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ClockworkOrange

Tomes P2W Model

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1 hour ago, ClockworkOrange said:

This game was advertised as passive training. I can tell you want active training, but we were never told that is what this game was.

I know, and I think that ACE really missed the boat on this call, and I am glad that tomes can make up for some of it.

There is a more to active training than farming.  The achiever mindset LOVES to do these achievement things, and this video by none other than Bartle himself describes how crazy achievers are for getting achievements (Standing under a tree for an hour without moving), and how profitable compared to social content achiever content is, in this one case achievers were 44X more profitable than socializers when properly targeted.

Typically leveling is achiever content and it bleeds into killer as a means to an end. It's not hard to tell from how ubiquitous the leveling trope is, to realize that MMO's are full to the brim with achievers.  Well with passive training there is not much achievement satisfaction from just waiting for X amount of time (99% of it off line) to pass.  

So yes, slaying 10,000 rats to level is stupid, but totally relying on passive training, is simply not engaging for the audience it is supposed to be targeted to. It removes leveling as a GOAL, and something that is felt to have been earned, and turns it into a means to an end. It's a measure of patience, not effort. 

If it is only a means to an end and given without effort, it may as well be handed out quickly, or simply sold, so players can do what it is they wanted to do with those skills in the first place.

Now that it's planned to be a hybrid, being a certain skill level means more, yes that could include spent more money, but that to me is better than you simply out waited other players into quitting the game before you.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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4 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

There have always been, and always will be, players willing to sell things they have earned, to give another player an advantage, for real money.  In any game with trade, this is unavoidable.

True, but devs decide what can be traded. Trading a sword for cash vs trading training boosts come with different risk/rewards. As in, a sword has a limited life and training does not. Tossing training into the mix seems like a mistake as presented.

Quote

There was NO WAY to catch up at all in the previous iterations. 

True and this seems like a backwards way of offering it.

A mechanic that allows already established accounts to go further a head seems counterproductive. The amount of time/effort/money a newer player would need to catch up and stay caught up seems unrealistic with the info given so far.

I don't need to "twink" a year old account.

I get they are trying to accomplish multiple goals with one system, but seems like they are the ones that will benefit the most, not the players.

Why not just offer tomes for sale in the store? If buying VIP and trading for them is fine since some have more cash than time, buying them directly doesn't seem greatly different. Players can still buy VIP and get a better deal in-game from players (or 3rd party companies).

3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I strongly suspect it depends on....

All of the above will also depend on availability of tomes. 

Hopefully ACE lets us know sooner or later what the details are so we don't have to suspect or guess. Working with what they've actually stated, the system seems far from ideal imo.

Tome availability will be a huge factor, guess we'll have to wait and see.

Edited by APE

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If they designed the controls properly, they can just make a dregs 2 that has 0 import of crow skills (skills can only be trained or crafted in the campaign) and 0 'coverage' of shrines/blessings from EK, now if there's still complaints about p2w ...

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Games with subscriptions are pay to win because you can't even play the ****ing game without paying.  This entitlement generation, I swear...

Edited by mourne

"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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The issue for some is the guy that will pay A zillion dollars of gold for some low level item if you even need to give an item back.  Being allowed to trade gold brings............gold farmers/sellers.  BDO doesn't allow any player trades or they didn't and they set prices for everything.  Not saying this system is great but it did stop the gold farmers.

The issue is can you stop the guy with more money than all of us combined getting a huge advantage in game.   Can a rich guy buy everything for his guild etc. 

I understand the issue with the passive training.  Yes people like to accomplish things in game for certain.  What I disliked was RNG in earning something.  In BDO you got a random grade for each monster you killed, getting that grade could take 1 kill or 1000 or more sometimes.  The better the grade the better the loot.  Interesting twist but the KR games have far far far too much rng to the point that people did not feel they were really in control of their toons and what they wanted to do.  The RNG tin foil got so bad that people started making stuff up like when you created your toon there was Rng in a number of categories where I might not have as much endurance at the next guy. 

The min maxing seems to take a lot of fun out of things when you have to worry about a few points in some odd category making a difference in a battle? I suspect most of the problems are in the players heads but they really think it so it becomes reality.

I do not want to kill 10000000 bugs to learn X.  I would love to go on a quest line from my teachers and learn how to do X by killing some things etc.  At least make it interesting. 

If people like endless grinding I think there are enough games that do this now.  Please let me have fun when I can play.  Fun <> forced grinding

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I will love if there is a guy that will pay CF a zillion dollars.  Can you imagine how awesome they could make the game with a zillion dollars? 

No, it won't bring more gold farmers/sellers, because that is mostly prevalent in games that restrict the ability to sell.  It creates a black market.  Allowing players to use game mechanics to trade without using a black market and risking being banned reduces gold farmers/sellers.  Just like legalizing drugs would cripple the black market for drugs.  L2economy.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

cdinUTh.png

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On 9/19/2017 at 11:39 AM, Helix said:

I kinda wish they dumped most of passive levelling and stopped trying to emulate EvE. I mean, if they really wanted to cement "specializations" active levelling would've made way more sense. Want to be the best harvester? You gotta hit those rocks/trees/whatever whole lot. Sure it would be a lot less "casual" and require more active participation, but I think it would be more fun too. The skill tomes was a solution born out of passive skill progression anyway. it's actually not too late for them to infuse some active progression into the skill lines.

I actually don't think it's less casual, I think it helps casual players. For one thing it allows players to catch up when it suits them which is one of the things that makes someone casual - limited time schedule to play. So you have a free weekend or a day off work and want to grind your eyeballs out all day to catch up? Great, a casual player can do that. Plus it also allows them to introduce various xp bonus catch up mechanics. ESO has something I forget the name of, but depending on how long you've been away from the game or just logged out, you basically start saving up XP boost for Champion Points when you log back in to play. So it helps you catch back up in CP by playing once you get a chance to - faster xp gain for a period of time than someone who plays every day. They could easily apply these types of mechanics to skill gains in Crowfall with an active leveling system.

Edit: Sorry the ESO system is called Enlightenment and apparently works on reducing the amount of XP needed, instead of direct XP gain bonuses. But I can tell you it works quite well. Logging in after not playing for months and you start earning CP super quickly. And bonus - it doesn't involve buying or selling anything and requires actual gameplay to gain advantage from it. I mean if ACE wants to get money out of it, they can just make it so VIP gets more XP reduction from it or something. I'm ok with that. But here's how it works:

Quote

 

Every 24 hours, you receive enough Enlightenment to earn one Champion Point at the rate of 100,000XP per Point; after your Enlightenment is used up, you will return to requiring 400,000XP to earn a Champion Point. The 24 hour timer starts when you log in with your first Veteran character or unlock the Champion System, whichever is first, and resets every 24 hours after it first starts. You will receive a message on your screen that you are Enlightened, and you can also hover over your XP bar to see if you are Enlightened.

If you end up not using up all your Enlightenment while you play, it will continue to accrue for a maximum of 12 days. Once you hit the limit, you will not gain any additional Enlightenment until you begin to use it by gaining XP.

 

 

Edited by Leiloni

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4 hours ago, bOcy said:

If they designed the controls properly, they can just make a dregs 2 that has 0 import of crow skills (skills can only be trained or crafted in the campaign) and 0 'coverage' of shrines/blessings from EK, now if there's still complaints about p2w ...

If enough people were interested, I'd likely pay a fee to play such a option without any need of rewards in return.

Would enjoy a campaign mode with 10x training speed or something like that without any import/export, 2-4 weeks, or even give X training to spend at the start and then faster train speed.

50 minutes ago, mourne said:

No, it won't bring more gold farmers/sellers, because that is mostly prevalent in games that restrict the ability to sell.  It creates a black market.  Allowing players to use game mechanics to trade without using a black market and risking being banned reduces gold farmers/sellers.  

Any evidence of this?

Quick search of games with ability to sell/trade cash shop items all have 3rd party re sellers.

It might drive the prices down for 3rd parties, but it doesn't take them out of the equation.

Albion being one of the recent MMOs that B2P with optional sub and cash for gold system that has 3rd party sites and people being banned.

I've seen this reasoning used before just like having a box price or sub keeps farmers/bots away, yet they exist in pretty much any game with box/sub. Not sure there is anyway to measure how much impact one way or another these systems have, just assumptions.

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6 minutes ago, APE said:

Any evidence of this?

Quick search of games with ability to sell/trade cash shop items all have 3rd party re sellers.

It might drive the prices down for 3rd parties, but it doesn't take them out of the equation.

Albion being one of the recent MMOs that B2P with optional sub and cash for gold system that has 3rd party sites and people being banned.

I've seen this reasoning used before just like having a box price or sub keeps farmers/bots away, yet they exist in pretty much any game with box/sub. Not sure there is anyway to measure how much impact one way or another these systems have, just assumptions.

The only game I played that did this was TERA and yea it worked there to keep gold sellers away, but what you get instead is whales earning tons of in game gold to get the best gear. I'm sure jasta85 will hop in and say it's not P2W because you can earn the gear in game, but that's not going to stop people from hating that type of system and calling it P2W anyway. It's ok in a game like TERA and didn't feel like it had a huge impact, but here it would.

Edited by Leiloni

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If enough people were interested, I'd likely pay a fee to play such a option without any need of rewards in return.

Would enjoy a campaign mode with 10x training speed or something like that without any import/export, 2-4 weeks, or even give X training to spend at the start and then faster train speed.

Sounds like a week long battle arena game

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6 hours ago, mourne said:

Games with subscriptions are pay to win because you can't even play the ****ing game without paying.  This entitlement generation, I swear...

That is called Pay to Play..."This <whatever generation you are from", I swear...

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Free to play (F2P) seems to be the MMO model of the times.  I have to wonder if that model is causing more of the issues we are seeing in todays games.  

The companies must feel that they can make more money with a F2P concept vs the older subscription based models.    Some subscription models that are interlaced in a F2P could be considered P2W.  BDO gives huge AH tax breaks and other bonuses that many consider P2W.  Archeage requires their sub to own land.  Both subs can be paid for with in game gold so you don't necessarily have to pay in cash.

 

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"Catch up" is just an insidious way of saying "power level". I think the best suggestion I've read so far is time locking progression on the tomes so you can't get "ahead of the game". If it takes 8 months to complete a skill line, and the game has only been out for 6 months, you shouldn't be able to train your skill lines past the age of the game. Simple solution, and it still lets your friends, guild mates, alternative accounts to "catch up" and be competitive. Players that fall behind a year, or years with the current skill system will be custarded without the tome system. How to deal with the RMT for tome possibility? I don't know, but someone paying money to get ahead of everyone else is not okay; paying money to be on the same level as someone else MIGHT be more palatable, especially when it's something with the skill system which a way more shallower power curve.

Edited by Helix

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1 hour ago, Talizar said:

Free to play (F2P) seems to be the MMO model of the times.  I have to wonder if that model is causing more of the issues we are seeing in todays games.  

The companies must feel that they can make more money with a F2P concept vs the older subscription based models.    Some subscription models that are interlaced in a F2P could be considered P2W.  BDO gives huge AH tax breaks and other bonuses that many consider P2W.  Archeage requires their sub to own land.  Both subs can be paid for with in game gold so you don't necessarily have to pay in cash.

 

It really depends on the company's goal doesn't it.  See here is the thing, POWER SELLS.  As bad as it is for a game's eco system and competitive spirit to sell any amount of power, the fact remains that there are those who will buy it, and in vast quantities, in order to generate the feeling they want from how they play the game, and some companies have ZERO compunction about milking that cow and model as long as they can.

We can see it in CF in the example of Tark.  He has over 30 accounts, and that is because according to him his "play style". The fact is, in that case, his play style is to have power and influence through alt accounts. So he has basically bought power, and paid to win. In a couple of years, he could sell those matured accounts, and someone else will get to use his training time to pay to win.

ACE can either bake in some controls, like diminishing returns, into how money is converted to power, or simply leave it, plug their ears and close their eyes to it happening and say "NANANANANAN I can't hear you", or provide a controlled outlet for it and manage it.

The only other way to manage it, is to make sure with game mechanics that neither more accounts, or money provides a power advantage. Well the only way to do that, would be to insure no ALT accounts ever entered the playing field to provide crafting support, thrall manufacturing slots, and to bypass the import/export limits. Since they consider that an impossible task, and one not even being built around, managed paid power is simply the better alternative. 

There is a spectrum here.  

  • From Bad (Buy unlimited power directly with your credit card)
  • Good (Buy limited power directly with your credit card)
  • Better (Buy something and be required to go through other players/accounts to convert it to power)
  • Best (Design a game that does not give any advantage with additional money).

CF falls into the better category.  League of Legends falls almost into the best, although even there you can keep up with the champion meta better if you can afford to buy all the champions quickly.

For CF to fall into the best category, The entire skill power gate would need to be changed from passive over time, to quality of vessel limits a selected set of skills at time of creation, AND they would have to stop selling parcels, and anything else in the shop that can be earned in game, moving to strictly cosmetic.  

Since they made legally binding claims in the funding round about how the cash shop is going to make the company money, they literally can't stop selling parcels and other items that can be earned in game.  It was part of the business plan that cleared the SEC requirements for public funding, and although I am not a lawyer, I suspect any investor could sue and have a good shot at a case for misrepresentation if they changed things that dramatically.

So we are locked to better.  Buy something that requires us to go through other players/accounts to convert to power. It's always been there in the form of parcels, now they have added skills.  Out of system even basic gear and gold trades can be arranged. I do not buy the argument that skills are 'permanent' makes it any different. Just because gear in a consumable, something that fades, does not make it any less paying for power if you simply keep buying more. Parcels are permanent as well, and in any case, none of this is any more permanent than the life of the game.

If anyone sees anything wrong with this assessment, let me know. But I don't see anything else ACE can even do at this point. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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So they guy that buys 30 account and 30 subs will still have a significant advantage?  Yes?

One account per person is the proper way but nearly impossible to manage.

Plus ACE makes 30x more money allowing mr/mrs moneybags to create and buy as many accounts as he wants.

Edited by Talizar

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14 minutes ago, Talizar said:

So they guy that buys 30 account and 30 subs will still have a significant advantage?  Yes?

One account per person is the proper way but nearly impossible to manage.

Plus ACE makes 30x more money allowing mr/mrs moneybags to create and buy as many accounts as he wants.

I mean, I don't know what you expect the devs to do. They created their own quagmire with passive leveling. EvE had this exact same problem when it came to being accessible to new players with their passive system, hence the reason skill injectors were introduced. If it only took a month or two to fully flesh out your character like in other games, "catching up" wouldn't even be an issue. That's not the reality we live in tho. At last estimate it takes 12 years to train everything, and many of the skill lines take months to complete. That's for a single skill line. A new player would be at a severe time disadvantage. If crowfall was a pve game and not a competitive pvp game where every advantage matters, the current skil system and pacing would be fine. Imagine coming into the game a year or two years or 3+ years. You want to craft that purple vessel? Well fck you, cause you gotta wait 8+ months to do it, but johnson over there can do it, and he's gonna pipe you down hard with it as well. What about all the stat advantages that the class lines provide? Guaranteed way to piss people off and stifle the growth of the game.

Edited by Helix

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8 hours ago, bOcy said:

Sounds like a week long battle arena game

I suggested 2-4 weeks, but yes I wouldn't mind a "battle arena" feel of fresh start, relatively "even" playing field, fight it out, win/lose, move on.

CF is a blend of battle arenas and MMO progression so offering a clean slate ruleset doesn't seem too off.

Personally don't care about EK, trophies, titles or any of that and want to just compete with others in a more complex world setting than found in a MOBA.

Not sure if they will get that creative, but I bet I'm not alone in willingness to pay for such an option. Much rather throw money at them to play "fair" than buy advantage.

Dregs with no import is close, but tomes still provide stat power and I assume will be less popular than faction campaigns due to zerging and possible "harsher" settings.

1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

ACE can either bake in some controls, like diminishing returns, into how money is converted to power, or simply leave it, plug their ears and close their eyes to it happening and say "NANANANANAN I can't hear you", or provide a controlled outlet for it and manage it.

Since they made legally binding claims in the funding round about how the cash shop is going to make the company money, they literally can't stop selling parcels and other items that can be earned in game.  

I do not buy the argument that skills are 'permanent' makes it any different. Just because gear in a consumable, something that fades, does not make it any less paying for power if you simply keep buying more. Parcels are permanent as well, and in any case, none of this is any more permanent than the life of the game.

But I don't see anything else ACE can even do at this point. 

There is plenty they can still do and likely will as we have little info on what they plan as far as restrictions and what not.

Unfortunately I believe you hit it on the head that they see an opportunity to get money from folks willing to buy advantage and their reasoning is "we think twinking is cool" and "some people have more money than time."

I've said multiple times prior that they needed to provide the catch up mechanic before launch so good for them, but tomes seem like a weak solution.

There are many options when it comes to how tomes actually work in regards to account age/progression, diminishing returns, use timers, for both the creator and consumer.

They aren't going to stop selling items in the shop, but they don't have to add more that add to the problem.

I agree that anything bought is a form of power, but at least there is potential for risk involved when buying gold, gear, resources. They can be lost. Tomes and VIP provide permanent individual power gains. Going with a scale, Tomes = Bad, VIP = Less Bad, Parcels = Even Less Bad. :). Training/stats follow a player everywhere, parcels not so much (back would get tired).

So while VIP and cash shop trading has been in from the start and will be a baked in form of cash for power/advantage, they don't need to make it worse. Tomes could be a great way to help newer players free or at a cost, but currently don't seem like a good solution and more just furthering cash for advantage issue.

All of this is speculation of course as they don't update the FAQ or provide details for a while when dropping such things on us.

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1 hour ago, Helix said:

I mean, I don't know what you expect the devs to do. They created their own quagmire with passive leveling. EvE had this exact same problem when it came to being accessible to new players with their passive system, hence the reason skill injectors were introduced. If it only took a month or two to fully flesh out your character like in other games, "catching up" wouldn't even be an issue. That's not the reality we live in tho. At last estimate it takes 12 years to train everything, and many of the skill lines take months to complete. That's for a single skill line. A new player would be at a severe time disadvantage. If crowfall was a pve game and not a competitive pvp game where every advantage matters, the current skil system and pacing would be fine. Imagine coming into the game a year or two years or 3+ years. You want to craft that purple vessel? Well fck you, cause you gotta wait 8+ months to do it, but johnson over there can do it, and he's gonna pipe you down hard with it as well. What about all the stat advantages that the class lines provide? Guaranteed way to piss people off and stifle the growth of the game.

Exactly. 

They are squaring the problem not just multiplying it, by trying to shoe horn in the EvE passive training model. I think I understand why they did it, but I think it was a bad call.

I suspect they did it as a method for keeping people from doing everything in the game.  Channeling people into specific roles. The problem is, that ability to gate people from doing everything is only a facade, hidden behind ALT accounts as much as it is by time. 

The REAL goal should have been to prevent people from doing everything in an individual campaign world, not from restricting players from playing multiple roles in different worlds. 

My opinion. When you step into YOUR EK, you should have ALL the skills in very short order.  When you enter a campaign world to compete, and possibly more specifically a vessel, you have to pick limited skills you want that vessel to have.

If that was gated by a passive training system that measured time in hours rather than days, then fine.  A year to have a crow that could do everything in an EK is one thing. Buy that power all day long, you're not going to be more than a few days ahead of someone that decides to focus against you with passive training anyway

By makings skills a source of power, or even just flexibility, and hiding that source behind a time gate, they have simply encouraged achievers to try to figure out how to bypass those restrictions, rather than use the natural inclinations of an achiever to achieve their way to access. Just like they can't stop people from figuring out how to buy and use multiple accounts, they will never cage in those dedicated to getting the flexibility the game is trying to restrict.

I think the game would be much more fun, and more fairly balanced, if they simply included the skills in the same category as the other TANK's they try to prevent from getting into each world. It's the one thing that can go all "Uncle Bob", and bypass intended power gate limitations.

I just hope the model they did pick is good enough to work.  It is probably a significant re-write to tie skills to specific campaigns or vessels.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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11 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Exactly. 

They are squaring the problem not just multiplying it, by trying to shoe horn in the EvE passive training model. I think I understand why they did it, but I think it was a bad call.

I suspect they did it as a method for keeping people from doing everything in the game.  The problem is, that ability to gate people from doing everything is only a facade, hidden behind ALT accounts more than it is by time. 

The REAL goal should have been to prevent people from doing everything in an individual campaign world, not from restricting players from playing multiple roles in different worlds. 

My opinion. When you step into an EK, you have ALL the skills.  When you enter a campaign world, and more specifically a vessel, you have to pick limited skills you want that vessel to have.

If that was gated by a passive training system that measured time in hours rather than days, then fine.  A year to have a crow that could do everything in an EK is one thing. Buy that power all day long because you're, not going to be more than a few days ahead of someone that decides to focus against you with passive training anyway

By makings skills a source of power, or even just flexibility, and hiding that source behind a time gate, they have simply encouraged achievers to try to figure out how to bypass those restrictions, rather than use the natural inclinations of an achiever to achieve their way to access. Just like they can't stop people from figuring out how to buy and use multiple accounts, they will never cage in those dedicated to getting the flexibility the game is trying to restrict.

I think the game would be much more fun, and more fairly balanced, if they simply included the skills in the same category as the other TANK's they try to prevent from getting into each world.

I just hope the model they did pick is good enough to work.  It is probably a significant re-write to tie skills to specific campaigns.

It would've been easier if they just went the UO style, or you know, like how many other games have done it since then. Allocate a certain amount of skill points to pick and choose which lines or nodes you want to invest in. You could still have passive progression within those certain lines or you could do one better and have active participation contribute towards progression in those chosen skill lines. You can even sell skill resets in the store for a pretty penny.Skill progression doesn't need to be a  year long thing, or a 12 year thing. If it took 6 months to get the character you wanted skill line wise, I don't think that would be a problem. You can tack on additional progression with expansions if there is actual demand for that type of thing. 

Personally I look at vessels, gear and disciplines as the REAL progression of the game. The skill lines are just a means to an end. If we progressed faster through the skill lines I don't really see that being all to bad, but there would obviously have to be some kind of aforementioned cap in place so you can't just blaze through everything.

Edited by Helix

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1 minute ago, Helix said:

It would've been easier if they just went the UO style, or you know, like how many other games have done it since then. Allocate a certain amount of skill points to pick and choose which lines or nodes you want to invest in. You could still have passive progression within those certain lines or you could do one better and have active participation contribute towards progression in those chosen skill lines. You can even sell skill resets in the store for a pretty penny. Progression doesn't need to be a 12 year thing, or a year long thing. If it took 6 months to get the character you wanted skill line wise, I don't think that would be a problem. You can tack on additional progression with expansions if there is actual demand for that type of thing. 

Personally I look at vessels, gear and disciplines as the REAL progression of the game. The skill lines are just a means to an end. If we progressed faster through the skill lines, I don't really see that being all to bad, but there would obviously have to be some kind of aforementioned cap in place so you can't just blaze through everything.

If they did that by worlds, they would have a much more interesting set of configuration options.

Some worlds start, and you have access to nothing, and open it up over time.

Some worlds start, and you have enough time banked to fill out basics.

Some worlds start, and you have 50% of the time needed for any one profession, with the expectation being you will fill out the other 50% during the course of the match.

Some worlds start, and you can do everything, but really only have time to pick a few things to do.  Perhaps these worlds are only open to players with finished skill trees, which take a year to flesh out.

World gated skills would just be soo much better.  Tied to worlds there is no risk of a player getting too much power forever, you simply figure out the pace people actually prefer, and that becomes the pace for most future worlds. Then Tomes' become just like every other item, a temporary advantage.

Sigh, that's not the vision for the game though, so I think we are at least stuck with this for a while.  The fact that they havn't noticed that after a year of training we STILL NEED the custard booster potions to make the game tolerable, tells me they are not really re-examining this any time soon.

Maybe CrowFall two.

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