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equus@shaw.ca

Pvp Doesnt Have To Mean Someone Needs To Lose.....

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In reading how objectives can be different in different worlds, and how the "rules" can change from world to world in response to new concepts, input, etc., I wonder if Crowfall by virtue of that willingness to embrace out of the box thinking might be the place that the following could work:

 

Imagine a world where two sides are competing for the same resources.  Those two sides will indeed struggle against each other as a result, thus the PVP.  Imagine however, that the resources are being used for two different purposes which may not be diametrically opposed.  One side might need resource "A" to accomplish their over-riding objective of building assets to control an influx of evil creatures in areas 1, 2, and 3 of the map.  The other side might need those same resources to construct a huge magical "machine" (a city itself might be the machine where individual structures are components of the final machine) that once constructed will purge the Evil presence of the land. 

 

Now, imagine that side one can achieve varying degrees of victory depending on how well they control the evil in areas 1, 2, and 3.  It doesn't need to be a simple all or nothing win/lose.  Further, imagine that they can do this 'irrespective' of whether side two successfully builds their magic city-machine or not.  Side two conversely can realize varying degrees of success by virtue of the progress made on their machine, irrespective of how well side one is controlling the evil in their areas of interest.  Make no mistake about it, the two sides are enemies as they are fighting each other for the same resources... they are doing so however for different end-game objectives so it is still possible for a win-win, even if one side is significantly more successful than the other.

 

The point being.... in a structure such as the above concept, the PVP crowd and the PVE crowd can both have their cake and eat it too.  Everyone can realize benefits from their efforts at the "end" of the game, and there can be greater benefits as a reward for greater results, which still provides motivation and competition.

 

A "from the hip" concept.....

 

Thoughts?

Edited by equus@shaw.ca

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To talk in board games, you want them to create something so incredibly out of the box and go beyond what we've scene before and implement asymmetric win conditions?

 

I love asymmetric gameplay. But theres a point where you're asking too much too soon for the scope of the game.

 

In a game with clearly defined win conditions, it would probably be better if we kept them fairly simple for now, having winners and losers isn't a bad thing.

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I would think the very definition of PvP would imply someone has to lose. There's going to be different rulesets where losing isn't as painful and losing is more painful yet winning is very rewarding.

 

I've deleted paragraphs of my post trying not to get banned in one post. ugh, moving on.

 

Ya know, MMOs are more like Candyland than any other board game right now. When GW2 and WoW Arena becomes the standard for Hardcore PvP on the internet, it's a sad day.

Edited by headlight

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Potato -

 

I don't disagree that the game needs to succeed in its design of "the basics" first and foremost before taking on what may be more avant-garde objectives or concepts.  I further would be the first to agree that win-win scenarios not need to be an option in "every" instance of the game... in fact, there should be worlds where this is most definitely not the case.  The fact that the game developers are proposing game worlds that reset and which have different rule-sets of sorts is the framework however that "could" support win/win scenarios periodically... the flexibility of the infrastructure is compelling!

 

Just trying to initiate some out of the box thinking where most of the other mmo's out there would not provide any opportunity to even consider such things....

 

Thanks!

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oh, and to clarify the topic .. perhaps it would have been better to suggest that both "sides" can win on a macro level.  In each individual player versus player fight it goes without saying that there will be a winner and a loser.

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Just trying to initiate some out of the box thinking where most of the other mmo's out there would not provide any opportunity to even consider such things....

 

You mean something where the same number of people could go into a campaign and take home some phat lewt?

 

It's called World of Warcraft. You should check it out.

 

Otherwise, the reason it doesn't exist is because Uncle Bob isn't happy with letting you stack up troops in Australia every turn while he just watches TV instead. Uncle Bob wants to win.

 

1win
verb \ˈwin\

: to achieve victory in a fight, contest, game, etc.

 

There is no victory if you didn't earn it. So you're going to sit there and lose but yet still say you win? If you want a participation sticker, I'll start CrowfallCompensationStickers.com and help you out there. But the very idea in winning is that someone has to lose. Just like the idea of darkness is the absence of light -- winning is the absence of losing.

Edited by headlight

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I don't see why they wouldn't try something like this... down the road. They say they are open to experiment on the system as they go forward.

 

I think the point is seeing something bigger than simply win/lose. Your objectives are what they are, mine are what they are. If I succeed, good for me. If you succeed, good for you. If we both succeed, or we both fail, great, as long as we had fun.

 

It would be hard as hell to get right, but just because something is difficult doesn't mean it's not worth doing. Heck, it usually means it is.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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"it is not enough for me to win. my enemies must lose"

Crushing other people hopes and dreams is what makes pvp fun. That being said, I wouldn't mind if they tried that on one of the servers. It could be fun, provided that resources are scarce and the side that loses in pvp have a really hard time collecting enough.

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Did we get linked to from /r/carebears? What's with all the whiney threads looking for My Little Pony Online?

Trust me when I say this. Carebears would MUCH rather the PvPers have a wincon to work towards. Otherwise, we don't have any reason whatsoever not to grief you into the dirt.

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If you don't give people something to strive for, they lose motivation.

 

This applies to both PvP and PvE.

 

This also applies to board games. I don't like to play Chess where we both move our pieces around with no real goal in mind. Same with co-op games. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose, but there is something we're striving for and whether we get/achieve it or not dictates in our minds whether we win/lose.

 

It could be "did we finally beat that first boss" ... "did we complete the level in under 5 minutes" ... "did no one die" ... "did we clear the entire level" ... "did we get something shiny".

 

What it is doesn't matter as long as it motivates the player(s) involved.

 

Let's say my motivation is "get something shiny" ... because I'm a loot-sweet pea ... then if I get that "shiny" regardless of whether I slayed some monster or it slayed me ... then I'm going to run straight into its mouth and die so I can get that shiny faster ... because I'm also impatient and want it right now.

 

Now, you can change this to have varying levels ... if I slay the monster, I get something "uber shiny" while if the monster slays me I get something "barely shiny" ... and if the monster and I fight to a standstill I get something "just shiny enough".

 

I think the OP just wants to get "something" instead of "nothing" if they "lose" ... which the rulesets we've been shown seem to support ... you just get "more" if you win ... so you have something to strive more ... "more".

 

Given that, I'm now motivated to drive you before, hear the lamentations of your women, and very happily get "more" for my win than you got for the loss I served you. :-)

Edited by Sebrent

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Winner and Loser are easy concepts to grasp; the devs shouldn't be afraid to hurt peoples feelings by labeling them as so. I blame Katy Perry and the Taylor Swift generation for this post.

Edited by Helix

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Is this from that new age everyone is a winner mentality?

*hands Checky a You Participated! Great Job! trophy.*

 

I actually agree with the Checkster here.  Something gets added when there are clear winners or losers.   Especially if both sides dust themselves off and move on without much drama or grief over the fight.

 

I'm aiming for PVE in the game yes, but more along the lines of fighting the Hunger and surviving the wild.


pixS8Wt.jpg


The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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My definition of winning is broader than others, apparently.

If it includes personal win conditions, I'm right there with you, but I don't expect any mechanical rewards.

 

Although, to be entirely fair, an option to make, say, 5 "Personal Victory Conditions" that get tracked without any special consideration mechanically, through drop-downs, that'd be pretty awesome.

 

Imagine the emergent gameplay that comes when someone becomes legendary, because every time he leaves the Eternal Kingdoms, he murders 100 Stoneborn. No rewards, aside from emergent gameplay and RP, just something that can be tracked, something that can become legendary, a way to make our mark on the world.

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