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durenthal

State of the Knight 5.2.10 (Oct 2017)

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The change to the cost and dmg on the Knight KD/Bleed combos and to the stun combo made a big difference to my fully trained knight.  Now, I generally only run out of stamina when I have to block attacks when I get focused.  I am using a 0 PCM weapon, and have 3 PCM nodes trained.  I expect when 5.3 hits, PCM will once again be problematic for the first 6 months, but at least with the current numbers, there's light at the end of the training and crafting tunnel.

Knight dmg feels good - on my fully trained knight with an epic weapon made by our maxed-out guild blacksmith.  I can really do a number on squishy classes wearing leather armor if I can keep them in melee range.

The biggest problem the knight has is that all the ranged classes are more mobile than the knight, and our gap closers are on a longer cooldown than the ranged classes' dodge cooldowns, and most particularly, that Chain Pull doesn't work.  It hits, and 90% of the time in 5.2.10 it doesn't pull the target at all.  10% of the time it pulls them partway but immediately rubberbands them back to their starting position.  

Comparing Knight to Myrmidon, Champion, and Templar in turn:

Myrm hits harder than knight, has the same problem on net pull that the knight has on chain pull, and requires the character to spend too much time managing the berserk state and mitigating the crash.   Myrm and Knight feel roughly analogous to me in terms of effectiveness.

Champion has incredible survivability from ultimate warrior heals (edit and especially third wind), and has 3 ways to become invulnerable (C, UW1, UW2), making him tankier than the tank classes at the moment.  He does good dps - more than myrm and knight.  Negatives are that his attacks feel clunky and he has recently gotten a bug with UW that prevents him from attacking when he triggers it.

Templar - amazing area control.  The "parry any nearby attack and combo it into an AE knockdown that hit harder than any knight power" ability is ridiculously overpowered.  Templar damage is better than knight and myrm, and templar survivability is the best in the game bar none.  Templar has two bugs right now, both of which work it its favor: execute sometimes hits twice instead of once, and sometimes the templar goes into permanent parry mode, parrying every attack, and offering the AE KD/dmg after each.   Templar is far and away the stronger class at the moment, and I feel the parry/knockdown is the biggest issue with that.

 

All that said, if Knight's chain pull worked as intended, I would be happy playing the knight as my main going forward.   I would really like to see the "dodge pip removal" power worked into chain pull rather than being a separate power (it does jack for dmg, requires you to block or 3LMB before becoming available, and takes a really precious power bar slot, so it's incredibly hard to justify slotting at present).

So Knight is in a better place than it was in June.  I'll post another update when 5.3 hits live and the devs have had a chance to patch any problems it introduces.

 

Edited by durenthal

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Dodgepip removal from the knight should come into play, and if anything the amount of CC the knight brings to the table should placed on the table as well as a factor that plays into the fact that Knights are strong, very strong.  With the chain working they are capable of becomming unkiteable, and thus a counter to all ranged classes.  So when fixing the Chain please also keep this in mind.

 

That being said I’d also love to see the Chain work! 

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glad to see some positive changes on knight. hope my 1.2 advanced pcm weapon on myrm will burn with wipe

myrm will be good with pcm fix, berserker fix (bugs and something what already been suggested way too many times) and net

all melee have problems with panel slots also coz switching in combat are terrible

 

ps. templar isnt only tank and area control =) 1.5k hits from execute wont agree. and this is not double hit summary =)

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my problem with the knight design: currently his cooldowns are all very long compared to other equivalent powers. also lack of impact or interest utility.

e.g. pursuit vs censure/bull rush, chain pull vs net, shockwave vs radiant sweep, shield stun vs colossus smash, shield bash vs parry couterattack etc

If they truly want to embrace 'stamina knight' - radically reduce or remove the lengthly cooldowns and instead let the knight dicate their powers by  stamina [and the long telegraphs]

or the 'hidden pip' that is tied to LMB, RMB big hits and the unlocking of the shield bash power.

Like how say the duelist and templar typically function.

Edited by Tinnis

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20 hours ago, durenthal said:

I can really do a number on squishy classes wearing leather armor if I can keep them in melee range.

The biggest problem the knight has is that all the ranged classes are more mobile than the knight, and our gap closers are on a longer cooldown than the ranged classes' dodge cooldowns

I guess you miss the entire point of class dynamics. Squishy classes -generally- have higher mobility then tanky meat shields. Its one of the oldest trade offs in every game i have ever played. 

And like you said, the knight has one of the few abilities that can stop the dodge movements....his one weakness. Making it easier and dummy proof to use may not be the direction to go. 

 

Although, to be fair, the chain DOES need to be fixed. Its been broken for months. And i think people will be swarming to the race/class combos that have the blinks and fire-scoots by a large degree so it may have to be addressed in another way. 

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13 hours ago, Tinnis said:

e.g. pursuit vs censure/bull rush, chain pull vs net, shockwave vs radiant sweep, shield stun vs colossus smash, shield bash vs parry couterattack etc

if you compare to myrmi

pursuit - faster, more character control while charging

chain pull - sign. need some debuff on it or less CD for better utility to fix lack of mobility

shockwave is better for TF. it does MORE damage and pull multiple enemy to knight if they fix bugs. currently - yes, bugged knockdown is better. but myrmidon lose character control for 3 seconds

shield stun is much, much more faster. colossus smash is almost uncontrolled sometimes. I even reported it early

and do not forget anytime block for CC immun, no LMB cost, better weapon/disciplines access and viable races, shield (broken, but I hope it will get fixed soon), possible closer to mobility class.

 

the problem is copy-past from current ready mechanics. late rework can be very helpfull for alot of classes to make em more unique

knight was first. standard archetype. then they add myrmidon (pull -> root, same kit but updated and new mechanic) and then templar (everything better but harder block) and broke/nerf every single ideas they bring to him except whirlwind....bla bla bla

 

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I would argue Bull Rush is better than Pursuit actually, it feels less spastic to me at least.
However both of these are a joke to land compared to the ease with which I can hit a Templar's Censure.
I haven't played a Knight seriously for quite awhile, and do somewhat regret it. I try to keep a good rotation of all the classes that interest me but due to inherent bugs and issues have been spending less time with the Knight, Champion and Myrmidon.

Chain Pull and Net combos(both the Pull and the Charge) are both very buggy and annoying.

That Knight's Shield Block and Templar's Parry provide the same amount of Damage Reduction is a little bit frustrating to me, especially combined with the Counter-Attack Templar's have access to vs the Elemental Reflect of a Knight. I would love to get some variety with being able to use either ability on both a Templar or a Knight. 


The changes to Stamina Costs did help alleviate the struggle the Knight was facing with regards to PCM issues but that was only one of several issues the Knight currently finds itself mired in.

As it is Knight feels very...lame...compared to a Templar. Not conceptually but performance wise it falls behind. Almost everything a Knight can bring to a fight a Templar can as well, with additional features to boot. Some Knights fairly along in their training do do quite well for themselves but the class itself IS still suffering. 


One thing I've always thought might be interesting would be widening the hitbox of a Knight in Block stance allowing them to Block/Cover more ground for themselves and their team. 


*
Another thing that needs to be considered IMO is the Shield Disciplines and how they interact with Block efficiency.
Secutor SUBTRACTS -.5 Big Hit Block efficiency whereas others ADD Big Hit Block efficiency... Molon Labe is +8 and Numbness is +5 (from Shield Fighter and Master of Shields)
*
Can someone explain why that is and if it's intentional?

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Until chain/net pull are fixed it'll be hard to evaluate Knight/Myrm. Those two abilities are the great equalizers vs. ranged. 

I want to see Knights doing this again (start at 7:39):

 

Edited by blazzen

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more detailed cooldown break down
 
K pursuit [30s] [slow travel, painful aim, can be cc interupted]
vs T censure [9s] [faster movement and leap over. no resource cost]
vs M bull rush [9s] [drag and knock up utility]

K chain pull [24s] ["pull" and 4s daze...]
vs M net [10s] [pull/teleport/keep at range and 8s root utility]
 
K shockwave [30s] [knight knockdown - end of 3 part combo]
vs T radiant sweep [8s requires pip. quicker 2 part combo]

K shield stun [30s] first part gated by 23s.
vs M colossus smash [9s]

K shield bash [5s, hidden pip from x3 lmb or rmb big hit]
vs T parry couterattack [n/a]


p.s. also because of the "fixed time" nature of dodge pip regeneration

see https://community.crowfall.com/topic/17125-dodge-pips-cooldowns-are-a-lie/

what that means is:

you could remove someone's dodge pips with shield bash...

and then they regenerate one dodge pip a second later [instead of 10s] and dodge away


also if you compare the [in combat] regen rates of knight stamina and myrm fury...

https://community.crowfall.com/topic/17707-they-are-stamina-guys-t-blair/?do=findComment&comment=355582

they look basically the same...so at this point why not just give the knight fury and let them sprint, harvest or use racial stealth etc like a normal class

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Started playing Knight a bit more after this write up. Tinnis hits the nail on the head with the following CD issues. I found some interesting things. Knight feels almost laughable to me right now, and not in a good way.

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 9:51 AM, Tinnis said:

more detailed cooldown break down
 
K pursuit [30s] [slow travel, painful aim, can be cc interupted]
vs T censure [9s] [faster movement and leap over. no resource cost]
vs M bull rush [9s] [drag and knock up utility]

K chain pull [24s] ["pull" and 4s daze...]
vs M net [10s] [pull/teleport/keep at range and 8s root utility]
 
K shockwave [30s] [knight knockdown - end of 3 part combo]
vs T radiant sweep [8s requires pip. quicker 2 part combo]

K shield stun [30s] first part gated by 23s.
vs M colossus smash [9s]

K shield bash [5s, hidden pip from x3 lmb or rmb big hit]
vs T parry couterattack [n/a]

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:42 PM, durenthal said:

I expect when 5.3 hits, PCM will once again be problematic for the first 6 months, but at least with the current numbers, there's light at the end of the training and crafting tunnel.

Knight dmg feels good - on my fully trained knight with an epic weapon made by our maxed-out guild blacksmith. 

 

I disagree with these sentences for a few reasons.

I am still quite worried about the Knight's place in 5.3 because of the CD/Damage/Block disparity, especially with the introduction of Cleric which has a Block that Heals their team... Templar can maintain their Parry indefinitely so long as they take damage to recharge it...when a Knight starts blocking there is a reason for it, to try and eke out a bit more life for themselves or comrades (with Cleric that part goes obsolete... why have a Knight Block for you when a Cleric could and Heal you at the same time?) or to try and reflect some Fire/Electric/Frost? damage.

Templar Parries because they are taking damage and enemies are nearby...
A Knight Blocking will run out of Stamina if they take any decent damage while a Templar sits there and Heals while dealing damage to any in Range...


Also...Weapon Damage on a Knight apparently barely matters aside from the Basic Attack and Shield Reflect! 

You see it's not the Sword the makes the Knight dangerous but rather their Shield! 8-}

I am not sure what *needs* to be done to *fix* the Knight.
Perhaps...(just wanting to provoke more discussion and thought, from players and builders)
Block mitigations could be increased?
All damage types could be reflected?
Blocking Knights could get a wider hitbox in order to better protect their team?
Knight Passive 'Second Wind' could apply to entire group?
Give Knight access to Destroyer/Runescarred Gladiator Disciplines (with Legio being phased out these Discs would only be for Champs...and Knights have a 'Second Wind' already! Both Disciplines seem in line with Knight kit and one could argue Runescarred for Myrmidon as well but I am getting off topic)

In groups I feel like I contribute so much more on a Templar than a Knight currently... more damage, more healing, more pressure.
Playing Champ or Myrm the damage is much higher, Myrm Ranged Net has <1/2 the CD of Chain Pull even if it did work.

Edited by Scorn

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also the damage that a templar does via a counterattack (or execute or anything) is a 100% damage spreadheal in a 5 man group with devotion up

[devotion can heal ~20% damage dealt]

so if i hit someone for 1,000 damage [single target] that will heal self/group for 20% = 200 hp each = 200*5 = 1,000 healing

and then throw in some AoE damage on that counterattack....good value for both self tanking and minor group sustain :)

p.s. druids can block literally forever, not that block is terrible useful compared to mobility and assassin/recon countering will only make that worse. a cleric blocking with say field surgeon's 'noble purpose' and eminently punchable's 'hit me' {+half giant bloodline] will probably also be infinite too ;p

Edited by Tinnis

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p.s. i'd love it if scimtiar druid got something like templar devotion that heals self/group based on their damage output, rather than the pathetic single target ~250 hp green orb spawns on unknown % and timer....[no where near often enough]

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