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Crowfall Q&A Live for September: Action Harvesting - Official Discussion


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7 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

Combat is getting the special rule that will disallow multiple trees from being trained in it simultaneously. Survival Tray is not just for harvesters, moving around the world at speed, using consumables on the fly, entering stealth is going to have everyone in the survival tray.

 

This sounds like double dipping in the Combat trees will be prevented...but not in the Exploration or Crafting trees. Is that correct?

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@thomasblair What do you think about making the "survival" tray just another tray instead of making it the "out of combat state". 

The benefit of this would be that harvesters and people doing damage to walls, trees of life and bane trees would not be subject to dizzy down.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose of dizzy down was originally to prevent people from easily escaping during the hunger dome root motion combat days. We've come along way since then. Today, it's main purpose would still be to prevent people from running away using the increased out of combat movement speed as well as preventing stealthers from being able to restealth too easily during a fight. 

Is it necessary for harvesters (who are literally doing DAMAGE to nodes) to get dizzy downed if caught while harvesting? I don't think the new siege mechanics will go over well if you'll be out of combat and subject to dizzy down while damaging walls, trees of life or bane trees.

 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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9 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

1. Powerbars are part of the class package and we are not seeking equal amounts for all classes.

Well...there are 2 that are a part of the class package (Druid and Ranger). The rest of the powerbars are provided by adding Disciplines. When you grant 4 additional classes multiple trays through a discipline (Myrmidon, Champion, Assassin and Knight) but don't allow the other 5 classes (Cleric, Confessor, Duelist, Templar or Frostweaver) you've created a system with haves and have-nots. I agree that there shouldn't be an "equal amount [of trays] for all classes." Obviously, stealth classes should get more trays. But having no route to an extra tray for 5 of 11 classes I believe to be a mistake. The difference between the relative strength of the Champion and Templar is not enormous. Giving the Champion ranged bow attacks and the ability to slot Major Discipline powers in that Ranged Tray without losing any of his default kit is a big boost to the Champion (and Myrmidon and Knight). Giving the Assassin access to a ranged tray...but not the Duelist...also seems counterintuitive. Equitable powerbar real estate is a huge issue which I think deserves serious consideration. 

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I would like to see the keybinds for trays simplified. So Z would take you into or out of combat, but then once in a combat tray, players could use ` or whatever their preferred single keybind to swap back and forth between combat trays. It's much easier to hit one key to swap constantly in combat and Z is something I've seen before as an in/out of combat toggle anyway. Most classes would only have two combat trays anyway so this would work fine. For those with 3 I suppose they could have the ability to add individual keybinds but don't make that universal. It's just that right now with other games that have weapon or tray swap, (GW2 and ESO come to mind) this is the way I'm used to doing it so it's much easier.

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1 hour ago, thomasblair said:

...

1. Powerbars are part of the class package and we are not seeking equal amounts for all classes.

...

 

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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@thomasblair

 

Could you explain how your right click powers locked to a weapon apply to the duelist?

If you equip master of pistols you get a pistol right click to replace your rapier right click. How does the game know which one I want to use?

Duelist gets access to ranged and melee powers on the same tray

I was very happy when VIP allowed us to train 2 Profession powers so i can fight and harvest well.

I hope the harvesting disciplines will be minors. i would hate to sacrifice a major discipline slot to harvest better...

www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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30 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

@thomasblair

I hope the harvesting disciplines will be minors. i would hate to sacrifice a major discipline slot to harvest better...

I would love that, provided it's worth it.  Making choices with your build (choices you can always change later if you don't like it, instead of after wasting months) is a good way to make meaningful choices without screwing anyone.

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3 hours ago, Gradishar said:

This sounds like double dipping in the Combat trees will be prevented...but not in the Exploration or Crafting trees. Is that correct?

Current implementation, yes.

 

3 hours ago, blazzen said:

@thomasblair What do you think about making the "survival" tray just another tray instead of making it the "out of combat state". 

The benefit of this would be that harvesters and people doing damage to walls, trees of life and bane trees would not be subject to dizzy down.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose of dizzy down was originally to prevent people from easily escaping during the hunger dome root motion combat days. We've come along way since then. Today, it's main purpose would still be to prevent people from running away using the increased out of combat movement speed as well as preventing stealthers from being able to restealth too easily during a fight. 

Is it necessary for harvesters (who are literally doing DAMAGE to nodes) to get dizzy downed if caught while harvesting? I don't think the new siege mechanics will go over well if you'll be out of combat and subject to dizzy down while damaging walls, trees of life or bane trees.

 

Making it the Survival Tray the out of combat state cleaned up so much confusion on what mode the player was in.

Dizzy has always been a large reason why people stay in combat mode in hostile areas as well as don't dance in and out of combat for higher regen ticks. I know it s not your favorite mechanic but it keeps people from abusing the benefits from being out of combat. No matter what the mechanic would be it would be unpopular and we need the 2 states not just for gameplay reasons but also for character animation purposes. (Just so you know)

Attacking a tree and being forced into the Survival Tray will bring a new wrinkle to attacking a tree of life, and will make the attacking team want to secure the area before attacking the tree. Also makes for a last ditch defense possibility. There seems to be some potential gameplay here, so we want to check it out.

 

1 hour ago, Leiloni said:

I would like to see the keybinds for trays simplified. So Z would take you into or out of combat, but then once in a combat tray, players could use ` or whatever their preferred single keybind to swap back and forth between combat trays. It's much easier to hit one key to swap constantly in combat and Z is something I've seen before as an in/out of combat toggle anyway. Most classes would only have two combat trays anyway so this would work fine. For those with 3 I suppose they could have the ability to add individual keybinds but don't make that universal. It's just that right now with other games that have weapon or tray swap, (GW2 and ESO come to mind) this is the way I'm used to doing it so it's much easier.

A toggle for specific trays sounds like an interesting option and since it should be an advanced player option we shouldn't have to worry about people getting confused.  Will chat with Akshay to see if we can make it work.

 

1 hour ago, PaleOne said:

@thomasblair

 

Could you explain how your right click powers locked to a weapon apply to the duelist?

If you equip master of pistols you get a pistol right click to replace your rapier right click. How does the game know which one I want to use?

Duelist gets access to ranged and melee powers on the same tray

I was very happy when VIP allowed us to train 2 Profession powers so i can fight and harvest well.

I hope the harvesting disciplines will be minors. i would hate to sacrifice a major discipline slot to harvest better...

The right click is for the dodge powers. Left click is for the loaded weapon and yes we do have a bit of implementation work to make it work seamless for the Duelist. (not entirely sure what we are going to do for them yet)

Thomas Blair
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1 hour ago, thomasblair said:

Current implementation, yes.

 

Making it the Survival Tray the out of combat state cleaned up so much confusion on what mode the player was in.

Dizzy has always been a large reason why people stay in combat mode in hostile areas as well as don't dance in and out of combat for higher regen ticks. I know it s not your favorite mechanic but it keeps people from abusing the benefits from being out of combat. No matter what the mechanic would be it would be unpopular and we need the 2 states not just for gameplay reasons but also for character animation purposes. (Just so you know)

Attacking a tree and being forced into the Survival Tray will bring a new wrinkle to attacking a tree of life, and will make the attacking team want to secure the area before attacking the tree. Also makes for a last ditch defense possibility. There seems to be some potential gameplay here, so we want to check it out.

 

A toggle for specific trays sounds like an interesting option and since it should be an advanced player option we shouldn't have to worry about people getting confused.  Will chat with Akshay to see if we can make it work.

 

The right click is for the dodge powers. Left click is for the loaded weapon and yes we do have a bit of implementation work to make it work seamless for the Duelist. (not entirely sure what we are going to do for them yet)

Well I'm sure you're right that anything would be unpopular, but there are very different degrees of "unpopular".  

The game and combat is still supposed to be playable and fun. More vulnerable and unable to use weapons to fight back is far different than utterly helpless in the face of any attack a ranged character manages to land. For example you could double damage, AND not allow tray switching from survival for X seconds after taking damage would at least provide the option to try to get away.   Falling over, and flopping around like a fish out of water, while enemies get a free ride with you over the barrel and can do nothing, is quite frankly too much, which I am pretty sure you will figure out after you have seen it in action during a siege. 

Go ahead and "check it out" as you say, but I'm 80% sure a backpedal is coming on this one though.

 

7 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Agreed.  All you really have to do to see why is ask one question.

Which is more fun, for both the hunted and hunter? To have the harvester partially hurt, and able and perhaps willing to fight back, or basically crippled and either instantly killed or forced to make a break for it.

I know what one I think is more fun. It's not even a question to me, bring on the fights. 

Why the deep need to see harvesters as basically honey ants, instead of making the wolves have to actually strategize to hunt successfully?

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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Adding a Survival tray seems like a good QoL upgrade. It is more intuitive as the out-of-combat stance, and I like the idea of being able to slot harvesting-related powers and/or escape abilities.

 

3 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Dizzy has always been a large reason why people stay in combat mode in hostile areas as well as don't dance in and out of combat for higher regen ticks. I know it s not your favorite mechanic but it keeps people from abusing the benefits from being out of combat.

Dizzy mechanic make sense as a trade-off to get the OOC benefits. The problem is the +Down (knockdown and additional damage) is overly punishing when you are harvesting and have no choice of OOC vs IC, and you are not abusing anything. Why couldn't it be something like Dizzy+Leeching Seed or Dizzy+Snare, so it's a disadvantage but a more recoverable one?

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7 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Making it the Survival Tray the out of combat state cleaned up so much confusion on what mode the player was in.

Dizzy has always been a large reason why people stay in combat mode in hostile areas as well as don't dance in and out of combat for higher regen ticks. I know it s not your favorite mechanic but it keeps people from abusing the benefits from being out of combat. No matter what the mechanic would be it would be unpopular and we need the 2 states not just for gameplay reasons but also for character animation purposes. (Just so you know)

Attacking a tree and being forced into the Survival Tray will bring a new wrinkle to attacking a tree of life, and will make the attacking team want to secure the area before attacking the tree. Also makes for a last ditch defense possibility. There seems to be some potential gameplay here, so we want to check it out.

Would it be possible to change dizzy to a snare/daze plus increased damage taken rather than the hard CC knockdown? This would still prevent runners and would punish those trying to dance in and out of combat for increased regen but would be less punishing for those who are simply caught off guard and not trying to abuse the run speed / Regen. Make the first hit while out of combat apply the snare / increased dmg taken / screen blur for a 2-3 seconds and each hit while out of combat refreshes the 2-3 second duration. Block the ability to enter a stealth tray while dizzy (except for ultimate abilities) and it will prevent stealthers from popping back into stealth too easily. 

 

 

 

Edited by blazzen

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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8 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Left click is for the loaded weapon and yes we do have a bit of implementation work to make it work seamless for the Duelist. (not entirely sure what we are going to do for them yet)

What if you allow the duelist the choice of slotting pistol in mainhand, rapier in offhand and vice versa? Then whatever is in the main hand gets the LMB attack. I believe this tech was mentioned for other dual wielding classes (such as Myrm) where they can choose different weapons for the main hand and offhand. 

Master of Pistols currently grants the pistol LMB so if you did choose to implement the suggestion above you could change master of pistols to improve the pistol LMB combo. Something similar to the confessor LMB would be interesting where the third attack is a 3 shot burst. 

Edited by blazzen

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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8 hours ago, thomasblair said:

 

The right click is for the dodge powers. Left click is for the loaded weapon and yes we do have a bit of implementation work to make it work seamless for the Duelist. (not entirely sure what we are going to do for them yet)

The duelist is the only Class that equips a melee and a ranged weapon at the same time. So I can see how its uniqueness doesn't fit with the separation of ranged and melee trees.

It also has the most extreme racial restrictions and the least training synergy of any other race/class combination.  I hope you are able to make sure it is compensated for the limitations you put on it.

From a training perspective it requires you to train both ranged and melee powers/ stats as well.

www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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Guys, I am not sure if I've got something wrong or if this hasn't crossed your minds but, as someone who wanted to be a crafter (and therefore farm lots of resources), I cannot imagine myself farming resources in such a click intensive ways.

 

I've done this a lot in Rust and RuneScape, and in Rust you could macro (in-game) the farming action and in RS it's a one click per resource(in our case, 1 click per stamina bar). If farming resources is so click intensive, imagine doing this for a couple hundred times everyday, not being able to go semi-afk (alt+tab, take a look at your phone, take or hands off your kb+m, etc) is absurd.

 

I understand botters are something to be worried about, but IMHO making farming so click-intensive is not a good way to do it and it punishes farmers even more than they already will be (i.e. materials go flying instead of going directly do your inventory, you're an easy target whilst farming, your stamina goes down so you're dead if you need to fight/run - and currently you can't even use chat or take a look at your inventory whilst at it).

 

I feel like if harvesting is so click intensive and punishing I'll either make a macro/bind it to some other key, which usually means something is bad/wrong, or just give up being a crafter/harvester altogether - even though I liked doing it in every game I played.

 

Am I alone in this or do you guys think the harvesting's gotta be difficult, punishing and maybe cause carpo tunnel syndrome?

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1 hour ago, blazzen said:

What if you allow the duelist the choice of slotting pistol in mainhand, rapier in offhand and vice versa? Then whatever is in the main hand gets the LMB attack. I believe this tech was mentioned for other dual wielding classes (such as Myrm) where they can choose different weapons for the main hand and offhand. 

Master of Pistols currently grants the pistol LMB so if you did choose to implement the suggestion above you could change master of pistols to improve the pistol LMB combo. Something similar to the confessor LMB would be interesting where the third attack is a 3 shot burst. 

That would solve it..

 

but ideally i want pistols in BOTH hands :)

www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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