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Wayoun

Too Much Action?

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If a new player comes into Crowfall and continually gets ganked before they have a chance to learn the game will they continue to play?  Especially players who come into the game without already knowing someone who plays.  So far I've seen no scenario where a new player has a chance to experience the full range of activities (harvesting, mobs, etc) without the likelyhood of being continually killed by more experienced players with better gear and training.  Will Crowfall lose a lot of good players because they never get the chance to learn the system before they get thrown to the wolves?

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Nope I like MOBA's.  However this is not suppose to be a solely PvP game and if all you have are PvP players the game will not succeed.  There's a great video somewhere on this website about the balance of the type of players.

Edited by Wayoun

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To my understanding, there will be different bands of campaigns, some will be harder for a newcomer than others. The ones in the outer bands are expected to have more newcomer friendly features, like faction-based starting areas that are pretty difficult for non-faction to get to. This'll give them a place to start and not get demolished immediately. What you are describing sounds like the FFA maps, more like what Bloodbath is now. These types of worlds would certainly be a lot harder for a newbie to get into, but they are meant to appeal to a different type of player.

This is my understanding, I could be wrong. The current testing setup for the campaign worlds seems to be this way right now. 

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The beachhead is safe. The Ek's you make are unlisted with pvp off at the start.
There are things to fight in the beachhead to get you started. 

There has to be some effort from the new players as well. Right now this is a PRE Alpha, There is little handholding and no real intro experience. If people get turned off by this they will never last in the real game. 

So honestly, sorry to see them go, but thanks for the 70 bucks. Maybe they will come back once the game is launched and their more robust friends are having fun. 

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20 minutes ago, Wayoun said:

If a new player comes into Crowfall and continually gets ganked before they have a chance to learn the game will they continue to play?  Especially players who come into the game without already knowing someone who plays.  So far I've seen no scenario where a new player has a chance to experience the full range of activities (harvesting, mobs, etc) without the likelyhood of being continually killed by more experienced players with better gear and training.  Will Crowfall lose a lot of good players because they never get the chance to learn the system before they get thrown to the wolves?

You're doing it wrong. Don't join the wolves right away.  Learn to play in your EK.

Besides, I spent 2 hours this weekend on a bloodbath server, by myself, harvesting the full amount of export possible, without having to deal with a single player.

I also roamed tyranny for over an hour before running into another player.

Also, you have an EK, with all the mat's you need to make a white weapon and stock up on things before taking on a campaign.

Also, beachheads have plenty of room to get yourself suited up with a white weapon before heading out.

Also, look at PUBG.  There is zero expectation of anything but death in 99/100 games you play. 

If there is a problem, it's not an over abundance of FUN PvP.

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The short answer is yes. It's one of many reasons games like shadowbane and DFO collapsed population wise. However the rule set system should curb some of this. Players will start on the softer rule sets and eventually "graduate" to the harder, less welcoming ones.

Honestly I'm more concerned about the grind of the game and the cumbersome harvesting skill lines being a barrier for new players.

Edited by Helix

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39 minutes ago, Wayoun said:

If a new player comes into Crowfall and continually gets ganked before they have a chance to learn the game will they continue to play?  Especially players who come into the game without already knowing someone who plays.  So far I've seen no scenario where a new player has a chance to experience the full range of activities (harvesting, mobs, etc) without the likelyhood of being continually killed by more experienced players with better gear and training.  Will Crowfall lose a lot of good players because they never get the chance to learn the system before they get thrown to the wolves?

This is the nature of a hardcore PVP game. It drives players like me to it, but pushes casuals who do not like hardcore PVP away.

This is a throne war simulator. If Game of Thrones has taught the general masses anything, it is that throne wars are not pretty and expect to lose in ways deemed "unfair" to you.

Keep in mind this game does not have traditional PVE or "Quests". PVP makes up much of the day to day activity in game besides crafting/harvesting.

Edited by ClockworkOrange

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If a player comes into Crowfall and doesn't get killed they also have not had the full range of experiences.

The question is how long should they be guaranteed to survive? My answer is as long as they want to stay in their starter EK. Ace could make crafting a set of equipment part of the EK-based tutorial, if they wanted. I hope they just recommend it strongly.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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1 hour ago, Wayoun said:

If a new player comes into Crowfall and continually gets ganked before they have a chance to learn the game will they continue to play?  Especially players who come into the game without already knowing someone who plays.  So far I've seen no scenario where a new player has a chance to experience the full range of activities (harvesting, mobs, etc) without the likelyhood of being continually killed by more experienced players with better gear and training.  Will Crowfall lose a lot of good players because they never get the chance to learn the system before they get thrown to the wolves?

Don't leave the beach head until you're ready to fight. You can harvest and kill mobs in the beach head in complete safety. You can make advanced weapons and gear in the beach head as well. Passive training will be wiped come 5.3 removing veteran player advantage so that's a good time for new people to check out the game. 

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I understand the focus of the OP and although agree about concerns of CF "longevity" (We all want a winner here!) and the mainly opinion stated, is that people want play CF must understand CF (game is not aiming to be a commonly WoW clone or whatsoever!). 

As a PvP player (be it MMORPGs, MOBAs, FPS, et cetera...) i need be ready to conquer or be defeat! I always work to be better, given up is not an option! Believe is what a PvP player strives for!

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@Telonos @Helix Thanks for your responses. You seemed to have read the post and gave well thought out responses. 

For those who thought I was thinking of giving up thanks for the encouragement / ideas however I'm already set in this game and believe I'll be a powerhouse that will be untouchable by you PvP minded cannon fodder ;).  I'll admit that I've not checked out the EK yet (will now) and may not have realized all the potential.  I thought you could not harvest in the EKs.

 

Now back to my original goal.  It's my belief that the people reading these forums may have the ability to shape much of Crowfall's success as a game.  Those with the most experience at the start of the game will have the ability to shape the culture and experience within the game for years to come.  Since I want Crowfall to be a huge success I hope you'll consider these two scenarios.  Especially the PvPers.  Which is a better scenario? 

Scenario 1: A new 15 y/o gamer doesn't know the rules to follow and runs out into the big ol world too early.  There he finds an experienced player who he has no hope of defeating.  This player instead of taking one zero glory kill, and no economic gain decides to assist this obviously lost sole.  Six months down the road they're in the same guild and the new guy's a killer PvPer.

Scenario 2: New guy gets killed by every experienced player who gains nothing from it...  Six months later that guy's not playing.

Multiply this by 100 and add compounding interest.

 

In Shadowbane myself and my talented PvP friend used to run though areas where new player frequented and killed the talentless PvPers who tried to prey on the weak.  All the while leaving the obviously too weak guys to own devices.

 

I wonder if we can create in Crowfall a culture where those who are obviously too weak to pose a threat are left alone, helped, or protected.  Thereby providing newer players with a better initial experience while at the same time not tarnishing your name as one that preys on those beneath their skills.  One step farther would be that sub-par PvPers that do tarnish their names could be purposely hunted down by real PvPers.  I know a few who will be the hunters.  If you'd like to join them let me know.

 

Obviously there will be times and places in campaigns where this kind of altruism could be harmful to victory so not an option.  I just hope people will keep these ideas in mind.

 

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50 minutes ago, Wayoun said:

Scenario 1: A new 15 y/o gamer doesn't know the rules to follow and runs out into the big ol world too early.  There he finds an experienced player who he has no hope of defeating.  This player instead of taking one zero glory kill, and no economic gain decides to assist this obviously lost sole.  Six months down the road they're in the same guild and the new guy's a killer PvPer.

Scenario 2: New guy gets killed by every experienced player who gains nothing from it...  Six months later that guy's not playing.

Scenario 3: There are many scenarios that do not fall into your scenario. I understand what you are going for, but you must realize your scenarios are unrealistic. Currently in alpha I have a rule where I only attack those who have weapons. This is my only basic rule and I break it if I dislike that person. I will not have this rule in launch and here is why.

Survivals taught me about a wolf in sheep's clothing. People in survival games intentionally leave all their gear at home and go out harvesting while giving the impression of a new spawn. These players look just like your new spawn, but they are packed full of loot and the only way you find out is by killing them. For this reason alone, I will basically kill everyone I see because you have no idea what is in their backpack.

This game will also attract spys looking to befriend you. Pretending to be a new player is one of the best way to gain a guilds trust and get them to invite you in. They now have access to your comms, strategic plans and guild forums.

Scouts: By running around naked you are an effective scout. You can find other players and call back their location over comms, but run the risk of losing nothing. In CF, anyone who is not in your guild is your enemy. Treating it this way will help you achieve victory.

Full Loot PVP - Everyone at some point in their gaming career will learn not to trust people. Mine was in 7th grade when I played Ultima Online. A friend and myself trusted a guy we met named "BloodChild" (I know, seems obvious that we shouldn't of right. The worst part is the nice guild we were in even warned us to stay away from him). He helped us and let us live in his house and even use a chest in his house to store our stuff in. When we had saved enough money to afford our own house he robbed and banned us from his house.

....and now I trust no one.

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While I agree with the philosophy of helping the weaker ones, I do also think there should not be a reason, to run around and just think of every newbie as a little puppy that needs protection. If they need help, they can ask. If ppl start thinking they can get everything from somebody else, there will be ppl who abuse that. Let them figure out a bit of the obvious stuff for themselves, it's called letting go. As long as u don't overdo it (farming ppl with a certain name) and are ready to help, then there is nothing wrong with sometimes killing a newbie,or sbd who can't react due to a bad pc. how would u know and why should they not also experience frustration? it helps u grow, cause u need to let go as well.


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11 hours ago, Wayoun said:

If a new player comes into Crowfall and continually gets ganked before they have a chance to learn the game will they continue to play? 

If this happens, ACE and the player will have done something poorly.

ACE: Creating a decent introduction to the game, ideally through an in-game "forced" tutorial. EK being the obvious option, but some sort of 24-7 "Learning to Play Campaign" wouldn't be terrible either. Basics of gathering, crafting, combat, character building could be covered.

New Player: Forums, Youtube, Reddit, Twitch, Fan Sites - Likely to be plenty of info for someone interested or coming in. I have no sympathy for those that blindly purchase a product and then get upset that they don't know what to do or it isn't what they expected.

If things go well, there should be established EKs used as social/trade hubs that new players can visit. Meet other randoms, join a guild, learn how to play the game, etc. Maybe kind players looking to make long time buyers will hand out free gear to people?

As has been mentioned, less harsh campaigns like the faction based with built in teams would be a good start. Maybe there is some small "safe haven" to at least get a basic set of gear and supplies before skipping off into danger. Depends on how "survival" they want it to be.

6 hours ago, Wayoun said:

I wonder if we can create in Crowfall a culture where those who are obviously too weak to pose a threat are left alone, helped, or protected.  Thereby providing newer players with a better initial experience while at the same time not tarnishing your name as one that preys on those beneath their skills.  One step farther would be that sub-par PvPers that do tarnish their names could be purposely hunted down by real PvPers. 

I have no intention of randomly helping people out in the open CW. This isn't a game where you go out looking to join a PUG to run a dungeon. Be part of a group-guild-alliance or have some sense of what there is to do solo.

With campaigns having a win/lose condition, people are either friend or enemy. There is no time to coddle or blindly trust anyone. Someone you are kind to one second could be stabbing you in the back the next.

There are no "real" PVPers in such a setup. There is no evil gankers or victims. People are signing up to be in a competitive video game focused on winning, which means others have to lose.

I get what you are saying, but better to focus on people not being nasty to one another as "toxic" players seem to be something that drive folks away more than being killed in a game about killing. If anything, slay them, then point them in the right direction. Live (die) and learn. 

5 hours ago, ClockworkOrange said:

....and now I trust no one.

Exactly. Barely trust myself :ph34r:

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11 hours ago, Wayoun said:

Nope I like MOBA's.  However this is not suppose to be a solely PvP game and if all you have are PvP players the game will not succeed.  There's a great video somewhere on this website about the balance of the type of players.

I can success some solo pvp runs. All you need is turn down a bit ur ego and 2-3 out of 10 fights as outnumbered or even hard outnumbered can be very intertainment and enjoable. At the end some 1v1 or 1v2 for you will be easy

Also there are EKs with ur ruls

Also they can made some warnings at launch to not get on hard pvp campaignts for new players


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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I think Ape summed up my thoughts perfectly; will just add on that I hear what you are saying regarding culture, Wayoun. A game can be competitive and even cutthroat without being toxic.

There are ways to get newcomers the help and assistance they need with getting started without hand-holding during a competitive campaign though. There should definitely be some sort of training wheels mode that folks can opt into if that's what they want. I'm even ok with a required tutorial if it isn't too ridiculous. Honestly a big huge honking "WARNING" sign before entering into a campaign would also be a good idea, complete with the rulesets and tips regarding those rulesets (ie, when you log into a Free-for-all campaign, it should be stated "Hey, remember this is FFA and anything goes. TRUST NO ONE."

Edit: To clarify, I am referring to the finished open game here. Testing is another matter entirely and people should expect things to be barebones during a pre-alpha. It's kinda silly to expect otherwise, in my opinion.

Edited by Telonos

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