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ACE_JackalBark

Crowfall Q&A Live for September: Action Harvesting - Official Discussion

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15 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Current implementation, yes.

 

Making it the Survival Tray the out of combat state cleaned up so much confusion on what mode the player was in.

Dizzy has always been a large reason why people stay in combat mode in hostile areas as well as don't dance in and out of combat for higher regen ticks. I know it s not your favorite mechanic but it keeps people from abusing the benefits from being out of combat. No matter what the mechanic would be it would be unpopular and we need the 2 states not just for gameplay reasons but also for character animation purposes. (Just so you know)

Attacking a tree and being forced into the Survival Tray will bring a new wrinkle to attacking a tree of life, and will make the attacking team want to secure the area before attacking the tree. Also makes for a last ditch defense possibility. There seems to be some potential gameplay here, so we want to check it out.

 

A toggle for specific trays sounds like an interesting option and since it should be an advanced player option we shouldn't have to worry about people getting confused.  Will chat with Akshay to see if we can make it work.

 

The right click is for the dodge powers. Left click is for the loaded weapon and yes we do have a bit of implementation work to make it work seamless for the Duelist. (not entirely sure what we are going to do for them yet)

You could make the tray switchs require full stamina.  If you have anything but full stamina, as in you have been swinging weapons, harvesting, etc, you have to wait out the stamina increase before you can switch back to weapons.

Then simply have any switch cost stamina.  Say it's the energy you need to take to put away/pull out your weapon or something.  Now you have a varied amount of time it takes to flip between the trays, based on how much activity you have performed in any given tray. You can even set rules for different trays.  Switching between ranged and melee for example, could cost next to nothing.

Then you can simply make the survival tray have a damage multiplier. People won't be flopping in and out because it's tied to stamina, and harvesters are ALWAYS burning through it.  Add a very small stamina burn for trailblazer, say something that would see you hit zero stamina in 5 minutes of steady use. It would make it even more strategic when someone jumping a harvester or runner should attack.  They would want to wait until they figured they were completely out of stamina, so as to maximize the time they had them at a disadvantage, rather than them simply being handed that disadvantage from landing a single easy hit, at any time.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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2 hours ago, XpCjU said:

@BaSkA What are you talking about? you have to click once per stamina bar

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have to either hold down LMB or spam LMB.


“War is mass murder, conscription is slavery and taxation is robbery.” ― Murray N. Rothbard
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5 hours ago, blazzen said:

Would it be possible to change dizzy to a snare/daze plus increased damage taken rather than the hard CC knockdown? This would still prevent runners and would punish those trying to dance in and out of combat for increased regen but would be less punishing for those who are simply caught off guard and not trying to abuse the run speed / Regen. Make the first hit while out of combat apply the snare / increased dmg taken / screen blur for a 2-3 seconds and each hit while out of combat refreshes the 2-3 second duration. Block the ability to enter a stealth tray while dizzy (except for ultimate abilities) and it will prevent stealthers from popping back into stealth too easily.

OOC regen and run speed could also be on a cooldown from a change out of combat, effectively removing the benefit from stance dancing while fighting an opponent.


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17 minutes ago, BaSkA said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have to either hold down LMB or spam LMB.

Just make a toggle with your programmable mouse or keyboard.

 

I have one to hold down F, and one to hold down W as I run across an empty world looking for someone... anyone.... doing anything.....


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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1 hour ago, PaleOne said:

Just make a toggle with your programmable mouse or keyboard.

 

I have one to hold down F, and one to hold down W as I run across an empty world looking for someone... anyone.... doing anything.....

Oh yeah, for sure. My point was just that if we really have to bind if you have the hardware or create macros if you don't, that should mean something is wrong/bad :x


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So... "action" harvesting is standing in place while facing the thing you are harvesting and clicking a button...  mmk.  If people like it, fine I don't care.

Moving on, there seems to be a lot of issue with in/out combat states and how you switch between them.  Was manual switching specifically a design goal?  I thought this problem was solved ages ago by having the game detect your combat state for you...  Is the whole point of manual switching simply to provide the opportunity to take advantage of someone who is not "in combat"?  I'm seeing a ton of complaints about that mechanic anyway.  Food for thought maybe.

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@thomasblair

In the video you said that only Assy will have four trays (surv, stealth, melee and ranged with rune) does this mean Ranger will not have access to stealth?  When the stalker and ranger were combined it was implied it would be a class with stealth available.  The ranger already has three trays, stealth would be their fourth.  I know you were just thinking off the top of your head in the video but now that you can sit down and definitely answer some clarity on the issue would be appreciated.

 

I'm all for penalties to people out of combat but shouldn't the system automatically assume your in combat if you're being attacked?  Like the first attack gets full bonus but after that shouldn't it put you in a set default state of being in combat?


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Can I get a dev response to my question about Rangers having access to stealth?  In the video Blair did on Tuesday he said one class has four trays, just wondering if that mean rangers will not have access to stealth.  

 

@thomasblair @Tyrant @jtoddcoleman


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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So, If I'm beating down a stone wall with my spirit hammer; or chopping on a Tree of Life, Banewood Tree, or fort wall with my spirit axe, shouldn't resources that can be picked-up pop-out from the object of my aggression?


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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On 9/20/2017 at 6:30 AM, BaSkA said:

Guys, I am not sure if I've got something wrong or if this hasn't crossed your minds but, as someone who wanted to be a crafter (and therefore farm lots of resources), I cannot imagine myself farming resources in such a click intensive ways.

 

I've done this a lot in Rust and RuneScape, and in Rust you could macro (in-game) the farming action and in RS it's a one click per resource(in our case, 1 click per stamina bar). If farming resources is so click intensive, imagine doing this for a couple hundred times everyday, not being able to go semi-afk (alt+tab, take a look at your phone, take or hands off your kb+m, etc) is absurd.

 

I understand botters are something to be worried about, but IMHO making farming so click-intensive is not a good way to do it and it punishes farmers even more than they already will be (i.e. materials go flying instead of going directly do your inventory, you're an easy target whilst farming, your stamina goes down so you're dead if you need to fight/run - and currently you can't even use chat or take a look at your inventory whilst at it).

 

I feel like if harvesting is so click intensive and punishing I'll either make a macro/bind it to some other key, which usually means something is bad/wrong, or just give up being a crafter/harvester altogether - even though I liked doing it in every game I played.

 

Am I alone in this or do you guys think the harvesting's gotta be difficult, punishing and maybe cause carpo tunnel syndrome?

I am totally with you.  I've been mucking around with harvesting and I do not like it very much.   I don't really see a difference of "Hold F to Harvest" and "Hold LMB to Harvest".  Someone mentioned the idea of click one and it uses a full bar of stamina, I kinda like that idea.  Harvesting, for me, is totally a semi-afk playstyle; let me start a node, alt+tab and surf the net.  Forcing a harvester to constantly interact with the client is a buzzkill;  Combat requires constant interaction, but that is fun and engaging.. swinging an axe at a tree is not very engaging.

As you said, botters suck, but making the harvesting system mind-numbing and punishing for player harvesters is not the solution.  As it currently stands, I probably won't invest much time in harvesting, which saddens me, because I was really looking forward to a harvest/crafter combo player.

 

 

On 9/20/2017 at 11:58 AM, GhostEye said:

So... "action" harvesting is standing in place while facing the thing you are harvesting and clicking a button...  mmk.  If people like it, fine I don't care.

I think this is a very good point; "action" harvesting is not very engaging and I think really does not address the main issue of harvesting.

 

Edited by Solinari
added another quote from another post

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1 hour ago, Solinari said:

I am totally with you.  I've been mucking around with harvesting and I do not like it very much.   I don't really see a difference of "Hold F to Harvest" and "Hold LMB to Harvest".  Someone mentioned the idea of click one and it uses a full bar of stamina, I kinda like that idea.  Harvesting, for me, is totally a semi-afk playstyle; let me start a node, alt+tab and surf the net.  Forcing a harvester to constantly interact with the client is a buzzkill;  Combat requires constant interaction, but that is fun and engaging.. swinging an axe at a tree is not very engaging.

As you said, botters suck, but making the harvesting system mind-numbing and punishing for player harvesters is not the solution.  As it currently stands, I probably won't invest much time in harvesting, which saddens me, because I was really looking forward to a harvest/crafter combo player.

 

 

I think this is a very good point; "action" harvesting is not very engaging and I think really does not address the main issue of harvesting.

 

You people have no idea what harvesting is all about in a PVP oriented game like Crowfall

You are making a bunch of noise in a pvp environment. It isn't boring! Because you can die and lose all your resources at any time!

You will be on edge! With your head on a swivel , with roving  patrols to protect you!

If you go afk and surf the web while you harvest  you will come back to an empty corpse....


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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1 hour ago, Solinari said:

I think this is a very good point; "action" harvesting is not very engaging and I think really does not address the main issue of harvesting.

 

Am I missing something here? Are people already playing 5.3? I want in! ;)

 

Quote

If farming resources is so click intensive, imagine doing this for a couple hundred times everyday, not being able to go semi-afk (alt+tab, take a look at your phone, take or hands off your kb+m, etc) is absurd.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think harvesting should be something that you should be able to go semi-afk on. For one, you're just opening yourself to more risk and you're doing a disservice to your team (both your party and the overall team effort). If you do that in a game like this you deserve to lose your loot imo.

5 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

If you go afk and surf the web while you harvest  you will come back to an empty corpse....

What he said. :P

Edited by Mythforger
What he said.

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30 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

You people have no idea what harvesting is all about in a PVP oriented game like Crowfall

You are making a bunch of noise in a pvp environment. It isn't boring! Because you can die and lose all your resources at any time!

You will be on edge! With your head on a swivel , with roving  patrols to protect you!

Contrary to your opinion,  I believe I do know what harvesting is about on a PVP game.  I can assure you after playing majority crafter in UO for the better part of 10 years, the "excitement" of potential death goes away pretty quick.  Once you are actually attacked or seen is a different story, but the threat of "someone could be coming from any direction at any moment" doesn't last.

Even in the most populated of games you will come across times in which you will be unmolested whilst harvesting.  If you were always being attacked, harasses, chased, killed, while harvesting, you would never get anything harvested!  While I have not played the system, I highly doubt I am going to be dodging, ducking, dipping, diving, and dodging every time I am smacking a tree with my axe.

48 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

If you go afk and surf the web while you harvest  you will come back to an empty corpse....

I 100% agree, that if I want to go surf the web while harvesting I should be punished by an empty corpse.  Punish me by making me lose my loot, not by making harvesting needlessly tedious!

 

27 minutes ago, Mythforger said:

I get what you're saying, but I don't think harvesting should be something that you should be able to go semi-afk on. For one, you're just opening yourself to more risk and you're doing a disservice to your team (both your party and the overall team effort). If you do that in a game like this you deserve to lose your loot imo.

Let me assume that risk then!   I am not talking about being inattentive when I am out with a team gathering resources, I am talking about when I am running around by myself.  Admittedly, I am relatively new to the game, so I could have a gross misunderstanding; is the expectation that people never do anything alone?  That you are always running around with a group, be it harvesting, crafting, looking for fights?  In the current system, I would find running around solo harvesting cathartic if it weren't for the fact that I have to hold F and can't flip to my browser and change webpages.

As I said previously, I agree that the risk of "semi-afk" style harvesting is that I get killed and looted. Please make that be the punishment!

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18 hours ago, Solinari said:

I am totally with you.  I've been mucking around with harvesting and I do not like it very much.   I don't really see a difference of "Hold F to Harvest" and "Hold LMB to Harvest".  Someone mentioned the idea of click one and it uses a full bar of stamina, I kinda like that idea.  Harvesting, for me, is totally a semi-afk playstyle; let me start a node, alt+tab and surf the net.  Forcing a harvester to constantly interact with the client is a buzzkill;  Combat requires constant interaction, but that is fun and engaging.. swinging an axe at a tree is not very engaging.

As you said, botters suck, but making the harvesting system mind-numbing and punishing for player harvesters is not the solution.  As it currently stands, I probably won't invest much time in harvesting, which saddens me, because I was really looking forward to a harvest/crafter combo player.

 

 

I think this is a very good point; "action" harvesting is not very engaging and I think really does not address the main issue of harvesting.

 

 

Thank you for this.

 

I believe some people don't understand what we're complaining about. It's not about the semi-afk aspect of it, it's about it being so click intensive.

 

I don't like mentioning too much other games, but after getting 99 WC, mining, fishing, etc in a couple of accounts in RuneScape, I don't mind farming for months; what I don't (and won't) wanna do is having to be 100% focused to do it.

 

If you read all this and still cannot understand why it sucks, then imagine yourself doing it. If you say "but I never wanted to be a harvester/farmer/crafter in the first place" then I have two things to ask you(with all due respect): Firstly is that then you probably shouldn't care too much about how it works now, should you? And 2nd is that if people who actually want to be harvesters are complaining, there must be some reasoning for it, right?

Now, if you actually like the way it currently works ("action gathering/farming") and you still feel like being a harvester, then I salute you and wish you good luck, because I'm out.


“War is mass murder, conscription is slavery and taxation is robbery.” ― Murray N. Rothbard
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7 hours ago, BaSkA said:

 

Thank you for this.

 

I believe some people don't understand what we're complaining about. It's not about the semi-afk aspect of it, it's about it being so click intensive.

 

I don't like mentioning too much other games, but after getting 99 WC, mining, fishing, etc in a couple of accounts in RuneScape, I don't mind farming for months; what I don't (and won't) wanna do is having to be 100% focused to do it.

 

If you read all this and still cannot understand why it sucks, then imagine yourself doing it. If you say "but I never wanted to be a harvester/farmer/crafter in the first place" then I have two things to ask you(with all due respect): Firstly is that then you probably shouldn't care too much about how it works now, should you? And 2nd is that if people who actually want to be harvesters are complaining, there must be some reasoning for it, right?

Now, if you actually like the way it currently works ("action gathering/farming") and you still feel like being a harvester, then I salute you and wish you good luck, because I'm out.

I'm not sure I would call one left button click/hold every 60 seconds "intensive". 

You should try an RTS if you want to talk about intensive clicking.

We have yet to see the impact of the changes for 5.3.  I am hopeful that they round they got it much better, at least from the live stream it sounds like the guys inside ACE that had problems with the old model, now have at the very least far fewer.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I'm not sure I would call one left button click/hold every 60 seconds "intensive". 

For me, it isn't so much the number of clicks as the forced attention to a mindless task. 

1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

You should try an RTS if you want to talk about intensive clicking.

I have hundreds hours in Warcraft 2, Starcraft, and over 4k hours in Dota2.  It is not about a lot of clicking, it is about that clicking being engaging.  Moving squads of units around the map or microing my summoned units is requires focus, attention, decision making, reaction, etc.  Clicking (or clicking and holding) requires none of these things.

 

1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

We have yet to see the impact of the changes for 5.3.  I am hopeful that they round they got it much better, at least from the live stream it sounds like the guys inside ACE that had problems with the old model, now have at the very least far fewer.

 

Agreed, I have not given up hope, the game is still in very active dev and I am exciting they changed it from "F to interact", perhaps more changes will be coming down the pipeline!

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I'm not sure I would call one left button click/hold every 60 seconds "intensive". 

You should try an RTS if you want to talk about intensive clicking.

We have yet to see the impact of the changes for 5.3.  I am hopeful that they round they got it much better, at least from the live stream it sounds like the guys inside ACE that had problems with the old model, now have at the very least far fewer.

 

If holding a button isn't click intensive, I don't know what intensive means :x


“War is mass murder, conscription is slavery and taxation is robbery.” ― Murray N. Rothbard
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I rarely have the time to visit the forums anymore but, I'd like to see a couple of changes to the crafting system. First, I love the SWG style component and experimentation system but, it's nearly impossible to find subcomponents unless you already know where to look. Please restructure the crafting GUI to allow easier access to subcomponent recipes. If I'm crafting an axe to chop trees I should be able to click on an "axe" recipe and then build it from sub menus without ever leaving the recipe page. Also, since harvesting tools will be separate now, please get rid of the upgrade path for basic tools. It works in minecraft because you rarely ever have to start from scratch but, in Crowfall it feels like punishment when you break a tool.

The rest of it sounds good. Action harvesting is a big upgrade. It might be fun to have harvesting stats available on other weapon types so people can chop trees with a champion axe.

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I really gotta say, that I also enjoy the current summoning animation and it's dedicated motion style for different gatherings. I would like to no have the repeating loop of gathering motions being to short. If u have like motion a, motion a , motion a( gaining speed), motion b, motion b (being into it now), motion c [I think there were three different motions, no?] I would find that really cool. Because if u cycle too fast, it doesn't really feel special, or even realistic, because when u do something, over and over again, u don't change ur motions with every repition. But u do after some time, to reduce strain.

Otherwise I'm looking forward to testing out the new system, it looks promising.


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On 9/23/2017 at 1:33 PM, BaSkA said:

I don't like mentioning too much other games, but after getting 99 WC, mining, fishing, etc in a couple of accounts in RuneScape, I don't mind farming for months; what I don't (and won't) wanna do is having to be 100% focused to do it.

...what? They try to make the game engaging and your complaint is "I have to pay attention to the game"? Sorry, that doesn't make any sense at all.


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