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ClockworkOrange

Tomes P2W Model

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4 hours ago, Talizar said:

So they guy that buys 30 account and 30 subs will still have a significant advantage?  Yes?

One account per person is the proper way but nearly impossible to manage.

Plus ACE makes 30x more money allowing mr/mrs moneybags to create and buy as many accounts as he wants.

I've said this before but I don't think it would be hard to control. TERA had a problem with people multi-accounting for a while and what they did was limit the amount of different account logins per IP per day. So if they limited it to 2 accounts per day let's say, you could have 30 accounts but would only be able to use 2 per day because once they see 2 accounts logging in from the same IP, they cut you off. You can still log in repeatedly from those 2 accounts, just not any more.

Even if you went to the trouble to change your IP, you'd still only get 2 logins unless you kept on changing it throughout the day just to gain access to your numerous alt accounts. I don't see most people bothering with changing it even once. Unless I'm missing something, the multi-account problem is not really a problem. It's just up to ACE to track IP logins and decide on a limit. I only say 2 because if a husband and wife are logging in from the same IP that might be a problem.

Besides, isn't this something a lot of game companies track anyway for security purposes? Like if some Chinese gold seller gets a hold of my log in info, for some games you get an email warning that another IP has tried to log in. I believe GW2 does this. 

Edited by Leiloni
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13 minutes ago, Leiloni said:

I've said this before but I don't think it would be hard to control. TERA had a problem with people multi-accounting for a while and what they did was limit the amount of different account logins per IP per day. So if they limited it to 2 accounts per day let's say, you could have 30 accounts but would only be able to use 2 per day because once they see 2 accounts logging in from the same IP, they cut you off. You can still log in repeatedly from those 2 accounts, just not any more.

Even if you went to the trouble to change your IP, you'd still only get 2 logins unless you kept on changing it througout the day just to gain acess to your numerous alt accounts. I don't see most people bothering with changing it even once. Unless I'm missing something, the multi-account problem is not really a problem. It's just up to ACE to track IP logins and decide on a limit. I only say 2 because if a husband and wife are logging in from the same IP that might be a problem.

Besides, isn't this something a lot of game companies track anyway for security purposes? Like if some Chinese gold seller gets a hold of my log in info, for some games you get an email warning that another IP has tried to log in. I believe GW2 does this. 

I like this idea, but it might make it difficult for people who like to do LAN parties, or for off-campus university housing and such.

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5 minutes ago, GhostEye said:

I like this idea, but it might make it difficult for people who like to do LAN parties, or for off-campus university housing and such.

I'm sure if En Masse Entertainment can figure it out, then ACE can, too.

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3 minutes ago, Leiloni said:

I'm sure if En Masse Entertainment can figure it out, then ACE can, too.

Yeah, there must be a way.  Maybe only apply the restriction if there is a certain type of trend for say a given account always connecting on the IP as several other accounts.  That way the IP restriction isn't necessarily the issue.

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1 hour ago, Leiloni said:

I've said this before but I don't think it would be hard to control. TERA had a problem with people multi-accounting for a while and what they did was limit the amount of different account logins per IP per day. So if they limited it to 2 accounts per day let's say, you could have 30 accounts but would only be able to use 2 per day because once they see 2 accounts logging in from the same IP, they cut you off. You can still log in repeatedly from those 2 accounts, just not any more.

Even if you went to the trouble to change your IP, you'd still only get 2 logins unless you kept on changing it throughout the day just to gain access to your numerous alt accounts. I don't see most people bothering with changing it even once. Unless I'm missing something, the multi-account problem is not really a problem. It's just up to ACE to track IP logins and decide on a limit. I only say 2 because if a husband and wife are logging in from the same IP that might be a problem.

Besides, isn't this something a lot of game companies track anyway for security purposes? Like if some Chinese gold seller gets a hold of my log in info, for some games you get an email warning that another IP has tried to log in. I believe GW2 does this. 

As someone who had to deal with this when building a bingo/lottery site, this is a fairly simple to implement stall tactic to break down rampant use of multi accounts.

It can go much further, up to and including forcing registrants to identify themselves with picture ID's, but that would be overkill in the extreme for this type of game.

Properly designed, the limit can start at two, and if someone were to say want 3 or 4 because of children etc, it's rather trivial to push those players through a vetting process and then modify the limit for their accounts. There is also the issue in some parts of the world of communities sharing a range of IP addresses.  When I was doing this, there was one neighborhood of people who had no relationship with each other, that had about 25 IP addresses mixed in among 50 or so players, that swapped almost at random, sometimes in mid session. It was a real pain in the arse.  

One thing ACE has going for it, is the install. So each install could be given an serial number. If you want to run multi accounts, you would need to have multiple installed clients, and start/stop them.  I can guarantee you that 99% of the guys that would try this, would screw up at some point and log in with the wrong serial number.  Watching for a week or so, and them compiling the behavior, you could probably connect the dots to as many accounts as they owned. You don't tell them how you are checking, and you don't lock them out immediately.  You let is cook for a while so they never know for sure what method got them caught.

Take it a step further.  If you do this and get caught, you are immediately kicked FOREVER from the campaign in question.  You can play other campaigns, but each time you are caught, you lose EVERYTHING you may have gained from doing so.

ACE seems to think multi account can't , or even shouldn't be stopped, but in reality it can. It can at the very least be discouraged by increasing the number of flaming hoops you have to jump through to bypass limitations.

PUBG just had a similar problem with Bot's farming free BP by just joining games they had not intention of playing in. Drop from the plane, wait to die from the zone, and collect your BP for doing absolutely nothing. (BP can sometimes translate into very expensive cosmetic items worth hundreds at auction) One simple fix, making it so you had to pick up "anything" from the world before getting points, stopped what feels like 99% of the bots. 

It's just a question of how rampant it is and how important ACE thinks it is, and how much a catch like this will be necessary to protect the integrity of the game from this sort of thing.

I mean look at PUBG's games.  They last less than an hour, with over 10 million players your odds of ever facing the same cheater twice are almost effectively zero, there are no real permanent things you can take from any one game, and you expect to die, quickly, and just jump in again. So of all the games out there, running into a cheater impacts an individual so little in that game, and yet they ban in droves. 

I suspect with import/export and Thrall slots being limited to accounts, ACE is going to find out the hard way just how much that sort of behavior can screw with things. Just imagine playing risk vs a guy who is playing three of the five teams.

ACE is going to have to take it seriously at some point.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

As someone who had to deal with this when building a bingo/lottery site, this is a fairly simple to implement stall tactic to break down rampant use of multi accounts.

It can go much further, up to and including forcing registrants to identify themselves with picture ID's, but that would be overkill in the extreme for this type of game.

Properly designed, the limit can start at two, and if someone were to say want 3 or 4 because of children etc, it's rather trivial to push those players through a vetting process and then modify the limit for their accounts. There is also the issue in some parts of the world of communities sharing a range of IP addresses.  When I was doing this, there was one neighborhood of people who had no relationship with each other, that had about 25 IP addresses mixed in among 50 or so players, that swapped almost at random, sometimes in mid session. It was a real pain in the arse.  

One thing ACE has going for it, is the install. So each install could be given an serial number. If you want to run multi accounts, you would need to have multiple installed clients, and start/stop them.  I can guarantee you that 99% of the guys that would try this, would screw up at some point and log in with the wrong serial number.  Watching for a week or so, and them compiling the behavior, you could probably connect the dots to as many accounts as they owned. You don't tell them how you are checking, and you don't lock them out immediately.  You let is cook for a while so they never know for sure what method got them caught.

Take it a step further.  If you do this and get caught, you are immediately kicked FOREVER from the campaign in question.  You can play other campaigns, but each time you are caught, you lose EVERYTHING you may have gained from doing so.

ACE seems to think multi account can't , or even shouldn't be stopped, but in reality it can. It can at the very least be discouraged by increasing the number of flaming hoops you have to jump through to bypass limitations.

PUBG just had a similar problem with Bot's farming free BP by just joining games they had not intention of playing in. Drop from the plane, wait to die from the zone, and collect your BP for doing absolutely nothing. (BP can sometimes translate into very expensive cosmetic items worth hundreds at auction) One simple fix, making it so you had to pick up "anything" from the world before getting points, stopped what feels like 99% of the bots. 

It's just a question of how rampant it is and how important ACE thinks it is, and how much a catch like this will be necessary to protect the integrity of the game from this sort of thing.

I mean look at PUBG's games.  They last less than an hour, with over 10 million players your odds of ever facing the same cheater twice are almost effectively zero, there are no real permanent things you can take from any one game, and you expect to die, quickly, and just jump in again. So of all the games out there, running into a cheater impacts an individual so little in that game, and yet they ban in droves. 

I suspect with import/export and Thrall slots being limited to accounts, ACE is going to find out the hard way just how much that sort of behavior can screw with things. Just imagine playing risk vs a guy who is playing three of the five teams.

ACE is going to have to take it seriously at some point.

Yep, PUBG is run by En Masse as well. Same company that runs the NA TERA I was talking about. And both were developed by BHS.

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6 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

 It is probably a significant re-write to tie skills to specific campaigns or vessels.

Maybe but seems like something any decent dev studio could put together.

Considering most MMOs since the 90s figured out how to have multiple characters per server along with multiple servers.

Having an EK build, Campaign A build, and Campaign B build doesn't seem too different and if anything much simpler.

Have a pull down box from the main menu where we choose what we want to work on training.

Then again, don't have any clue how hard that would be at this point. Still wondering if/how we'll play in multiple campaigns and access EKs while participating in them. Years in and some big aspects of the game are a mystery.

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15 hours ago, ironarm said:

That is called Pay to Play..."This <whatever generation you are from", I swear...

If you can't even play the game without paying you can't win without paying.  But yeah, let's ***** about them not giving us enough for free.  People should be happy they can even play without a subscription in the first place.  Every MMO I can even think of can be "pay to win" and there isn't a **** thing devs can do about it.  I can go buy max level characters in any game I want.  I can go buy gold from gold sellers in any game I want.  This bandying about "P2W" about everything is garbage. 

I don't care what generation you personally are from.  If you couldn't read between the lines to comprehend what my point was, you're an idiot in any generation.  For what it's worth, I think you understood my point and are likely not an idiot.  I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just got your panties in a bunch over my snide remark about entitlement generations.  If you actually think that issue doesn't exist, our conversation is over.

Edited by mourne

"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

cdinUTh.png

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On 9/21/2017 at 4:23 AM, Doradur said:

I think a refresh / respec at the start of every campaign is the obvious optimal solution that serves the interest of all players except the whales.¹

 

This, I really wish ACE would dump this permanent passive skill training.  To access the power of your passive skills you need a vessel etc. that has the correct quality etc. Players will already have to devote time and resources to a particular path (vessels, gear, disciplines) no matter what passive skills they have trained.  Campaign import level  will determine the (temporary) power level advantage of veteran players at the start of the campaign (e.g. no import you will be parity with new players), the only thing that permanent passive skill does is put new players at a disadvantage for all import levels, necessitating a catch-up mechanic (new players already have skill and social disadvantages anyways).

If you absolutely need players to commit to a particular class/role within a campaign have them commit skill points at the beginning of the campaign, and then give them some skill points during the campaign so they can alter their course a bit if needed.  VIP can still spend points in 2 different classes and races, you consolidate combat into the class trees (and only allow the combat choices to work while in a vessel of that class), and then everyone can have the same pool of points for crafting/harvesting/exploration, thus no power advantage and only flexibility.  Sure you might argue that there is less customization, but the real customization comes with all of the systems outside the passive training.  It just seems like this passive skill training is a vestige of older design, that just causes more issues than it is worth.

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On 9/22/2017 at 7:55 PM, mourne said:

If you can't even play the game without paying you can't win without paying.  But yeah, let's ***** about them not giving us enough for free.  People should be happy they can even play without a subscription in the first place.  Every MMO I can even think of can be "pay to win" and there isn't a **** thing devs can do about it.  I can go buy max level characters in any game I want.  I can go buy gold from gold sellers in any game I want.  This bandying about "P2W" about everything is garbage. 

I don't care what generation you personally are from.  If you couldn't read between the lines to comprehend what my point was, you're an idiot in any generation.  For what it's worth, I think you understood my point and are likely not an idiot.  I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just got your panties in a bunch over my snide remark about entitlement generations.  If you actually think that issue doesn't exist, our conversation is over.

I'd rather focus on the game issues than argue with someone that clearly has no idea what they are talking about.

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A long time ago, I brought up ACE's unique monetizing opportunity for MMOs, in their temporary CW system. They could charge a nominal amount for entering a Crow into any particular CW. You want alts in it? You pay for every one of them, every CW, with limited imports and exports. So you are constantly charged for having alts. You want to join longer CWs? Pay a bit more.

Make VIP yield free entrance into three simultaneous CWs.

What this would do for P2W issues, I'm not sure.

All signs point to them not going this direction, in part because of their fidelity to early Kickstarter advertising about "pay once, play forever." I think that revisiting the financial system is not unwarranted, because years have passed, and situations change. Kickstarter was only ever a general vision on every other front, I do not see why financial systems should be omitted from improvement.

"Pay once, play forever" - Allow all players to have permanent access to the EKs, not to CWs.

I'd pay ten dollars to enter a three-month CW or three dollars to enter a three-week CW, or whatever. I'd pay for VIP to be able to have the entrance fee waived. Somewhere monetarily in between subscription and pay once.

Could just be me, but it still seems like a great opportunity...

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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ACE said tombs will not be in game at start as I know so do not needed worry about it. If you are saying buying tomb is pay2win there are always some whales try to do it.  But there is no point worrying about it because there will be % effect for buying tomb for example if you buy 10 day tomb you will get 0,5 day effect so it will be useless in advanced skill trees. And you can always get friends instead of trying do everything as SOLO. I guess this game design for playing together not solo. Every MMO has alt problem there is no such thing to prevent it since whale can get another PC and IP for it so there is no direct solution except get more friends. Furthermore, alt account need to reach that tree before sell that tomb so they need a lot time to do it.

 

And I disagree for paying each campaign. Game motto was pay once play4ever so all buyers has to reach all content. They do not need to pay for reach content or enter CWs

Edited by Chaqaron

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1 hour ago, Chaqaron said:

And I disagree for paying each campaign. Game motto was pay once play4ever so all buyers has to reach all content. They do not need to pay for reach content or enter CWs

I figure a large parte of backers disagree too.
"Pay once play forever" is a fact, CW are definitively a part of the whole game.

Please, STOP thinking to rewrite for your convenience the agreement other players have with ACE.

Many thanks.

Edited by RikForFun

Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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Okay, CWs are part of the game, but we already know there will be limits to the number of CWs we can enroll in at any one time. So, lets give all players free access to precisely one CW at a time and then offer paying to enter additional ones?

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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2 hours ago, mctan said:

Okay, CWs are part of the game, but we already know there will be limits to the number of CWs we can enroll in at any one time. So, lets give all players free access to precisely one CW at a time and then offer paying to enter additional ones?

It only takes the VIP gate to make this work.  When you buy the game, you can enroll in a single CW at a time.  That technically, and probably for most people, is enough regardless.

VIP, you can enroll in more.  Heck, even compartmentalize a bit. Some worlds VIP only, others, No-VIP allowed.

At least if some of those options a try.  Who knows what will end up being the most popular, successful?

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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4 hours ago, mctan said:

Okay, CWs are part of the game, but we already know there will be limits to the number of CWs we can enroll in at any one time. So, lets give all players free access to precisely one CW at a time and then offer paying to enter additional ones?

VIP having additional CWs as a perk along with a low fee to buy additional CW access, be it they are VIP or not.

Would be interesting.

As is, I wonder if a single CW will be engaging/entertaining enough to keep people occupied or if spreading time across multiple will be necessary to keep people logging in and staying logged in.

Don't believe they've specified how it will even work now that we have one "character" with the crow system. They've made some decisions and pointed to lore as reasoning, I wonder how they will explain a spirit or whatever magically being on multiple planets potentially playing different races, genders, classes, etc. Makes little sense to me. Along with having access to the EK during active campaigns. Maybe I missed them talking about it somewhere.

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On 9/24/2017 at 5:53 PM, APE said:

VIP having additional CWs as a perk along with a low fee to buy additional CW access, be it they are VIP or not.

Would be interesting.

As is, I wonder if a single CW will be engaging/entertaining enough to keep people occupied or if spreading time across multiple will be necessary to keep people logging in and staying logged in.

Don't believe they've specified how it will even work now that we have one "character" with the crow system. They've made some decisions and pointed to lore as reasoning, I wonder how they will explain a spirit or whatever magically being on multiple planets potentially playing different races, genders, classes, etc. Makes little sense to me. Along with having access to the EK during active campaigns. Maybe I missed them talking about it somewhere.

That would reduce the value of the VIP system. It wouldn't be a good PR move either, the game is already getting an image of trying to milk the players out of every penny they can get. Wouldn't be wise to keep with that trend. 

The other issues I see arising (unless something has changed), is limiting non-VIP players to 1 CW than all those non-VIP players won't be able to be involved in the short PvP battleground style CWs and if the game doesn't have a large population (which this game doesn't seem like it will have) it may effect how good other CWs could be.

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On 9/25/2017 at 8:52 PM, ironarm said:

That would reduce the value of the VIP system. It wouldn't be a good PR move either, the game is already getting an image of trying to milk the players out of every penny they can get. Wouldn't be wise to keep with that trend. 

The other issues I see arising (unless something has changed), is limiting non-VIP players to 1 CW than all those non-VIP players won't be able to be involved in the short PvP battleground style CWs and if the game doesn't have a large population (which this game doesn't seem like it will have) it may effect how good other CWs could be.

I don't disagree, but I'd rather see some alternative ways to play and potentially pay that offer those willing to fork over cash for something special without it being a universal advantage.

As is, VIP and cash shop times to in-game advantage will exist. There isn't any way around that beyond ACE trying to sugarcoat it. Honest players/reviewers hopefully don't glaze over this aspect.

Anything ACE can do to decrease the power cash can provide along with still bringing in players with cash to burn would likely be in everyone's favor.

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