even more risky after launch, and i'm pretty excited about it.

I know i felt bad losing my loot when i started another pvp game some time ago, but i got used to it eventually and now i think it adds more value to the loot and i consider improving myself when i get caught.

Edited by gegezz

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It's been a bit since I've checked the forums and I was hoping that the crafting professions would have shaped up by now. 

It looks like the same imbalance still exists. 

If you love PvP and that's all you want from Crowfall then you're all set.

If you hopped on the Kickstarter and invested in the game cause you thought it was going to be a balanced experience that required both supply and demand - if you thought that Koster was going to bring some magic to the harvesting and crafting - you're outta luck.

Keep this in mind devs.  If there's no one that likes harvesting, folks won't do it after a while.  If there's no one that likes the RNG trashing their crafting process  over and over, folks won't do it after a while.

To make the player economy you want Crowfall to have, there has to be both supply and demand.  You've got demand handled with import restrictions, item decay, and player looting. Now you need to work on the supply side.  Get busy.


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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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36 minutes ago, oridi said:


To make the player economy you want Crowfall to have, there has to be both supply and demand.  You've got demand handled with import restrictions, item decay, and player looting. Now you need to work on the supply side.  Get busy.

LOL get busy.   Man im glad i dont do customer service.     Anyway that's not really how supply and demand works at all.   The demand must be higher then supply at least at the start unless there is a massive lack of nodes easy to fix by adding a few, even then it could be a design feature after all wars have been raged over resources since man first learned to make a pointy stick.   

Crafting time going up based on quality of what you craft is a good idea, the question becomes do you craft the best as soon possible and need to wait longer for yourself and friends to get geared up....or do you make a bunch of the med tier to equip yourself/others faster?    Choices, keep your heads low until you have the very best or get whats needed quickly and attack.

But you're not really talking about demand from an economics standpoint your talking about will it be fun to grind nodes, nope it wont be and is not.   I do believe gathering is really a boring grind, maybe it needs adjustment I would hate to spend a lot of my gaming time just hitting those nodes at least long term.   I do expect some extra time hitting nodes on new campaigns.

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But this is from the PoV of playing on your own right? The game is more group centric though. So in that perspective, you would ideally have some friends, or scouts around fending of players or keeping eyes on track.


Before I die, I shall stand upon your grave and smile.

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I wrote the original post almost 8 months ago to the day. 

I still remember exactly how I felt when I typed it up. Helpless.

Since then some things have been addressed.

The biggest issue, the dizzy down mechanic has been mitigated with a passive skill that is slotted. +10! to the good. 

The next in my mind hold F to gather has been softened slightly.
We now hold LMB (left mouse button) to gather. And have a small minigame with the weak point system. and a button to press for minor buff choices while harvesting. ( This was a crapton of work though, but it did not change much about the weakness of the gathering in Crowfall.) +2! to the good. 

The mindset of the gatherer as a victim/target is still prevalent and has not changed much. That is part of pvp though. The constraints on the skill system, disc system and gear system all add to that weakness as well. If you gather as a main choice you are going to be a high value target and if you gear and spec to help in the gatherer role you are going to be much much weaker in a fight. When populations get high again, you will be the first ones hunted for. Better bring friends to protect you.
-10! to the good. 

Sound effects have changed and you no longer clearly attract every killer in a 100 mile radius with every action. +3! to the good.

I still think the action harvesting buffs should spread to effect the group. 
I still think players needs to have around +10 to crit from the start so that they are not so rare at the start of the game with untrained players. (This will help with fun and make yields better)
I still think that the weak point minigame should grant a +1 crit and  +.5 crit amount for each weak point hit on a node. (Make it more impactful to the yield, making the node die faster is okay but yield is still very very slight per node until deep endgame training and gear.)

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I will say that gathering is as good as it has ever been.  I love the stress of wondering whether or not I will get ganked, that is what keeps harvesting interesting.  Yes it is disappointing to loose your gathered resources but who wants to play a game that you always succeed.  My solution to this issue has been to learn how to fight.  I am getting a bit better and in return I keep more of the resource I have harvested.  

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This thread is old but, I wanted to add my opinion anyways. If gathering is a chore, don't do it. You don't have to be a gatherer or a crafter or anything you don't want to be. There are a lot of games where people hate activities like fishing or gardening because they take a long time and they don't provide you with anything spectacular but, to some people that is the appeal. Some people may never leave the safety of their kingdom and spend all day chopping grey wood. Find a person who enjoys doing the things you don't like to do and make friends with them. 

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Im not a big fan of the ganking system err I mean harvesting system. As already stated your set up and geared for harvesting your not geared out for a fight. When I go out to harvest i go in the nude with one pick or axe or whatever and only go for one type of resource like copper or ash for example then i only  have 1 - 3 stacks to destroy before i die and they get nothing i die and my armor and weapons take no damage because i was not wearing any. Write down their name make sure you never deal with them in the future ban them from ever entering your EK so they will never have access to your goods and wears.

I will never gank a harvester as I do not want a bad name for myself why mess with the guy who you might be on the same team with on the next go around. He just might be a famous crafter one day that you really want to buy from because he makes the best stuff. And he just might tell all his other crafter buds how much of a coward you are for attacking a poor unarmed gatherer and they might black list you as well.

I don't want any part in creating bad blood with the guys who make the goodies. :)

Edited by Merrex

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