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ClockworkOrange

Tomes P2W Model

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38 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Not everyone has a lot of friends that have tomes waiting for them. Standard twinking is giving a buddy some starter gear and maybe a decent weapon so he can compete. These Tomes sound like they will have significantly more value then some random gear. Standard twinking is not sharing items that passively increase the strength permanently of a character. I do not know of any such example that I would consider "standard twinking".

Again lets use EVE as our comparison here. EVE lets you directly buy PLEX and use in game currency to sell and then buy skill injectors. Since Crowfall does not have an easy market system to do this, I expect the value of Tomes to be greater than the value of skill injectors on EVE.

So this catch up mechanic is for those with money or those with a large social group. Casual players without a guild (talking about guilds that go from game to game with known people) or friends are the ones who need the most help to "catch-up". With this system it doesn't sound like a great "catch-up" mechanic. I have 0 incentive to give a tome to "Random guy who just joined my guild and could quit in a week" as I would feel burned every time they quit and took my skills and resources with them.

Casual players without social groups will not consider this a great catch up mechanic. I understand that they can trade for things of value, but new players will need everything they have. They will not have some excess resource to trade for something that potentially could be worth a decent amount of real life money.

Personal experience.

In many theme park MMO's some instances are not level locked, with the mechanic to prevent easy farming being high level characters near a kill get zero XP.  So to push a new player up, either a second character or a new low level friend that needed a permanent XP boost, I would log onto a higher level character, and just sort of follow them around, throwing in heals between fights, and stepping in to prevent them dying if they accidently got in over their heads.

That was real player time, given to another real player, for permanent gain.

Casual players without social groups, that do not seek out social are going to HATE this game by default.  The whole idea of this game is to develop social interdependency, so if you're approaching this as a solo, antisocial player, you have picked the wrong game, that was never the audience.

If you look at my bartle score, you will notice that includes ME I am not a social person, and do not play games for social reasons, but am willing to overcome that natural tendency to participate in the killing and achieving.  

Guilds are going to need and want to recruit new players.  So instead of just giving a player a bunch of tomes, maybe they set up rules that once you have played with the guild for a week or so, then you get the bump.  Any help you give to a new player is always a time and asset risk.  Be pissy about it all you like, that's just the way risk/reward works. If your guild has enough guys, don't recruit and don't try to draw new players with free gifts.   Maybe you only give tomes as a guild to players who have committed to VIP.  If they plan on bailing, then just get them to replace the tomes they used.

That's your choice to make, there will be plenty of other guilds hungry enough for fresh blood to put up with giving away tomes.

You're also making a HUGE GIGANTIC assumption that ACE won't simply use this mechanic in the future, to preload new players with tomes, or simply add time in the bank. Todd already brought up the issue in relation to "basics", having to push players through them quickly so you can even use VIP.

The real life money you are talking about, at least as it relates to VIP players, translates into a 72 hour basic tome being worth 50c of VIP time.  That same tome would push a zero level into 4 nodes of three pips.

Catch up does not mean "Catch up and be equal immediately", it means that with work you can pull yourself up and eventually reach the same level in a shorter time than just waiting it out.

I really think you're making an argument of Misleading vividness.  

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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47 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

These Tomes sound like they will have significantly more value then some random gear.

Again lets use EVE as our comparison here. EVE lets you directly buy PLEX and use in game currency to sell and then buy skill injectors. Since Crowfall does not have an easy market system to do this, I expect the value of Tomes to be greater than the value of skill injectors on EVE.

Keep in mind that tomes are specific to different skill trees (notably unlike injectors in EVE).

Tomes like "Combat Basics" will be easy for any day 1 alt to churn out, only needed by new characters that have no training, and likely cheap. Tomes of "Great Melee" will require a large training investment to create or use (that's the fourth tier, meaning you need to get through 3 trees just to start on it), so they'll only be needed by highly trained endgame players, and will likely be very expensive.

There's room in this system for both cheap/low tier tomes you can hand out to noobs, and expensive/high tier tomes for veterans to chase after.

Edited by Avloren

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7 minutes ago, Avloren said:

Keep in mind that tomes are specific to different skill trees (notably unlike injectors in EVE).

Tomes like "Combat Basics" will be easy for any day 1 alt to churn out, only needed by new characters that have no training, and likely cheap. Tomes of "Great Melee" will require a large training investment to create or use (that's the fourth tier, meaning you need to get through 3 trees just to start on it), so they'll only be needed by highly trained endgame players, and will likely be very expensive.

There's room in this system for both cheap/low tier tomes you can hand out to noobs, and expensive/high tier tomes for veterans to chase after.

This is why I wonder what ACE considered "caught up" if Tomes are supposed to help new players catch up in training. If to them it is 25-50% of what a top trained player might have, I see them doing okay maybe if the tome cost isn't crazy and they are readily available. Beyond that, don't know. To me, caught up should be at least 75% in a given main role of some sort.

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20 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Personal experience.

I really think you're making an argument of Misleading vividness.  

I really do like you Krakken. I think we just disagree on Tomes and their usefulness. I think Tomes are a cash grab and a poor attempt at a catch up mechanic and at this point you know why. I understand your point of views and they are valid.

I do find it frustrating that forums have turned into "Straw Man", "Anecdotal Evidence".... You accused me of Anecdotal Evidence then proceeded to give me your personal experiences that contrast mine. Of course we are using anecdotal evidence, we are theorycrafting a video game based on other video games and personal experiences. There isn't some scholarly reference guide for this nerd crap we waste our days with.

That being said, good debating.

16 minutes ago, Avloren said:

Keep in mind that tomes are specific to different skill trees (notably unlike injectors in EVE).

Tomes like "Combat Basics" will be easy for any day 1 alt to churn out, only needed by new characters that have no training, and likely cheap. Tomes of "Great Melee" (that's the fourth tier, meaning you need to get through 3 trees just to start on it) will require a large training investment to create, will only be needed by highly trained endgame players, and will likely be very expensive.

There's room in this system for both cheap/low tier tomes you can hand out to noobs, and expensive/high tier tomes for veterans to chase after.

Fair point, but isn't ACE supposedly against ALTs? What account besides an ALT account would waste time creating tomes for Combat Basics?

I don't think the issue of being caught up is the first 72 hours of game play. I think its the other 6 months that the other character has on you. The only way you get some of that 6 month of tome training is by someone draining their own training. Again, this seems like a cash grab to me which will cause players to create ALT accounts just for tome farming.

 

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5 minutes ago, APE said:

This is why I wonder what ACE considered "caught up" if Tomes are supposed to help new players catch up in training. If to them it is 25-50% of what a top trained player might have, I see them doing okay maybe if the tome cost isn't crazy and they are readily available. Beyond that, don't know. To me, caught up should be at least 75% in a given main role of some sort.

Well the basic balance for combat as I understand it is.

1/3rd of power from gear.

1/3rd of power from passive training. 1/3 for each of race/class/profession.

1/3rd of power from personal skill. 

Now new player could theoretically get twinked all the way to fully 1/3 of equipment power. 

Using tomes, a new player could theoretically get twinked to 3/4 of 1/3 of training power with tomes efficiently. (assuming the diminishing returns make it prohibitive to go past 50% in any tree, and they take all nodes to 4 pips.

Personal skill, your on your own. get good.

So outside of personal skill, a new player could theoretically get pushed to 87.5% of gear and training power, before feeling the burn of diminishing returns beyond 50% of all skills.

Players that favor a specific race, will max that race out and crank tomes of all levels. Players that favor a class, same thing.

If anything, it's going to be easier to catch up than anyone thinks as it relates to race/class, a bit more problematic for the combat profession, and a real pain in the butt to find economy profession tomes.

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22 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

I really do like you Krakken. I think we just disagree on Tomes and their usefulness. I think Tomes are a cash grab and a poor attempt at a catch up mechanic and at this point you know why. I understand your point of views and they are valid.

I do find it frustrating that forums have turned into "Straw Man", "Anecdotal Evidence".... You accused me of Anecdotal Evidence then proceeded to give me your personal experiences that contrast mine. Of course we are using anecdotal evidence, we are theorycrafting a video game based on other video games and personal experiences. There isn't some scholarly reference guide for this nerd crap we waste our days with.

That being said, good debating.

Fair point, but isn't ACE supposedly against ALTs? What account besides an ALT account would waste time creating tomes for Combat Basics?

I don't think the issue of being caught up is the first 72 hours of game play. I think its the other 6 months that the other character has on you. The only way you get some of that 6 month of tome training is by someone draining their own training. Again, this seems like a cash grab to me which will cause players to create ALT accounts just for tome farming.

 

Yea, I like you too, and yea we disagree on this.  I often disagree rather strongly with some of the people I like the most.

At the risk of defending with misleading vividness, I think combat centered casuals are the kinds of players willing to buy VIP that will give up their own training. They may look at the insignificant boosts in the combat line, and judge that pumping out a few tomes to suit up will be better use of the days they have banked from being idle. They may value being able to play and have fun NOW, is worth not having better numbers in a future where they may not even be playing the game.

If I had no interest in learning multiple races, or classes, I would sell off my secondary race training ASAP for resources or the greater good of the guild. Same goes for economic skills I have no interest in. Heck, I may even have a potential interest in the future, I am willing to delay because I know for the next X months I won't be running it.

Not every VIP wants to do everything, but they may want the other leverage VIP gives, such as access to more worlds, or whatever other benefits are tied to VIP.  VIP isn't just about training, and there are going to be those that really don't care too much about it, especially since it takes so long to accomplish. They may prefer to sell ALL their training, just to get some gear they know they can use immediately.  

Dedicated crafters, once they have the race/class training they need for crafting, could easily crank out basic tomes in the race/class category.

But speculation is speculation.  I see a tool for a vibrant economy. In every single stock market transaction, both sides think they are winning for some reason. Long term thinkers don't really care too much about today's price, but are looking to the far future, while day traders are focused on the minute by minute, with no real concern about how the stock will be in a week, let along years out. Marketing experts for years never thought people would part with money for bottled water and balked at the notion.

Funny how people value different things and perceive gain in different ways. Tomes are for the achievers to by, any maybe for the killers and/or socializers to sell.

 

Also, there have been ZERO real indications ACE is against ALT's.  They have always said that they would "prefer" players to play one account, but have made no moves or suggestions they will do anything, or design anything, specifically around dealing with them.  (Much to my personal disappointment).

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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50 minutes ago, APE said:

This is why I wonder what ACE considered "caught up" if Tomes are supposed to help new players catch up in training. If to them it is 25-50% of what a top trained player might have, I see them doing okay maybe if the tome cost isn't crazy and they are readily available. Beyond that, don't know. To me, caught up should be at least 75% in a given main role of some sort.

 

39 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Fair point, but isn't ACE supposedly against ALTs? What account besides an ALT account would waste time creating tomes for Combat Basics?

I don't think the issue of being caught up is the first 72 hours of game play. I think its the other 6 months that the other character has on you. The only way you get some of that 6 month of tome training is by someone draining their own training. Again, this seems like a cash grab to me which will cause players to create ALT accounts just for tome farming.

Yeah, it will get progressively harder for the noob to catch up the closer he gets to the veterans. How much of a problem that really is depends, I think, on how valuable the advanced training is. How does a 50% trained noob compare to the 100% vet - what does an extra 3-6 months mean, practically speaking? If he went combat, does he have a chance 1v1 against the vet? If he went crafting, can he craft anything that's valuable in a market flooded with goods from 100% crafters? It's hard to say, yet.

I'm certain of one thing: alts will be very valuable in this new skill system. But that's always been the case, they were valuable in the old system too. I'm not sure if they've gotten more or less powerful.

On the one hand, two profession trains makes main accounts more versatile and alts a lot less essential. On the other hand, tomes grant alts a great deal of flexibility: they can still be dedicated crafters, but now they can also churn out tomes for immediate economic gain. They can even pay for their own VIP with tomes.

If ACE was planning to do something to kill alts, I don't think tomes are it.

Edited by Avloren

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7 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

So outside of personal skill, a new player could theoretically get pushed to 87.5% of gear and training power, before feeling the burn of diminishing returns beyond 50% of all skills.

If anything, it's going to be easier to catch up than anyone thinks as it relates to race/class, a bit more problematic for the combat profession, and a real pain in the butt to find economy profession tomes.

My concern is how long will it take a new player, theoretically, to actually obtain the resources needed to obtain gear/tomes (training) to reach whatever percent of what older players are running around in? Why won't people trading VIP and other cash shop items have a hold on the economy?

Twinking friends/alts is one thing, or helping out new guild members is organized guilds, but for the random players likely to make up a decent chunk of the population, especially on faction worlds, probably not going to be a quick/easy process.

Specifically speaking about new players, not vets and their alt armies, are Tomes and relying on the kindest of strangers the better model for new players to get into the game and "caught up?"

If new players are expected to buy the game, potentially pay for VIP, and then put in X amount of time/effort to do whatever task (likely not their main interest in the game) to get decent gear and tomes, might be hard to retain them or even get them to buy in initially. At least if they are selling it as a competitive game that is easy to hop into without the typical grind just to grind. We might not be killing rats, but mundane hollow activities can come in other forms. They've said power will be shallow, but gear and training both look to be typical vertical stacking like any other game. Maybe not lvl 1 vs 100 gap, but still significant enough to matter.

With so many games out and others coming that have low to no entry fee and a lack of pay for advantage, CF niche might be following other games that haven't learned what works.

Will be interesting to see how Camelot Unchained ends up as it seems like the closest competitor along with Ashes of Creation which is more of a western Black Desert. Can see potential CF players easily playing either of those as well.

All up in the air at this point, but if we have multiple quality games to choose from, such things as a hint of "P2W" might be what drags one down and lifts another up.

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53 minutes ago, APE said:

My concern is how long will it take a new player, theoretically, to actually obtain the resources needed to obtain gear/tomes (training) to reach whatever percent of what older players are running around in? Why won't people trading VIP and other cash shop items have a hold on the economy?

Twinking friends/alts is one thing, or helping out new guild members is organized guilds, but for the random players likely to make up a decent chunk of the population, especially on faction worlds, probably not going to be a quick/easy process.

Specifically speaking about new players, not vets and their alt armies, are Tomes and relying on the kindest of strangers the better model for new players to get into the game and "caught up?"

If new players are expected to buy the game, potentially pay for VIP, and then put in X amount of time/effort to do whatever task (likely not their main interest in the game) to get decent gear and tomes, might be hard to retain them or even get them to buy in initially. At least if they are selling it as a competitive game that is easy to hop into without the typical grind just to grind. We might not be killing rats, but mundane hollow activities can come in other forms. They've said power will be shallow, but gear and training both look to be typical vertical stacking like any other game. Maybe not lvl 1 vs 100 gap, but still significant enough to matter.

With so many games out and others coming that have low to no entry fee and a lack of pay for advantage, CF niche might be following other games that haven't learned what works.

Will be interesting to see how Camelot Unchained ends up as it seems like the closest competitor along with Ashes of Creation which is more of a western Black Desert. Can see potential CF players easily playing either of those as well.

All up in the air at this point, but if we have multiple quality games to choose from, such things as a hint of "P2W" might be what drags one down and lifts another up.

If that's your concern, you may have backed the wrong kind of game.  Long term MMO's have has this problem, only way way worse, for as long as I can remember. Looking at your complaints, it sounds a bit like you wish everyone could just be handed skills from the start, with ZERO progression or effort required to catch up.

The other games with level models, where if your even 1 or two "levels" behind, you could forget even trying to play with your friends.  The goal of the shallow power curve however makes it possible to play with friends from day one in CF, regardless of passive training.

If passive training/levels represented 95% of a characters power, through equipment and twinkling limits also based on the same "earned" XP, like it does in other MMO's you would be right. But with the shallow power curve, that all goes right out the window.

You could be right about the P2W being the difference, but I think you might preference on the other side of the coin.  The way the market looks, free to play with some slight P2W seems to breed more successful, popular, and profitable games than purist games that avoid it.

Not everyone is ideologically motivated. If people can spend a few more dollars, to have a bit more fun, they will.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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A few thoughts relevant to this thread.

First, I think that maybe in 10 years we're going to look back on the whole PvP MMO thing and shake our heads and wonder why we didn't get it.  I think that there's an inherent problem with the whole MMO leveling format when applied to a competitive, PvP game.  Every single PvP MMO has struggled with it.  I think that the answer is having PvP MMOs not be MMOs at all, with traditional leveling.  Rather, they should be more like MOBAs, where you have classes with skills you select, and you can make strategic decisions about loadouts and gear and such, but inherently everyone is on pretty even footing, and skill and tactics, not time played, decides matches.

Why keep playing such a game, then, with no treadmill to riiiiide to the top?  Competition, ladders and rankings, changing maps and victory conditions.  Honestly, I thought that Crowfall would be the closest thing to a MOBA/MMO PvP combination yet.  It may still be.

Second, on the discussion about free/P2W gaming vs subscription-based models, the problem with free games is that the developer will always be chasing new revenue streams.  That's why P2W becomes an issue - they have to sell you things you want, and cosmetics don't sell as well as things that are a little more "spicy."

The problem with subscription-based games is that you get less people who will play, because it's not free.

So the calculus for companies, obviously I guess, is whether they will make more $$$$ in the longrun with a monthly sub or with having more people play but nickel-and-diming them to death.

Me, I always prefer the sub model.  I like knowing what I'm paying for up front.

Edited by Hasil

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22 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

If that's your concern, you may have backed the wrong kind of game.  Long term MMO's have has this problem, only way way worse, for as long as I can remember. Looking at your complaints, it sounds a bit like you wish everyone could just be handed skills from the start, with ZERO progression or effort required to catch up.

Just because others have had problems doesn't mean CF has to follow. There are potential ways to avoid the same pitfalls.

I wouldn't mind a design where players could build themselves a kit per life, vessel, campaign, whatever.

Passive training is the one system the game could do without and not fall apart, IMO. Seems like traditional leveling and vertical stat gains wrapped up in a different package. I get the reasoning of why they are doing it and why players like it, but as training has little effort/risk involved, wish they'd at least keep cash out of it.

Don't have an issue with new players being expected to catch up and put in some work, but if it requires excessive busy work just because, why make it that way? If the power curve isn't very shallow and requires a decent amount of catch up, seems like ACE will have missed their own goal.

As for backing the wrong kind of game. I backed what they originally presented CF to be. Can't foresee them doing whatever down the line. Much of CF is still rather vague and unknown. Not sure anyone could easily say what "kind of game" it is. As of now, it isn't a game yet. Also backed CU and AoC, so no biggie to me. Might end up disliking them all. However, I didn't back a game system that allowed one to pay for direct stat gains, besides VIP.

The goal of the shallow power curve however makes it possible to play with friends from day one in CF, regardless of passive training.

That is the hope, but will be interesting to see what a more finished training and gear model looks like towards soft launch. Maybe 5.3 will bring us closer. If training for 6 months to a year still keeps the power curve shallow, awesome, but the training increments will have to be rather insignificant to keep it that way.

You could be right about the P2W being the difference, but I think you might preference on the other side of the coin.  The way the market looks, free to play with some slight P2W seems to breed more successful, popular, and profitable games than purist games that avoid it.

If it's just about success/profit, pretty sure they could do a lot of things to help that. It's their game and future, I have no real stake in any of it. Guess I hoped the focus was making a competitive PVP MMO built on player skill and effort, not how much extra cash they had. Again, why I point to the other 2 games also focusing on PVP but so far being against P2W and having mandatory subs. If only it wasn't so long for any of them to actually release.

 

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Personally I don't really mind VIPs having an advantage over non-paying players, in terms of skill training speed, more options for their character etc or whatever. Things I'd call 'indirect' advantages.

As long as that benefit stops at £12 a month and you can't gain any more power.

The moment a game allows you to throw more money at it, and become stronger (Archeage). Or sells things in the cash shop that give you a direct advantage in PvP (BDO). It's over.

Consumer trust is a very fragile thing, and you just don't custard with that - otherwise you've spent 5 years of your life crafting a game that will take 5 weeks to die.

Edited by xaine

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18 hours ago, Hasil said:

A few thoughts relevant to this thread.

First, I think that maybe in 10 years we're going to look back on the whole PvP MMO thing and shake our heads and wonder why we didn't get it.  I think that there's an inherent problem with the whole MMO leveling format when applied to a competitive, PvP game.  Every single PvP MMO has struggled with it.  I think that the answer is having PvP MMOs not be MMOs at all, with traditional leveling.  Rather, they should be more like MOBAs, where you have classes with skills you select, and you can make strategic decisions about loadouts and gear and such, but inherently everyone is on pretty even footing, and skill and tactics, not time played, decides matches.

Why keep playing such a game, then, with no treadmill to riiiiide to the top?  Competition, ladders and rankings, changing maps and victory conditions.  Honestly, I thought that Crowfall would be the closest thing to a MOBA/MMO PvP combination yet.  It may still be.

Second, on the discussion about free/P2W gaming vs subscription-based models, the problem with free games is that the developer will always be chasing new revenue streams.  That's why P2W becomes an issue - they have to sell you things you want, and cosmetics don't sell as well as things that are a little more "spicy."

The problem with subscription-based games is that you get less people who will play, because it's not free.

So the calculus for companies, obviously I guess, is whether they will make more $$$$ in the longrun with a monthly sub or with having more people play but nickel-and-diming them to death.

Me, I always prefer the sub model.  I like knowing what I'm paying for up front.

With a MOBA skill style, they still have the option with EK's, materials for buildings, relics, and all that sort of thing, you still have the ability to earn something long term, just nothing that can be used to influence a match/world heavily. 

Fortunately, with the systems they are building, they can actually make that change really easy.  Just have a way to erase skills as players enter a world, and build a way to hand out time as you enter the world. 

They are going to have to do something to "push people through the basics", so odds are the exact same mechanics could be used to hand out the time for quick passage through basics, will work just as well for building a full training tree out at the start of a campaign.

 

 

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Why include base stats in a time gated skill tree?

 

Player stats should come from Weapons, Armor, Abilities, and Buffs. Including base stats in a time gated skill tree will only increase imbalance. Every individual class should have a set of base stats that apply to everyone. Stat diversity should be attained through itemization and abilities. Arbitrarily giving someone +5% crit (example) simply because they’ve played the game longer makes no sense. On top of that, training the skill trees isn’t rewarding at all. Probably  because there is literally zero effort involved. 

 

Including power creep in a time gated skill tree is really the only design decision I don’t understand in this game. It’s like they felt the game had to have a convoluted skill tree just because it’s an MMO.

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21 hours ago, Hasil said:

...

First, I think that maybe in 10 years we're going to look back on the whole PvP MMO thing and shake our heads and wonder why we didn't get it.  I think that there's an inherent problem with the whole MMO leveling format when applied to a competitive, PvP game.  Every single PvP MMO has struggled with it.  I think that the answer is having PvP MMOs not be MMOs at all, with traditional leveling.  Rather, they should be more like MOBAs, where you have classes with skills you select, and you can make strategic decisions about loadouts and gear and such, but inherently everyone is on pretty even footing, and skill and tactics, not time played, decides matches.

...

I will agree that we'll shake our heads, but I perhaps not for the same reasons.  What is the priority?  Are devs making a MMORPG with PvP or are they making a PvP arena game with MMORPG elements?  You can use aspects of both, but you cannot have both fully at the same time--that is why arenas in other MMOs are so painfully artificial feeling (gear balanced, level balanced, combatant balanced, etc.).  ACE has said repeatedly that they are making a RPG.  If that is true, which I will admit I have wondered about from time to time, then we are supporting a MMORPG with PvP--as advertised--and not the other way around.  Therefore, if you are looking for a pure arena/MOBA style competitive PvP experience, CF is not the game for you.  If you, on the other hand, are looking for a MMORPG with an arena/MOBA competitive PvP influence/flavor, then you're in the right place.       


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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20 hours ago, xaine said:

The moment a game allows you to throw more money at it, and become stronger (Archeage). Or sells things in the cash shop that give you a direct advantage in PvP (BDO). It's over.

This is already planned.

Hence this thread.

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On 10/2/2017 at 6:39 PM, APE said:

This is already planned.

Hence this thread.

We'll see. They may test it, or tweak it, and launch isn't exactly around the corner.

I don't think they'll let the game go to poorly made socks over P2W.

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17 minutes ago, xaine said:

We'll see. They may test it, or tweak it, and launch isn't exactly around the corner.

I don't think they'll let the game go to poorly made socks over P2W.

We will see. This thread was created to discuss Tomes are their P2W characteristics.

Also, don't be so quick to assume they won't go to a P2W model. This is one of the first games that lets the gamer also become an investor in the game. If I had personally invested in this game, I would look for Crowfall to add as many revenue sources as possible (you will quickly reach P2W for revenue sources).

The investors and gamers don't exactly have the same goals in mind. For a while I kept asking why everyone was so worried about ACE making money, that is their responsibility and we shouldn't have to worry about it right? Then the light bulb hit, so many people care because they are investors. If ACE makes money, they make money. This isn't wrong, just something we aren't used to.

Edited by ClockworkOrange

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I think all MMO's are happy with paid alt accounts. That's additional revenue. They are in this to not only make a great game, but to also make money.

I see the tomes as a cool in game currency that will be used for bartering for items and such. 

i dont see these as being that big of an issue. Especially since they say they nerf the amount of time given to the player based on their progression in that skill tree.

I'd look at it this way..In one year how many skills am I going to train without the use of tomes? Now add in a tome here and there, is the added skill from tomes going to be significant? I doubt it, especially when compared to the life of my character and overall skill progression.

Will they maybe help catch me up in an area or get me over a hump so I can craft or harvest a bit better sure, but overall I'd think for most people its going to not be that significant.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Deernado

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20 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

We will see. This thread was created to discuss Tomes are their P2W characteristics.

Also, don't be so quick to assume they won't go to a P2W model. This is one of the first games that lets the gamer also become an investor in the game. If I had personally invested in this game, I would look for Crowfall to add as many revenue sources as possible (you will quickly reach P2W for revenue sources).

The investors and gamers don't exactly have the same goals in mind. For a while I kept asking why everyone was so worried about ACE making money, that is their responsibility and we shouldn't have to worry about it right? Then the light bulb hit, so many people care because they are investors. If ACE makes money, they make money. This isn't wrong, just something we aren't used to.

Funny (as in funny odd, not funny HaHa), but true.

Other games have had "investment" strategies, but they were always from outside channels, like building an account to high levels, and then selling that finished account off, gold selling, etc. I know of at least one person who considers owning zero day accounts as an investment because of the eventual training they will have.

As an investor I am concerned about the game being good, and profitable, and don't hold any ideological "best for the game" preferences outside of what I consider fun, or potentially profitable. 

If the most attractive model is skills per campaign, that's what I am for.  If the most entertainment would be given by raining resources from the sky and just watching players battle endlessly across the lands, that's what I'm for.

Some companies go way way way to far into the "profit at any price" model (EA), while others try way to hard to stick to their ideological design principles like it's a religion, (Vendetta Online, Naval Action), and end up making a sub par game in terms of fun for players.

There is a point when developers have to give up on making the game they think they want to play, and make the kind of game that enough people will play to allow the game to survive. I think ACE has a few ideological things they may have to compromise on if the game is going to be popular enough to survive.  

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If they can't make harvesting fun, fully 1/3rd of the professional game play, and upon which all crafting and equipment depends, nothing will inspire people to play or P2W the game.

If money gets you through the boring parts of the game faster, people will simply pay, provided the fun parts are fun enough to pay for.  If some consider that P2W, well that's their problem as far as I'm concerned.

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