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ClockworkOrange

Tomes P2W Model

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This is really starting to soak in with me. This Tome P2W model that was recently introduced is so dumb, such a poorly thought out catch up mechanic and clearly an attempt by ACE to open up additional sources of revenue down the line.

This game will be which ZERG has paid the most. You have completely catered PVP to the Zerg/P2W crowd.

The moment tomes are introduced, I will exit. I don't believe I will be alone either.

Simple Tome Fix: Skill Cap

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I kinda wish they dumped most of passive levelling and stopped trying to emulate EvE. I mean, if they really wanted to cement "specializations" active levelling would've made way more sense. Want to be the best harvester? You gotta hit those rocks/trees/whatever whole lot. Sure it would be a lot less "casual" and require more active participation, but I think it would be more fun too. The skill tomes was a solution born out of passive skill progression anyway. it's actually not too late for them to infuse some active progression into the skill lines.

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The classes and skills are getting to the point where you need a degree to understand them all.  Archeage has zillions of classes and most of them are garbage and nobody uses them.  Is it going to be the same here?  What happened keep it simple stupid and allow for winners and losers to be decided on skill not the class of the week.  It is nearly impossible to balance all those classes.  Now more P2W? 

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There's a lot of mental gymnastics these days to justify bad systems for the game, it leads me to believe they might be strapped for cash if they want to monetize this way which is inevitable failure in the long term.

Eve is not crowfall, it will not share much overlap in the type of players it attracts.  A lot of the systems borrowed from eve are just not good for an action combat pvp-centric game in 2017. 

I'm always a wait and see how things shake out kind of person, but honestly some of these p2w lines they are trying to push are pretty condemning for the longevity of this game. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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44 minutes ago, Talizar said:

The classes and skills are getting to the point where you need a degree to understand them all.  Archeage has zillions of classes and most of them are garbage and nobody uses them.  Is it going to be the same here?  What happened keep it simple stupid and allow for winners and losers to be decided on skill not the class of the week.  It is nearly impossible to balance all those classes.  Now more P2W? 

They never intended to balance the classes.

 

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They need cash?  The have generated 12 million so far. 

As for class balance I was not calling for one v one balance.  There are usually counters to every class.  when you have 25 variations of X probably 20 of them are not good or not as good as the other 5.  The devs waste all their time making the game more complex than necessary to be fun as they say.   I hope all classes have some purpose in the game does it really take so many iterations to reach that goal?

There does have to be some type of balance for each class and they said that it was making classes strong in some areas and weak in others.  I assume those stats have been being tweaked constantly.  The players will figure it out pretty quick and will play the class of the week or month etc until the subsequent nerf that always seems to come.

These guys seem to look at each other for support a lot.  Makes me wonder if they really believe what they are saying.

Maybe people want eve for fantasy.  That was not how the game will sold to me. 

We are still a long way away from launch.  I guess we will see where it goes.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Talizar said:

The classes and skills are getting to the point where you need a degree to understand them all.  Archeage has zillions of classes and most of them are garbage and nobody uses them.  Is it going to be the same here?  What happened keep it simple stupid and allow for winners and losers to be decided on skill not the class of the week.  It is nearly impossible to balance all those classes.  Now more P2W? 

The base classes are quite easy to understand, it's only when you throw in disciplines do things start to get murky. I'm okay with that, I'd rather not every class be "vanilla". If you want every class to be vanilla and on equal footing, I will save you the time by telling you that crowfall will most likely not be for you. Besides the fact that would make for a very boring game, the developers are striving towards a "perfect imbalance" (watch this video). The best example of this is chess, where different units have different functions, strengths and weaknesses. Does this take away from mechanical "skill"? Sure, but crowfall was never really pitched as a high mechanically skilled game. What you lose on the mechanical side, you gain on the technical side anyways. 

I think the tomes are easy to fix, right now it's just an idea, I'm not sure if a single line of code has even been written for it. The proof of concept they showed us to the actual feature can completely change within that time period. While I think discussing things is fine, I feel the current level of "outrage" is silly.

 

Edited by Helix

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2 hours ago, Talizar said:

They need cash?  The have generated 12 million so far. 

As for class balance I was not calling for one v one balance.  There are usually counters to every class.  when you have 25 variations of X probably 20 of them are not good or not as good as the other 5.  The devs waste all their time making the game more complex than necessary to be fun as they say.   I hope all classes have some purpose in the game does it really take so many iterations to reach that goal?

There does have to be some type of balance for each class and they said that it was making classes strong in some areas and weak in others.  I assume those stats have been being tweaked constantly.  The players will figure it out pretty quick and will play the class of the week or month etc until the subsequent nerf that always seems to come.

These guys seem to look at each other for support a lot.  Makes me wonder if they really believe what they are saying.

Maybe people want eve for fantasy.  That was not how the game will sold to me. 

We are still a long way away from launch.  I guess we will see where it goes.

 

 

 

 

Except that you can't quickly level the type of Flavor of the Month toon. You have to invest a lot of time to develop these race/class combinations. Even discipline rune changes will be much more difficult than creating one out of one piece of ore. Even the catch-up mechanic has diminishing returns. 

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1 hour ago, Helix said:

I think the tomes are easy to fix, right now it's just an idea, I'm not sure if a single line of code has even been written for it. The proof of concept they showed us to the actual feature can completely change within that time period. While I think discussing things is fine, I feel the current level of "outrage" is silly.

I also think the tomes are easy to fix, but the entire Q & A where they were announced we were constantly reminded by Todd "We really think we nailed it this time".

Now you might call me a P2W purest, but I hate any advantage gained by throwing money at the game. EvE does this and I think it is poopy and its a move of a greedy company. I liked SUB based games and I was sad when that model died and was replaced by item mall/p2w bull poop.

Now when the head guy of a company tells me "We really think we nailed it this time" while introducing TWO P2W mechanics (Double professions for VIP and Skill Tomes) I feel we should all grab our pitchforks and torches and strap Todd to a post and tell him we aren't having it.

If you don't speak up now, there is a good chance the proposed system will be adopted. They did say they were actively developing with our feedback and I feel that they have actually done that (I GIVE YOU MANY KUDOS FOR THIS ACE).

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29 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

...

I liked SUB based games and I was sad when that model died and was replaced by item mall/p2w bull poop.

...

If you don't speak up now, there is a good chance the proposed system will be adopted. They did say they were actively developing with our feedback and I feel that they have actually done that (I GIVE YOU MANY KUDOS FOR THIS ACE).

A sub based system is ideal, but that ship has sailed.  However, given where we are I think this one can work.  They will likely need to tweak the system, but the alternative at this point is cash shop poorly made socks mother custard sparkle pony in a ghillie suit.  If I could wave a magic wand, I'd have it be a subscription and the people who'd gripe about that would be the cheap, broke and/or the foolish who actually end up spending more money on a F2P game than a subscription and are too dumb to know it. custard those people--they are ruining MMORPGS.   


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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1) Tomes are a mechanic that will not be present at launch.

2) That time is coming from somewhere- if you want a feeder account you're going to have to tend both it and your main from day one to make sure there's no overlap to maximize effectiveness because of diminishing returns.
3) Tome feeder accounts *cannot* give vertical progression to a main in more than a single branch because they need to invest time in the tome, which means no progression up the tree to keep up with the main.  Good luck finding high tier tomes on the market before nearly everyone has them maxed out anyhow.
4) This one is my favorite... I'm 100% spec'd into gathering and last time I checked I can still 2v1 half of the players in the game.  That 2% buff from feeder accounts isn't going to change that.
5) I think horizontal progression is awesome and a fair thing to pay for.  Yay VIP.


6) Pretend it is a subscription based game that non-subs can also play with full access and full power- just with only one specialty instead of the default two.

Edited by Kith

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26 minutes ago, Kith said:

1) Tomes are a mechanic that will not be present at launch.

Which to me is an indicator that something is wrong with the concept.

If VIP didn't exist or the ability to turn cash into virtual goods, tomes would be great. Costs someone time to create them, but can be traded for whatever in-game. Another form of currency and a way for new players or old to boost themselves through time/effort and the economy. VIP aka Cash just spoils it.

Wonder how they'll advertise this "catch up" mechanic at launch and down the road. "Spend $50 today and in time you can spend more to "catch up" to others!"

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I don't think people (who haven't played ArcheAge) understand how big of a problem the VIP tickets will be. I'm less worried about tomes than I am about whales who buy VIP tickets to just constantly have the best gear all the time.

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4 hours ago, Kith said:

6) Pretend it is a subscription based game that non-subs can also play with full access and full power- just with only one specialty instead of the default two.

Exactly.

I feel amusing how in this forum people point out Crowfall should be better with a subscription model and in the same time other people are complaining about so-called P2W becouse ACE put in the game tradeable advantages. :D 


Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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11 hours ago, Kith said:

6) Pretend it is a subscription based game that non-subs can also play with full access and full power- just with only one specialty instead of the default two.

7 hours ago, RikForFun said:

Exactly.

I feel amusing how in this forum people point out Crowfall should be better with a subscription model and in the same time other people are complaining about so-called P2W becouse ACE put in the game tradeable advantages. :D 

That wasn't what was advertised. From Crowfall Kickstarter:

"Other cool (non-balance affecting) benefits as we think of them! "

Is giving VIP 2 Professions vs the non-VIP 1 Profession balance affecting? This is a Yes or No answer. It is also obvious and if you say No I will call you a liar.

Then there is this from EVE, their inspiration for Crowfall apparently:

http://massivelyop.com/2016/02/15/eve-player-uses-28000-of-skill-injectors-to-create-max-character/

I don't want this ^. I don't want anything like this.

On 9/19/2017 at 8:21 AM, ClockworkOrange said:

This game will be which ZERG has paid the most. You have completely catered PVP to the Zerg/P2W crowd.

So I go back to this, the Zerg that pays the most will win Crowfall.

Edited by ClockworkOrange

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11 hours ago, Kith said:

4) This one is my favorite... I'm 100% spec'd into gathering and last time I checked I can still 2v1 half of the players in the game.  That 2% buff from feeder accounts isn't going to change that.

I honestly just find this funny. You are playing idiots and you must be a class that naturally is better than the other 2. There is very little skill involved in Crowfall. If you think you are outplaying them like a genius you are full of yourself and wrong.

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Yes, Crowfall's skill cap isn't very high right now.  I'm ok with that because I'm not the best FPS/Action player out there.

Eve skill injectors are not limited- zero to max in 3 days is pretty lame, but as the article you linked points out- "having a max-skill character doesn’t provide any real benefit over a well-planned 30-50 million skill point character."  On top of that, even if Tomes don't get changed at all, the fact that they are limited to the tree in which they were earned makes feeding like that astronomically difficult, if not impossible.

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28 minutes ago, Kith said:

Yes, Crowfall's skill cap isn't very high right now.  I'm ok with that because I'm not the best FPS/Action player out there.

Eve skill injectors are not limited- zero to max in 3 days is pretty lame, but as the article you linked points out- "having a max-skill character doesn’t provide any real benefit over a well-planned 30-50 million skill point character."  On top of that, even if Tomes don't get changed at all, the fact that they are limited to the tree in which they were earned makes feeding like that astronomically difficult, if not impossible.

Impossible? You don't seem to know what lengths gamers will go through to exploit any advantage.

But why even allow It? The only reason is for ACE to make more money.

I don't mind tomes as long as they can't make someone statistically more powerful than a VIP player who started on day 1 and never missed a training session.

Money shouldn't create power. That is basically the definition of p2w. I don't understand why you would want that ability in this game unless you just like to blow real life money to give yourself an in game skill advantage.

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