Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
srathor

I do not like how gathering in Crowfall makes me feel

Recommended Posts

On 6/17/2018 at 4:47 PM, Merrex said:

Im not a big fan of the ganking system err I mean harvesting system. As already stated your set up and geared for harvesting your not geared out for a fight. When I go out to harvest i go in the nude with one pick or axe or whatever and only go for one type of resource like copper or ash for example then i only  have 1 - 3 stacks to destroy before i die and they get nothing i die and my armor and weapons take no damage because i was not wearing any. Write down their name make sure you never deal with them in the future ban them from ever entering your EK so they will never have access to your goods and wears.

I will never gank a harvester as I do not want a bad name for myself why mess with the guy who you might be on the same team with on the next go around. He just might be a famous crafter one day that you really want to buy from because he makes the best stuff. And he just might tell all his other crafter buds how much of a coward you are for attacking a poor unarmed gatherer and they might black list you as well.

I don't want any part in creating bad blood with the guys who make the goodies. :)

The people ganking you do not need your goods.

The people ganking you make their own goods in their own private guild EKs with their own crafters.

Because they're not stupid.


PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who knows maybe Ganking harvesters will be a better way to get the materials that you need instead of having to go through the pains of making the tools and using points in skills.

Just use all your points for crafting lines and get all your materials from others who are doing all the work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Merrex said:

Who knows maybe Ganking harvesters will be a better way to get the materials that you need instead of having to go through the pains of making the tools and using points in skills.

Just use all your points for crafting lines and get all your materials from others who are doing all the work.

What is more likely that will happen, is that the less skilled players will quit or stop harvesting, there will be less supply of harvested materials creating demand and potentially higher purchase value, enterprising players who don't suck at the game will shift to doing harvesting as a way to make game money more efficiently, and then the demand will be supplied again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Case in point, I do both. When there are lots of targets I go roaming to gank. When the server or area I am in is quiet, I go out harvesting.

This false-dichotomy of harvesters vs gankers is just a mental crutch for one dimensional gamers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it costs skill points if you want to harvest the good stuff or make the good stuff you can be good at everything I imagine eventually after a long time.  But like I said why bother gathering it When You have to spend points into the harvest line and use higher quality tools to get the good stuff. It might be easier to just kill gatherers to get what you need instead that way you can allocate more points into crafting instead of harvesting.

But hey like you said you can do both. I think it will be a different game when it launches though most likely there will not be enough resources to go around and those nodes take a long time to re-spawn at least in the initial launch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Merrex said:

Well it costs skill points if you want to harvest the good stuff or make the good stuff you can be good at everything I imagine eventually after a long time.  But like I said why bother gathering it When You have to spend points into the harvest line and use higher quality tools to get the good stuff. It might be easier to just kill gatherers to get what you need instead that way you can allocate more points into crafting instead of harvesting.

But hey like you said you can do both. I think it will be a different game when it launches though most likely there will not be enough resources to go around and those nodes take a long time to re-spawn at least in the initial launch.

With VIP I have two skill lines, and I can't train combat in both. So my main account is as good at combat as it is at harvesting. No issues there.

Realistically, people ganking harvesters probably aren't doing it for their goods. I have seen some guys get some pretty hefty gank hauls but that was back in 5.5. Since the change to make spirit banking instant or whatever, smart players just bank the valuable stuff while they are being attacked if they don't think they can get away.

Reasons to gank harvesters right now is for giggles and to deny enemy factions resources.

When I need to make my gear it is mostly coming from resources I have gathered myself, and I essentially play completely solo at this point.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 11:08 PM, VIKINGNAIL said:

Some people don't find it fun to craft, they shouldn't craft, some don't find it fun to harvest, they shouldn't harvest.  Like I said before if people have mechanical complaints about the act of harvesting that is one thing.

Logically crowfall should not cater to solo harvesters, nor should it cater to people that scream unfun anytime they lose. 

Outside of making some sort of deep mini-game to the act of gathering a material harvesting is always going to be hitting rocks and waiting for the reward.

So it shouldn't cater to solo harvesters but the solo ganker is just fine? I'm having a hard time following the logic of a lot of people in this thread.

Yes, the gatherer went out solo and that's supposed to be a risk. Good for you. Who else did? The ganker. Which of them went into the situation with 0 risk? The ganker. Who would've had fun regardless of outcome? The ganker.

To me it seems obvious there's a serious discrepancy here. Either playing solo is a risk or it isn't. Gathering solo shouldn't put at risk of losing hours of work in 20 seconds, which can then immediately be sBanked + recall by a ganker who brings nothing out in the world save for apples and maybe bandages. People may not realize it but no paper-doll loot massively favors the ganker. You can literally be jumped by a guy wearing THE best legendary gear is all slots on his character, and he will have 0 risk when going out to gank.

 

Either paper-doll drops too, bags have designated "safe" slots, or a roll determines which of the items you drop on death. If the balance between fun/chore and risk/reward keeps being so heavily in favor of combat, once there's a launch and actual population to regularly fight against, gatherers will be unable to gather (read: play) without a team unless significant risk of losing everything he brings (pots/tools) and gathers while a fully kitted legendary assassin can just waltz out and start searching for prey with no chance of losing anything.

 

So honestly I think this is going to be a problem down the line. When there's an actual population to this game there's going to be huge pressure to go combat and focus on ganking imo, it's simply both better and more fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Randybobandy said:

So it shouldn't cater to solo harvesters but the solo ganker is just fine? I'm having a hard time following the logic of a lot of people in this thread.

Yes, the gatherer went out solo and that's supposed to be a risk. Good for you. Who else did? The ganker. Which of them went into the situation with 0 risk? The ganker. Who would've had fun regardless of outcome? The ganker.

To me it seems obvious there's a serious discrepancy here. Either playing solo is a risk or it isn't. Gathering solo shouldn't put at risk of losing hours of work in 20 seconds, which can then immediately be sBanked + recall by a ganker who brings nothing out in the world save for apples and maybe bandages. People may not realize it but no paper-doll loot massively favors the ganker. You can literally be jumped by a guy wearing THE best legendary gear is all slots on his character, and he will have 0 risk when going out to gank.

 

Either paper-doll drops too, bags have designated "safe" slots, or a roll determines which of the items you drop on death. If the balance between fun/chore and risk/reward keeps being so heavily in favor of combat, once there's a launch and actual population to regularly fight against, gatherers will be unable to gather (read: play) without a team unless significant risk of losing everything he brings (pots/tools) and gathers while a fully kitted legendary assassin can just waltz out and start searching for prey with no chance of losing anything.

 

So honestly I think this is going to be a problem down the line. When there's an actual population to this game there's going to be huge pressure to go combat and focus on ganking imo, it's simply both better and more fun.

Yes, there is little to no risk for the ganker, most of the time. But if you are losing hours of work when you get ganked, that's your fault. If the ganker can spirit bank, so can you. You can also make use of the local banks.

I solo harvest a lot and yeah, I get killed some times, but they never get much because I make sure I bank often. If I'm harvesting outside a keep/fort, I'll harvest a set of nodes, then go back and bank it. Over and over. Sometimes I'm able to get back to the keep/fort before they kill me and not lose anything. Sometimes there are other people harvesting nearby and that provides some measure of protection from solo gankers, especially if it's a group that's harvesting. I use a stealth class so that once I'm done harvesting, I can hide if need be until I find the next node or I wait for respawn or whatever.

Yes, solo harvesting comes with risks, but if you do everything you can to mitigate those risks, it's not a big deal.

There may be some campaigns where equipped items drop, but if you think that's going to deter ganking, you're wrong. That will just make it worse for harvesters since a solo harvester has little chance against a well geared ganker unless the harvester is also well geared. Way more often than not, it will be the harvester's gear that drops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The way I look at it (from a harvester's perspective) this pretty much sums it up:

  • The solo ganker risks time and durability, hoping to come home with loot.
  • The solo harvester risks time and durability, hoping to come home with loot.

The harvester starts with pots, food and tools, but if he had a successful run, those weren't coming home anyway. As long the testing crafting discs are available to everyone, harvest pots are nearly free; water is the hardest part and you can buy it from a vendor. Tools don't cost much more, but good ones do take passive trained skills. Everything you need for pots and tools (other than the crafting table & water) can be farmed in the safety of your faction temple.

No one is putting their ship on the line and perma death isn't a thing (some future campaigns may offer hardcore mode). The ganker's gear is probably better than the farmer's so he's risking more from durability loss, but the farmer is putting tools & pots on the line. The biggest risk for both is their time. After a bit of scouting, the harvester knows where he'll be working and what he'll get from it (you do a survey run before you harvest, right?). A ganker needs to roam & may find nothing. The ganker may find an enemy war party that roflstomps him. When a ganker does find a potential target, he has no idea if that target has been out for an hour or 5 minutes. Both need to weigh when to go bank vs hanging a bit longer for the time efficiency; or both can simply spirit bank as they go.

Sometimes I loose my lunch. More often than not I get to a bank with harvested loot, so I don't think there's a problem.

Edited by VaMei

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The current spirit bank setup and the swift pack pig mechanics makes solo harvesting have next to no risk for losing mats. The current campaign offers even more protection with those r10 archers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Arkade said:

Yes, there is little to no risk for the ganker, most of the time. But if you are losing hours of work when you get ganked, that's your fault. If the ganker can spirit bank, so can you. You can also make use of the local banks.

I solo harvest a lot and yeah, I get killed some times, but they never get much because I make sure I bank often. If I'm harvesting outside a keep/fort, I'll harvest a set of nodes, then go back and bank it. Over and over. Sometimes I'm able to get back to the keep/fort before they kill me and not lose anything. Sometimes there are other people harvesting nearby and that provides some measure of protection from solo gankers, especially if it's a group that's harvesting. I use a stealth class so that once I'm done harvesting, I can hide if need be until I find the next node or I wait for respawn or whatever.

Yes, solo harvesting comes with risks, but if you do everything you can to mitigate those risks, it's not a big deal.

There may be some campaigns where equipped items drop, but if you think that's going to deter ganking, you're wrong. That will just make it worse for harvesters since a solo harvester has little chance against a well geared ganker unless the harvester is also well geared. Way more often than not, it will be the harvester's gear that drops.

First of all - yes the spirit bank setup is equal, you're right. The same goes for the stealth you mentioned though, it works as much in favor of the ganker as it does you.

My whole point is this attitude "Yes, solo harvesting comes with risks, but if you do everything you can to mitigate those risks, it's not a big deal."

What steps does a ganker need to take to mitigate the risks of going hunting? Literally nothing. You seem to be responding as if I'm complaining about the presence of risk for harvesters, which is wrong. I'm complaining about the disparity in risk between harvesters and gankers. The difference will be smaller at launch because the spirit bank, please god, won't be as convenient but it will still be present.

Quote

The harvester starts with pots, food and tools, but if he had a successful run, those weren't coming home anyway.

... Really? They hadn't come home because they would've been converted into materials. When I go harvesting I don't just stand there beating my pickaxe into a mountain for 4 hours then head back, I mine poorly made socks out and the value of the materials I get are greater than the materials I spent on the tools, hence I'm converting my time into ingame value. Same goes for the food, I gain more effecient harvesting and increase my gain per time while harvesting, this benefit is not present when I am killed and my food is stolen instead of being used.

Quote

The current spirit bank setup and the swift pack pig mechanics makes solo harvesting have next to no risk for losing mats. The current campaign offers even more protection with those r10 archers

That's nice I guess, but the current spirit bank, death shroud and recall setup means a ganker looting anything off a corpse is garanteed to get away with it. In the "real game" they should have to carry that precious stolen cargo all the way to a safe location but that's non-issue at the moment. Next to no risk > no risk.

 

In a game like this harvesters are prey and gankers are predators. Being a predator is inherently fun, being prey is not. Add to that the fact that playing a combat char is inherently more fun than staring at rocks holding a button and the system seems to rely entirely on a sense of either duty to guilds or simple greed to incentize people to gather, rather than trying to make harvesting life less guildslave-like. All I'm arguing in favor for is an active effort to ensure that there is actually a risk involved in ganking otherwise I don't believe it's possible to achieve a healthy balance between harvesters and gankers.

 

9 hours ago, VaMei said:

Both need to weigh when to go bank vs hanging a bit longer for the time efficiency; or both can simply spirit bank as they go.

That's entirely true. So that's not where the difference comes from - it's the frequency with which they loot. A harvester must spirit bank after every node, which is what, every 5 seconds not counting movement? Maybe a bit less if doing motherlodes. Meanwhile, as you mention, gankers roam between kills, but the potential gain per "node" for a ganker is essentially only limited by bag space and the maximum value of an item/stack, one kill can literally net a ganker weeks worth of materials. Yes this would be unusual and likely because the guy with the mats made a mistake, but that doesn't change that it's possible only for gankers to get that much ROI on their time spent. One is heavy RNG, one is slow but steady, which in my view makes it clear that it's way more likely to actually get any loot off of a harvester when ganked, simply because a harvester loots more often and is less likely to have sbanked since his last loot. So the weighing of when to go bank is practically non-issue for gankers because they loot so infrequently and will be spending significantly less imports/exports than a harvester who banks all mats to get the most of his time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it bothers you that much, don't harvest solo. Not everything in the game needs to be 100% fair for all play styles. This is meant to be a group game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 3/9/2019 at 4:31 PM, Arkade said:

If it bothers you that much, don't harvest solo. Not everything in the game needs to be 100% fair for all play styles. This is meant to be a group game.

I think you're right everything doesn't need to be 100% fair, but if the imbalance is too high it will impact the player participation. I doubt this will be an interesting game if the only motivation to gather is to serve your guild/group because most everyone will want to do combat simply because it's heaps more fun and less tedious, which is the issue I've laid out. My concern isn't that "It bothers me that much", it's that this game will end up with a significantly underrepresented gathering roles.

 

This is meant to be a group game, what's your point? The only way I can see that argument going is "get a bigger zerg than the others". How do you convince people to actually come with you to guard you and living the boring life of a gatherer for several hours with you, sitting around doing nothing but watch for enemies? Have you ever gotten anyone to do it who didn't directly want the product of what you were harvesting or been a guildie who did it out of duty? Why wouldn't they just go gank enemy gatherers, take a teeny durability risk but the chance to happen upon a dude with a ton of mats not banked?

Edited by Randybobandy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I for one intend on being a ganker simply because that's what current mechanics favor.  Even though I know laborers will get extremely frustrated and likely hate the game and not play anymore.  What concern is that to me?

You can't expect gamers to do anything other than what suits their own interests.  Minimize risk, maximize reward.

Let's be clear what risk is.  Risk = probability x consequence.

In any given encounter between a ganker an laborer, the probability of winning is heavily favored to the ganker, for reasons already discussed. (Gear, specs, element of surprise, etc.).

The consequence of losing also highly favors the ganker, because he doesn't need to bring anything of value to the encounter, while the laborer is holding all the loot.

So no question risk is higher for the laborer.

In terms of reward, being the predator is of course more fun than being prey.  Why spend hours staring at nodes and pressing buttons when I can be out killing hapless victims?

So no question reward is lower for the laborer.

In fact, I can't think of a single advantage the laborer has.

Minimize risk, maximize reward means ganking it is. Yo-ho-ho, a pirate's life for me.

We'll just milk it while it lasts until the player base dries up, then move on to the next game, and this game will meet the same fate as all the other forgotten games that couldn't figure out a way to incentivize anything other than ganking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, oneply said:

How many times has this post been necro’d? Dang lol

Well, it probably will continue to be necro'd until this glaring vulnerability of the game's long-term viability is addressed.

A lot of people put a lot of time and effort into the game, and it would be a shame to see it fall victim to this same risk/reward imbalance for predator/prey that has led so many other games to become abandoned.

Edited by Tiberius_Invictus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh memories. 

Most of the complaints that started this post way back when have been addressed over time. Or perhaps I have mellowed some too. 

Nah.  Not mellowed, beaten down more than anything. 

When I made the post I had gotten up early. and just wanted to hit rocks for a half hour or so. So I went to the only place on the map that had rank 5 nodes. I at the time had on gathering gear. Which was useless because the potions I drank every 12 minutes capped me, but at the time noone knew that. 

We did not have the details page. We could only measure by results. 

We had a camera zoom in at the time that when you held down F to gather it zoomed you in on the node. There were no weak points to track either. And the noise it made with the Dink dink dink. was so loud you could track gatherers by it. From 500 yards away easy. 

There was no class/Race split I think back then. Memory is fuzzy on that.  Hell I don't even think we had discs back then Certainly not the combat discs we have now + harvesting discs. 

We had 1x training speed not the 3 x we have now. And it was unrefined, still very raw. 

So much has changed. 

But I still think the risk of the wolves does not nearly match up to the risk of the gatherer/sheep.

I do know over 2 years later that when I am serious about going out to gather I do everything in my power to mitigate that risk. I do everything I can to make sure that if/when I am jumped I get the greatest chance to keep my hard earned loot. Because I know I have almost zero chance of actually defeating the wolves.

If it was a fair chance vrs a wolf then you are fighting a stupid wolf. 

But we need the draw of the solo gather vrs the solo wolves. We need the people out in the game world, doing things. All sorts of things, we need ambushes, and ganks and squad fights, and patrols. We need the wolves and the sheep to make the game dynamic and fun.  

That is the challenge for ACE. To give us the reasons to play and have fun doing so. 

And I still do not like even today how gathering in Crowfall makes me feel.  It is needed, it is necessary, but it is really not fun with the effort and training required to get the tools that break so fast,  through the choices of discs that are really very little choice involved.

For ore smalls with a maxed toon.  I use Miner and Lookout. With all bene harvest chance made gear. The nerfs to bene harvest duration and power and chance stripped out much of the  fun of trying other things at end game gathering.  

I wish it had more of an impact when I harvested. I wish it was more fun. I miss the days before when I had the freedom to make a few different sets of mismatched gear to tune down to the exact stuff needed to make a GREAT harvester.  I really miss the epic ore doober moneyshots of the early game with the +10 Crit amount potion when people could see what popped and would freak out.

If I could change harvesting here is what I would do.

Harvest on enemy controlled lands would be worth x2 points to the scoreboards. 
Harvest on contested lands would be worth x1.5 points.
Harvest on your guild/faction controlled lands would be worth 1x points.

More varied more powerful gear, coupled with training so that you can "build" on your skills like a combat spec. 
Bene harvest effects should last longer. When duration was bugged and capped at 3 minutes it was quite a bit more fun. Also that made skinning MUCH more palatable.

Action harvesting buffs would affect your group. Making different people do different roles would make that interesting. 
Loot would come from multi bucket stats of the different people in your group. Not the person with the most damage to the node. Making people in a gathering group all have useful trainings. 

Hitting weak points would have an effect on the node destruction table. Each one hit would add to crit chance and crit amount. Making that minigame really add some excitement back into the actions you do. (not subject to  player stat cap as well. Hit 5 weak points on a single node gets you a sploosh of doobers.)

Give me an ability to hide some of my loot. Stashes with a treasure map.  Locked chests buried in a hillside, advanced chest/storage/bag that only shows half the loot to be looted. (50% of that bags loot is shown when you are killed. Mats only.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/11/2019 at 3:16 PM, Tiberius_Invictus said:

Well, it probably will continue to be necro'd until this glaring vulnerability of the game's long-term viability is addressed.

A lot of people put a lot of time and effort into the game, and it would be a shame to see it fall victim to this same risk/reward imbalance for predator/prey that has led so many other games to become abandoned.

No risk for the ganker? No reward for the gatherer? 

No gatherers, no material, no crafting, no gear....no reward?

I think your projecting the extremely low population tendencies into a higher populated game. An organized guild isn’t going to leave their harvesters exposed, they’ll be groups floating around the area to hunt gankers and people hiding in stealth near their harvesters. Crafters will have protection. Supply runners/caravans will have protection. On top of that, running the right discs on a harvester levels the playing field quite a bit. 

The carebears are going to have to realize this game is meant to have teamwork. They’re going to have to work with others to accomplish goals. There are plenty of games coming out that penalize the ganker far more than the harvester. We don’t need them all to cater to the carebears attitude. I wonder how much compliants the removal of anytime spirit bank is going to generate. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah you would think that people would team up and be wonderfully coop.

Guilds will have players group up and help each other!! Because they have to. Once they get theirs, most stop showing up as often. Sure you have the diehard try hards who will show up all the time, but if they are on guard duty they will not be enjoying it. And the folks out harvesting who know they are wasting everyone's time will feel bad about it as well.  

So they go out solo instead. And maybe not get ganked. And go out again and get gutted and stripped because they are complacent and doing something unfun because they HAVE to do it.  And that is the crux of the matter. 

We have basic activities that are needed, that players are obligated to do so they game loops can spin and roll and putter through. But those basic activities are tuned and structured to be at the base minimum of enjoyment. 

Gathering solo is risky and frankly unrewarding. The max you can get after years worth of training is frustratingly small for the large number of hoops you have to jump through, and the chance of losing any of that time I frustratingly large if you are complacent for a half second. 

Gathering in a group can net you a ton of mostly useless mats. With a small reward in specialty stuff if you go to specific areas and have a years worth of training. You also have to make sure people are not doing their best due to the system that is in place for the rewards. So that if you are not the leader/trained dude any of the others training is worthless. 

The proof has been in the actions of the playerbase with every test. 

1-3 groups go out get what is needed for the initial push, occasional groups after the first 1-2 weeks get what is needed then fade for the rest of the time. Then the solo's who have been around and soloing the whole time start getting bored because if they want to do anything they have to dodge the solo and group wolves who are out trying desperately to find something to kill. 

If this was a fun game right now we would have population. Because it was fun. 

ACE is working their ass off. But are they making the game more fun? This thread was made because I didn't have fun gathering before I got ganked. The ganking was the straw, I should have quit playing 2 years ago, but I have my own issues, and parts of the game can still be fun with the people I play with. 

With all of the changes over the last 2 years in the specific subset of the game that gathering entails, it has gotten changes, and some of the true annoyances have been addressed and even mitigated a bit.  But they have not been fixed, they have not gone away, and the basic gathering system in both solo and group play is still not fun in the doing of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you don't like the risk of having your full inventory looted while harvesting then pick a campaign type with less hardcore looting rules. There will undoubtedly be campaigns available without 100% inventory loot.


IhhQKY6.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...