Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Undeadfred

Action Harvesting, and defeating harvesting bots (Dev video included)

Recommended Posts

In the first 10 minutes of the video you can get a pretty good idea of what Action Harvesting is.

The greatest benefit I see to this system is that it is active. To get peak efficiency you need to aim at specific weak spots located on the node, in addition to you need to manage a resource that generates with hits. This complexity makes it harder for a bot to simulate (more so aiming at the weak spots). I would like like to see this emphasized even more, and consider keeping weak spot procs at or near 100% to maintain the active nature of gathering. 

If managing pips correctly and hitting the "Weak spots" gives you 100% efficacy in mining, then just left clicking should grant only a fraction of that. The hope would be that it forces out mindless bots that just gather resources, it keeps the Player driven economy controlled by players.

 

So my question to the Devs

Was this a consideration in making this system?

Do you think this system could benefit in more complexity for the sake of keeping the bots at bay, and increasing player interaction in gathering?

Here is the video I'm referring too.

 

Edited by Undeadfred
Re-embedded video

I'm Right 98% of the time. Who cares about the other 3%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, srathor said:

Defeating harvesting bots is simple. You murder them.

Games where bots are a problem all have an underlying factor, they are not murderable. 

Like EvE?


I'm Right 98% of the time. Who cares about the other 3%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bots do try to run, but the real reason bots can survive in Open World pvp games is the the world is so large, and there isn't always peak players.

Also those who run the Bots often do protect them. I remember in Old school wow the wars that would happen between the farmers who ran the bots and those trying to kick them off the server that would happen in Western Plague lands.

You will always have some levels of Gold Farmers, but if you can force out the bots you hurt their profitability (and impact) tremendously.


I'm Right 98% of the time. Who cares about the other 3%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really like the direction they are going with this. The complexity makes it more interesting and gives incentives for creating a dedicated harvester with variety & options for min / max-ing...i.e. disciplines, tools, consumables, skills, skill trees,... (*is clothing in the works?)

From a "dedicated" harvester point of view (i.e...someone that intends to build vessel specifically for harvesting and forgoe combat - except what is needed for killing resource mobs such as skinning)...  the bottom line is how much they bring home at the end of a day's work. Whatever it takes to maximize efficiency is what the meta will be.

The variety & flavor of the mechanics gives some choices when things get dull. Let's be frank though, harvesting is just a dull, mindless, repetitive task, that some people, myself included, really enjoy. Having spent thousands of hours harvesting in games like Vanguard, EQ2, and other games (never botting - although I did plenty of dual boxing) there's no way to avoid it. But the choices ACE are presenting is way better than pressing "F" by a country mile.

 

P.S. Edited the most of the crappy grammar...

 

Edited by Cordite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Undeadfred said:

Bots do try to run, but the real reason bots can survive in Open World pvp games is the the world is so large, and there isn't always peak players.

Also those who run the Bots often do protect them. I remember in Old school wow the wars that would happen between the farmers who ran the bots and those trying to kick them off the server that would happen in Western Plague lands.

You will always have some levels of Gold Farmers, but if you can force out the bots you hurt their profitability (and impact) tremendously.

You're missing some things about the game design.

  1. Harvesting makes noise, lots of it, so picking up on where bots are harvesting so you can kill them is going to be easy.
  2. Nodes don't respawn quickly, so any bot just standing around waiting for more nodes to show up is not going to be efficient compared to real players.
  3. Doobers drop randomly around the node, so in addition to recognizing nodes, they will also have to be taught to pick up.
  4. Tools break regularly, requiring a re-equip and bringing several with you.
  5. Stamina runs out, and consumes chicken tickers, so they bot will also have to eat, and possibly gather food.
  6. Items 4 and 5 mean that gold farmer bots are going to be loaded with extra goodies to loot over and above what they harvest.
  7. Death = equipment decay.  Any hunting of bots will result in bots cost of operations going up.
  8. And finally.  To get exports, you have to win the campaigns by participating in the conquest aspect of the game. Bots may be useful in gathering materials, but it will still take real players to get that material into export.

Of all the game designs I have seen, adding in this active harvesting has made this one of the harder if not hardest models to build a bot for.  Personally I look forward to seeing bots in the world trying to harvest.  

Nice fat honey ants those things will be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of MMOs have come out over the years and a lot of devs have said their game doesn't have a lot of bots in it. Crowfall is the only one where I feel like there are multiple layers of game design that make it difficult for RMT companies to burn the in-game economy.

I just hope ACE doesn't put in some kind of refining mechanic for materials. Like taking 3 Tier 1 to make 1 Tier 2 and 3 Tier 2 to make 1 Tier 3 and so on. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad considering everything else is very anti-bot. I guess we'll have to wait and see after launch.


OS_Sig3.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think many things remain to be seen such as the size of the map, and how how that correlates with the availability of resources, and how likely traffic of enemy players is to interrupt resource gathering in off peak times, but you certainly touched on some good points.

"Doobers drop randomly around the node, so in addition to recognizing nodes, they will also have to be taught to pick up."

This is a good point, I imagine it will hurt bot efficiency greatly

Also bots aren't just used by sweat shops in china. They're used by unscrupulous guilds looking to gain an advantage. Guilds that might not win outright but certainly will contribute enough to a victory to take a large fraction of those resources home. Even if they don't that resources that can be used in that campaign.

I will conceded though that this is perhaps the most unfriendly mmo to bot in, and that's a good thing. I hope the design as is, will make botting unprofitable, but should it prove not to be we have everything in place to turn a few knobs and render botting extinct.

Edited by Undeadfred

I'm Right 98% of the time. Who cares about the other 3%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand your concerns, but I think as people have pointed out, Bots will be fun targets to hunt down and murder. They have no real safe place, and I doubt many people will trade real life money for a few sticks or lumps of rock. Will be interesting to see if it happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saying bots will be totally non-existent I am always cautious about, what you can do with a bot these days if you know what you doing is quite amazing, but it will most certainly be harsh (though the weak spot thing is NOT one that contribute to that really, ever heard of headshotting aimbots in FPS games? yeah give you bot one of those and it will hit weakspots way more reliably than any human can). What Krakken pointed out though yeah does seem to me to be some of the major factors as well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Gummiel said:

Saying bots will be totally non-existent I am always cautious about, what you can do with a bot these days if you know what you doing is quite amazing, but it will most certainly be harsh (though the weak spot thing is NOT one that contribute to that really, ever heard of headshotting aimbots in FPS games? yeah give you bot one of those and it will hit weakspots way more reliably than any human can). What Krakken pointed out though yeah does seem to me to be some of the major factors as well

True enough, there is no magic bullet.

The trick to so keep piling on things that make it increasingly difficult to manage, to the point where even if you do it, it's not really worth it.

Think of slices of swiss cheese.  You have many holes in a single slice, but if you rotate and stack a bunch of slices together, even though there are spots that have less thick blockers, there are in fact no way's through the cheese.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

True enough, there is no magic bullet.

The trick to so keep piling on things that make it increasingly difficult to manage, to the point where even if you do it, it's not really worth it.

Think of slices of swiss cheese.  You have many holes in a single slice, but if you rotate and stack a bunch of slices together, even though there are spots that have less thick blockers, there are in fact no way's through the cheese.

 

hmm... interesting comparison xD

thinking about it though, the fact that CF is a relatively niche game alone is a way that makes it harder for the gold sellers at least to thrive, since the lower player base compared to the big mainstream MMO's, means a lower potential customer group for them to, and the ppl that do come to niche games, tend to care more about the developers as well, making them less likely to buy from gold sellers in the first place).

 

Another interesting point that all the things that really help combat the bots, are things that add to the experience as well for legit players, where msot other games have to balance to benefit of combating bots, vs the inconvenience it creates for the legit players

Edited by Gummiel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gummiel said:

hmm... interesting comparison xD

thinking about it though, the fact that CF is a relatively niche game alone is a way that makes it harder for the gold sellers at least to thrive, since the lower player base compared to the big mainstream MMO's, means a lower potential customer group for them to, and the ppl that do come to niche games, tend to care more about the developers as well, making them less likely to buy from gold sellers in the first place).

 

Another interesting point that all the things that really help combat the bots, are things that add to the experience as well for legit players, where msot other games have to balance to benefit of combating bots, vs the inconvenience it creates for the legit players

It's an old airline standard way of looking at aircraft operations safety, which has also been adapted/adopted for engineering, healthcare and computer systems security.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model

It's a very rational approach to failure prevention in complex problems.  Don't try to solve all your problems with a single solution, build a slice that covers a few and then see where the holes still are. If you have an incident, evaluate which process has the biggest hole in it, or the one easiest or most effective to correct, sometimes at two or three layers, and change that process to remove that hole.

In the case of bots, it's NEVER going to be just one thing that keeps them out, it's going to be layers of gameplay mechanics, and player interactions, that will prevent them from being a nuisance.

 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't even see the point of bots in the first place.  There is no auction house, you have to start from scratch when going into a new campaign which is a new world where resources and harvesting locations will change rapidly so there are no efficient farming routes like there are in other MMO's.  Anyone trying to farm resources would literally have to just play the game and all non-vaulted resources get lost the moment the campaign ends so it's going to be extremely hard to hoard up enough valuable resources to interest other players enough to want to pay money for them.

You would have to play through a several month campaign just to hopefully get the chance (if you win) to take some resources with you and then hope that you find a player dumb enough to pay you a few bucks for them.  That is not a reliable way for traditional gold farmers to make any kind of money.

The only thing I could possibly see people selling for cash would be valuable manufactured stuff (valuable weapons, armor sets or maybe plots of land for EK's) but in order to get those in the first place you would need to invest a lot of time in the game, and those won't sell for nearly as much as in other MMO's due to the fact that they will break in time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You will be able to bot in CF.  Im pretty sure that someone can write a program to play the mini game for harvesting.  Once you have that, all you have to do is rent some space in the Dregs from the zerg guild running it.  Then you take your Dregs resources and sell them to the players only playing in the higher bands.

Niche games have botters and aiming programs.  I played Mechwarrior Online and that is a very niche game with a limited player base.  There was an aiming program that could snipe people and there were players using it.

I think the solution is to kill botters and everyone else who is red to you.  That and making the embargo bank a physical location that you have to travel to and control if you want to export.  Another slice of the swiss cheese.  Make an alliance or bend the knee to get your goods to the embargo bank.


Obsidian-ForumSignature.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Killing bots is fun?  Seems like a waste of time but if killing people that have no way or desire to kill you is fun we are looking for different games.  I don't want bots but I am looking for good competitive pvp while most are looking for roflstomp in zergs.  What happened to gaming?  So sad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/30/2017 at 11:05 PM, Talizar said:

Killing bots is fun?  Seems like a waste of time but if killing people that have no way or desire to kill you is fun we are looking for different games.  I don't want bots but I am looking for good competitive pvp while most are looking for roflstomp in zergs.  What happened to gaming?  So sad.

When is free loot not fun? When is killing cheaters not fun?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/30/2017 at 10:05 PM, Talizar said:

Killing bots is fun?  Seems like a waste of time but if killing people that have no way or desire to kill you is fun we are looking for different games.  I don't want bots but I am looking for good competitive pvp while most are looking for roflstomp in zergs*.  What happened to gaming?  So sad.

*Citation needed.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/1/2017 at 8:51 AM, KrakkenSmacken said:

*Citation needed.

 

Go to any big pvp type game and curiously there tends to be 1 to 3 large guilds who roll over everyone.  When good people leave your guild they end up over there because they roll.  People want the easy way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...