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Yakkus

Hunger in Crowfall

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Hallo, only my second post here, though I did want to get some first impressions out of the way. That the game is running on my machine at all is a minor miracle, just glad I can access the game :)

Whilst rambling across the downs in Tyranny siege, something that I initially didn't pay much attention to when looking into the game started to become quite a hindrance. And that was the hunger bar. I get why that may have been thought of for Crowfall in the first place, but I do think it's an anchor from the original concept of what the game was, and serves as a bit of an irritating and distracting chore from where the game seems to be heading. I should point out, crafting food, or having food per se in an MMO is a useful idea, in my opinion (buffs, for example). But the need to constantly replenish one's character is what ought to be relegated to survival games (again, my opinion), and sticks out a bit like a sore thumb.
I'm curious to hear what others have to say about this.

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I personally love the hunger system. It gives the game more depth in terms of gameplay. Originally I wanted to focus on farming (Huge fan of Harvest Moon), but I guess they scrapped that idea. Would have been cool to be able to provide food for the troops, by having your own farm.

I'm a huge fan of those types of mechanics, because it makes my character feel alive and not like some kind of glorified machine. I wish more games implemented those types of mechanics like the Sims, where you even have to take care of your hygiene and social life(Could be cool to have some sort of anti social trait), but it's not really popular with most people, because I guess most people don't like to play IRL simulators.

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At the moment the hunger system is really pointless. But in the future, once we get seasons in the campaigns the plan is to make food sparse in the winter so guilds and players would have to prepare for the end of the campaigns by having food storages. 

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I agree with the OP. I play survival games and often I enjoy the hunger mechanic. The problem is with any hunger mechanic it is a fine line of interesting versus chore. Currently in Crowfall I see it as a chore and something that adds nothing interesting to gameplay. New users already complain about having to chop a tree for 30 minutes to an hour to even build your first set of gear. If you are constantly having to eat during that time as well, it becomes an extra layer of annoyance.

On 10/3/2017 at 3:30 AM, XpCjU said:

At the moment the hunger system is really pointless. But in the future, once we get seasons in the campaigns the plan is to make food sparse in the winter so guilds and players would have to prepare for the end of the campaigns by having food storages. 

In the beginning I thought this way too. I kept telling myself, there will be other ways to acquire food. It will be more abundant and it won't be such a chore. You will stock up and have a plethora of food options. This in my opinion is the underlying issue:

If food is so abundant that it isn't hard to acquire, hunger plays no part in the game except for an annoyance factor. It will be so easy to get that only noobs and those who forget to grab it before they go out will have to deal with it. You will never be like "My life is better because I have 10 food". You will be like "Damn this game is annoying, I forgot food and now I am debuffed".

Now if food becomes scarce in the campaign to where you have to stock up for winter, the game will turn into this:

Guild Leader - "Alright guild I know everyone is preparing to defend our keep during this siege, but I need everyone to log off for the next 30 minutes until the siege starts as we simply can't afford to feed you during that time. Now everyone please log off to conserve food and come back in thirty minutes." Never design a system where you encourage a player to log out. If food is scarce, this is what ACE has done.

Spy Tells His Crew - "Guys they are low on food, we don't even need to attack them we can just start the siege and hold off on fighting".

While starving out the enemy always makes for an interesting point in books and movies, you have never had to live it in real time (or even semi-real video game time). 1 hour into starving your opponent out and you will begin to question your life decisions.

 

I am having a hard time seeing the scenario where food adds a positive element to the game. Crowfall is currently a chore to play (harvest/craft). I don't consider myself a harvester/crafter, but currently I find those systems to be unnecessarily tedious only for the RNG chance of failing your craft and wasting 30 minutes to an hour of your day. I do play survival games, so I am OK with harvesting/crafting being a part of the game and I typically have no problem doing it. I also like economies created out of entire player made goods, so I see the advantage to harvesting/crafting. Ultima Online did it quite well years ago.

Food just looks like another chore I have to engage in to get to the part of the game I want to play (PVP). Maybe I am wrong, but I think "Hunger" will be dropped from Crowfall at some point down the line because others will find this mechanic tedious.

Edited by ClockworkOrange

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I also don't understand why this mechanic is in the game. It's something that has been part of ACE's plans from the very beginning (or at least as far back as I can remember), and I've hated the idea ever since I heard about it. Maybe ACE has some as yet unrevealed plans to make this an interesting mechanic, but I've never played a game where it was anything but an annoying, monotonous time sink.

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Hmm... what if instead of individual, manually-tackled hunger, it was more of a resource? What if another resource was actually like... "townsfolk" or something? Or thralls? There are already thralls, which is why I mention this. Basically, NPCs as a resource. So that, you have some little fort, and maybe you can do fine without any NPCs, building on it and upgrading/repairing it, etc. But, you get a big fortress, and it's just not feasible for your player group to fix it up without extra manpower. So, you manage to acquire 200 townsfolk to help out with it. Well, your personal character is fine without food. Or rather, it's just understood that you eat trail rations all the time if nothing else, and any other food is just buff/bonuses. But, the TOWNSFOLK need food. They're not immortal crows, and to sustain them, they need food. They are like a big, flexibily-sized forge, and they need fuel to burn and get work done. So, you have to stockpile food in your outposts/forts in this hypothetical, and it gets used by them whenever they do stuff (I know... not 1:1 realistic simulation, as they'd eat food even when just sitting around, but I don't think simulation for simulation's sake is very useful).

With this system, you could still have hunger sieges, but it's an ACTUAL effect. Like "Hey, we ran out of food, so our townsfolk/laborers can't mass produce weapons and help us repair our walls." Players could still do these things, but that takes them away from active combat, and just makes the process slower-going, and/or the quantity of work they can tackle becomes smaller. Meh? Terrible idea? Decentish idea? Splendid idea?

'Cause yeah, I love to draw from simulation for cool ideas, but simulating things just to simulate things is always only cool when it's novel. Well, unless the game is just built around that simulation. Even then, though... only people who just happen to be enthusiasts for that kind of simulation are getting a thrill out of it. 7 days in, you're not really getting anything out of sheer simulation anymore. You toy with it, figure it out, then, in the context of the game, just do it the best way possible. Or consistently fail to do it the best way possible, and it's just now a chore. Like food. With food, you're not even simulating a process. It would be like putting in diseases that your characters just randomly contract, then die from. "Yay! We're simulating diseases!" But it's not meaningful simulation. The character cannot make choices regarding the simulation. Just like with sheer hunger. Your choice is "keep gathering and eating food, or be penalized." Being penalized is, by definition, bad, so your only choice is to always do the same thing: try to keep food on hand and avoid penalty.


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Even though it's a pre-alpha, I honestly don't see how this is going to add any dynamic gameplay experience in later development test phases. It's a survival game mechanic and not really a MMO mechanic. So I don't see how it really fits. Using it to "feed" NPC town people is just as annoying as having to feed your own character.

This mechanic is pretty boring how it is and how this kind of mechanic has been placed in other games, including survival games, is typically very linear and brain dead boring. It's nothing but an irritation.

If ACE wants to give us a survival mechanic, why not give us something that provides a subtle buff per number of hours we stay alive. That very tiny buff that adds up over time could literately be anything. That's more interesting than having to eat a piece of food just so we don't get debuffed. This kind of buff can be associated with minor disciples too so they are more interesting and provides more customization options for character builds. Also a way to give a character more passives without actually taking up passive slots.


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How about, gee, buying food from some vendor if you didn't harvest or grow or cook your own...   a huge segment of the economy in the CW will be about food too.   Don't trivialize a commodity everyone needs a constant supply of.  If foods give buff AND sate your hunger bar...   that is a vital thing you consume, a sink.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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The Crowfall concept always included some survival game elements - most importantly the idea of seasons in the CWs. Survival gets more difficult in Winter season, the npcs get stronger and turn to Hunger-consumed creatures, the resources become more scarce as the world gets closer to ending.

Right now other core systems like combat, siege, and character building have the development focus so we haven't seen much emphasis on it other than than the initial implementation of a food meter.  There is potential for many other systems like cooking, farming, camps, and survival training to be expanded in the future to add some interesting gameplay. Always loot the apples, Winter is coming ;)


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Food isn't a commodity in the game until ACE makes it one or sets a campaign with a rule set that does. Right now it's just a mechanic that has zero actual gameplay impact with how many apples you get just from chest farming the three outposts.

Also, nobody is ever going to willingly use buff food to fill a hunger bar nor is all food going to provide a buff either and if all food did provide a buff then the purpose of a hunger bar is pointless. You'll waste a resource just to fill a bar and not gain the full benefits of additional buff food consumption, unless they make it either stack or extend duration times.

Right now in the current state of the game it's a pointless mechanic and so is food. Yeah all of it might be worth looking at in the future but we don't exactly know how food items and the hunger bar system is really going to look like in Alpha, Beta, and even at launch. Things are probably going to change a lot. We've already seen a ton of them in other areas of the game. Until these things are more fleshed out where seasons take an important role in the gameplay and how that affects food supplies, we won't really know for sure.

Saying food is going to be important doesn't really give any kind of context.  I really would like to see more context on how food will affect gameplay. We don't even know exactly how long a season will last either nevermind how long the average campaign will be.

Try not to misunderstand me either. I don't want less features in the game, but rather the opposite: a lot more.


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We are asking for a Throne War simulator.
This is a distinctive trait of Crowall, so no wonder some mechanics are unheard in any other MMORPG.

During a war, you should not storm a castle if you can't feed your army.
Foraging, provision and alliance based on offering support for a siege could be a thing.

Chickens bar is here now because developer need to see how much need of food affects combact and resolve balancing issues. 
No need to say: "this is TESTING, not playing". 
To better understanding the meaning of chickens bar, we have just to wait.

P.S.
I'm not using the word "hunger" talking about food mechanic, since The Hunger is a main component of season mechanic ;)
 

 


Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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I think the food mechanic should stay. That said i think it still need some balancing, if i remember right if you go below 70% you get a big debuff, that is just insane. That is too small a window, that is probably why everyone thinks food is a chore. It is not a matter of not starving it becomes just micromanagement to always stay topped off.

Here it is: (Source)

  • Over 70% - Everything is normal as the character feels satiated
  • Less than 70% - natural Health and Mana regeneration turn off
  • Less than 30% - Stamina regeneration turns off and the player can no longer Sprint
  • Less than 10% - The player takes damage every 5 seconds until they hit 20% Health. This won’t kill you, but you will be pretty much stuck at 20% Health.

Hp regen and mana regen is not something you can ignore. So like i said it becomes stay above 70% to play the game instead of dont starve.

I would go with:

  • Over 50% - You are cool, go play the game.
  • 50% - Stamina Regen halved and can no longer sprint.
  • 25% - Health and Mana regen halved.
  • Less than 10% - The player takes damage every 5 seconds until they hit 20% Health. This won’t kill you, but you will be pretty much stuck at 20% Health.

IMO this is a more realistic. The debuffs start with the less problematic, none of the debuffs (except the last) means game over.  And the biggest point is that they start at 50% which is so much better than 70%.

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9 hours ago, RikForFun said:

To better understanding the meaning of chickens bar, we have just to wait.

This is pretty much what I was getting at but there isn't any point having a feature to test in the game when you get a million apples from chest farming alone at outposts and rarely get a low hunger bar because of it. Perhaps after 5.3 we might see more of an impact but the rate of which food is acquired from chest farming is ridiculous. Thankfully this isn't how it will be in future testing phases and at launch. We don't need food sources as readily available as the air we breath. It's just stupid.

ACE has probably gathered enough data on the hunger bar by now. So hopefully at some point after 5.3 they provide more of a significant hunger and food system than what we're currently testing. Cause right now it does nothing meaningfully towards gameplay. But then again, this is also a pre-alpha testing environment and with no campaign rule sets.

 

9 hours ago, RikForFun said:

During a war, you should not storm a castle if you can't feed your army.
Foraging, provision and alliance based on offering support for a siege could be a thing.

Hopefully we can see small towns in campaigns that can be captured by a faction and then have it's food stolen but not sieged for ownership. A part of war is not always about capturing a bunch of stuff or razing buildings but also the theft of resources of an enemy. So hopefully farms, small towns, villages, etc. can be raided for their food but not destroyed. It's an important part of conducting war. It would be some sort of value towards actual raiding tactics instead of just blindly conquering everything in sight. That's actually pretty boring of a concept and used in every single MMO. I certainly wouldn't spend guild resources on sieging anything smaller than a fort unless the cost is less than the gain.

I am not sure how often other guilds will provide food for an allied guild if food is going to be such a commodity and needed during winter seasons or during less food abundant times. Guilds may just horde their food for themselves and not risk selling their surplus of food to another guild because that could increase the risk of them going through their food supply faster either by consumption of the food or lost through player deaths. Same that can be said for raw crafting materials and surplus of gear.

As a player that use to play Albion Online, I can tell that these things may cause guilds to just straight up horde items away in a storage in some heavily guarded fort. Not saying it's a bad thing, but it doesn't mean guilds will share resources with one another that are allied. It never happened in Albion Online and that is an actual main feature of the game. So I doubt guilds will share or sell resources with one another if it means risking their stockpile of those items being quickly depleted.

Edited by entityofsin

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For players who never experienced the great apple famine of 2016 consider this...   no chests, 10 min chopping trees for every hour online and that is with apple nodes trained.   You guys never had it so good.   For someone with tree harvest skills I have all the apples...   the fact that you get yours artificially should make you pause.   Getting food may be the bane of a combat PvP accounts existence but that simply makes me smile, a big smile... 


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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9 hours ago, Frykka said:

For players who never experienced the great apple famine of 2016 consider this...   no chests, 10 min chopping trees for every hour online and that is with apple nodes trained.   You guys never had it so good.   For someone with tree harvest skills I have all the apples...   the fact that you get yours artificially should make you pause.   Getting food may be the bane of a combat PvP accounts existence but that simply makes me smile, a big smile... 

Yeah I didn't bother testing last year. So I wouldn't have known about this. Even during those times I could saw that it was artificial as well since it was in a testing environment. It might have been too punishing during that testing period. What did ACE say about it before the changed it? Can you link a video or post about that for us?

 

4 hours ago, chancellor said:

We need the hunger mechanic to make the zerg less effective.

Maybe it will. If they're moving in groups, chopping every tree they see down and cleaning out every single chest from every outpost they come across, they won't run out of food unless the food bar depletes faster than it does now; which everyone should realistically expect to see happen. This isn't counting any food they have on hand with them during this.

Food runs are going to be just as much of a thing as crafting mat runs. But I do hope that it will hinder zerging a little but not to a point where it completely kills the idea. Zerging tactics should have a place in this game just as much as any other tactic or stratagem.

I hope you aren't suggesting that large guilds (often called zerg guilds) should be punished for having a large number of players. It wouldn't really make much sense to me.

We really need an update on what ACE plans for this mechanic and with food in general. :/


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