Toadwart

How will tanks play the role of "tank" in Crowfall?

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Let's start by looking at the wikipedia definition of the tank role:

A tank (also known as a meat shield) is a style of character in gaming, tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. 

"Tanking" occurs when the unit is intended to be the one taking damage (typically by being dangerous or detrimental, or using a game mechanic that forces it to be targeted), and secondly, to ensure that they can survive this damage through sheer health points or mitigation.

 

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I am somewhat concerned that the tank archetype is just a tank in name only in Crowfall.

How will tanks in Crowfall ensure that they are the targets of the enemy player?

No game portrayed the pvp tank better than Warhammer Online, IMO. Warhammer gave tanks skills like Guard (take 50% of targeted players incoming damage for them) Taunt (target takes 30% more damage from you until they hit you 3x) Challenge (cone AoE, targets do 30% less damage to targets other than yourself until they hit you 3x) and the Tank archetype was the one with 90% of the CC abilities. Other archetypes had 1-2 CC's at most.

Crowfall, really hasnt given the tank archetype any of these skills to force or greatly encourage enemy players to target the tank. So why should they? Obviously the tanks damage is not so great as to be a reason to target the tank over anyone else.

Crowfall isn't a PvE based game either, so tanks wont be fufilling the tank role there.

Will Crowfall "Tanks" just be a tank in name only? I dont see anyway that the tank archetype can actually be played like a tank instead of just a Mdps.

How do you think tanks will play out in Crowfall?

 

Edited by Toadwart

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I think this will be solved through adding more disciples that grant abilities which do the things you're mentioning.

Everything is so basic right now it's pretty hard to tell.

Good that someone pointed this out!

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Possibly, but im stuck on TBlair's "Minimum Viable Skills" design philosophy.

Tanking skills dont exist in the minimum set. This would lead you to believe that they do not think they are necessary to play the tank role.

 

What i see in the Crowfall Tank design is damage prevention through block, stats, ect. But if Tanks do not have skills to force/encourage being targets, or crazy CC abilities or stupid high damage (any one of these)...why would they be priority targets?

In fact, they become low priority targets because they do not have stupid high damage or crazy CC ...and they are harder to kill.

The exact opposite of what you want a tank archetype to be.

Edited by Toadwart

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Ah man, I wish I could remember how the Warhammer Blackguard's played. I had a ton of fun pvp'ing with one. IIRC the Ironbreaker was the best flat out tank.

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1 hour ago, Toadwart said:

No game portrayed the pvp tank better than Warhammer Online, IMO. Warhammer gave tanks skills like Guard (take 50% of targeted players incoming damage for them) Taunt (target takes 30% more damage from you until they hit you 3x) Challenge (cone AoE, targets do 30% less damage to targets other than yourself until they hit you 3x) and the Tank archetype was the one with 90% of the CC abilities. Other archetypes had 1-2 CC's at most.

Okay, now i reaaaally wanna see these powers in game. They sound awesome and i cant see why not. I would only change it from hits to damage.

I might even play as a tank sometimes if they give me that kind of field control.

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I almost forgot:

Hold the line : You focus your defenses against enemy fire, increasing your chances to dodge and disrupt by X% for X SECONDS. You will also defend all allies behind you, up to X FEET away, increasing their chances to dodge and disrupt by X% as long as they remain at your back. Allies may have this effect stacked on them up to 3 times.This effect will end if you break your concentration, or run out of action points.)

 

Warhammer Online treated tanks brilliantly. They provided the tools to pvp and support as a tank, not as a heavily armed brawler.

Edited by Toadwart

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33 minutes ago, Toadwart said:

I almost forgot:

Hold the line : You focus your defenses against enemy fire, increasing your chances to dodge and disrupt by X% for X SECONDS. You will also defend all allies behind you, up to X FEET away, increasing their chances to dodge and disrupt by X% as long as they remain at your back. Allies may have this effect stacked on them up to 3 times.This effect will end if you break your concentration, or run out of action points.)

 

Warhammer Online treated tanks brilliantly. They provided the tools to pvp and support as a tank, not as a heavily armed brawler.

Oh man, hold the line was almost OP when you needed to block an entrance. It was a must have for defending keeps.

Crowfall is a different game but with similar ideas. I haven't messed with the CF Knight so I can't contribute much to the thread. "Guard" would seem like a great addition though..maybe as a discipline. Would CF mechanics even accomodate a guard like ability (a single target buff/dmg split or is everything a group buff?)

Edited by Cordite

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"Hold the Line" was the best tanking skill implementation I've seen in a siege type pvp game. Made it possible for a smaller group to defend against a larger group using a choke point. Something like that could definitely fit into Crowfall's combat - maybe we'll see it when directionals come online.

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5 hours ago, Toadwart said:

Warhammer Online treated tanks brilliantly. They provided the tools to pvp and support as a tank, not as a heavily armed brawler.

WAR treated all roles well. Despite the overall game issues and OP state of same classes, was some of the best MMO PVP I've experienced.

Really hope some of the diverse yet "balanced" design from DAoC and WAR end up in Camelot Unchained. One thing MJ seems to do well is class design.

CF might get there are some point but for now seems to be another every class is self contained trying to out DPS everyone else. Not a lot of "roles." A bunch of different flavors of DPS works too but lacks the role dependency that I enjoy.

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6 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

Okay, now i reaaaally wanna see these powers in game. They sound awesome and i cant see why not. I would only change it from hits to damage.

I might even play as a tank sometimes if they give me that kind of field control.

Warhammer Online was a brilliant game in that regard. Should be mentioned that all the healers (and I think most dps's as well) had similar opposite skills as well, dont really remember the names of the skills, but were something like when you use did everyone else would do 30% less dmg to you, unless you hit them back yourself, so yeah not something you could use against what you were currently attacking yourself, but amazing to either escape, or use on other targets during big fights

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*sigh* makes me rly want to have played a game like that :c

because my pc is still kinda poorly made socksty , i haven't done any real cf pvp ,but from what the skills offer and i could observe the pvp seems to be fairly hunting and focused oriented. if there would be a possibility to offer tanks more influence on the battlefield and thus open up the strategy and reaction creation, it would be rly super mega awesome.

But then we shall have simplified sets (as pointed out before) ,so I kinda doubt that sth like this will be sth we see in the earlier stages of the game. maybe later on a variation of some kind ? would be rly cool.

shouldn't there be options to manipulate the whole system like that? i mean, if they set up cf for what they want to achieve atm, they should be able to change up some code later so that it will do sth similar like in war,no?

besides dmg and dmg migation and some cc, what options are there?

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13 minutes ago, FloTS09 said:

*sigh* makes me rly want to have played a game like that :c

because my pc is still kinda poorly made socksty , i haven't done any real cf pvp ,but from what the skills offer and i could observe the pvp seems to be fairly hunting and focused oriented. if there would be a possibility to offer tanks more influence on the battlefield and thus open up the strategy and reaction creation, it would be rly super mega awesome.

But then we shall have simplified sets (as pointed out before) ,so I kinda doubt that sth like this will be sth we see in the earlier stages of the game. maybe later on a variation of some kind ? would be rly cool.

shouldn't there be options to manipulate the whole system like that? i mean, if they set up cf for what they want to achieve atm, they should be able to change up some code later so that it will do sth similar like in war,no?

besides dmg and dmg migation and some cc, what options are there?

Talking about it makes me want to paly it again now too yeah, but AFAIK there are no servers anymore, so that is one of the MMO's that is actually dead for real, not just semi-dead "dead"

That said giving a flat taunt and de-taunt to tanks and dps/healers as part of base kit, would be quite dangerous in CF I think, due to the disciplines mainly, as you could pretty much turn a tank into a full blown dps or vice versus with the right disciplines, having a taunt and de-taunt on some disciplines them selves that work like War, could be amazing I think

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Don't worry, my friends... I will be your shield.

Depending on the class and potential subs thereof, they could probably accomplish this a number of ways.  Damage in itself seems a bit extreme since there are Damage Dealers built for that, but it could be part of a formula for something else.

Tanks essentially soak and mitigate damage; their purpose is to protect their group.  So there could be a sort of "cover" mechanic similar to Final Fantasy games or even a large shield via Overwatch.  "Body Guard:  You are under the watchful gaze of a Knight.  Damage is reduced by 25%" or something.  Maybe a soul link mechanic ala Warlocks/ Headhunter Trolls on WoW where damage is shared and split.  Maybe even a growing shield effect that increases every time a tank deals damage and spreads to nearby group members.  Perhaps even being heal for the Templar.  Or a mixture.  Something that makes them a priority threat since they're just too annoying if played well to not take down.  But with their own defenses decreasing for every buff they choose to turn on and give to others, as their attention is then split.  Which will make the cleric useful in trying to keep them up as well, while being protected.  A fully armored Knight only focused on its own defense could last a long time and be a low priority threat.  But implementing the above could have some interesting elements while also making them easier to kill and a priority target, while also potentially giving an additional synergy to Cleric and Druid.  Old Warcraft III Paladin auras could be a part of it, as well.  Just making them a "There's the tank -- cut off the head of the snake and the rest will grow limp" kind of threat if they're a team player and boost their party members enough that it's most efficient to try and burst you.

 

If you notice you have their attention, then trying to stay alive is key.  You'd have to know what buffs to drop for your own survival, but keep an eye on the life of your allies as well and if they need your protection again.  As a whole, if I'm not the first to fall, then I don't feel that I've been a good tank.  Some sort of sacrifice Ultimate or something where I can instantly take myself out in exchange for fully healing or providing a nice shield to my allies might be interesting for a full tank build (with it being more effective if I had more health to give up).  Or intercept where I give them part of my HP.  I still remember Divine intervention with fondness.

 

Though I have my tank spirit aroused from the new Overwatch Video:  

 

Edited by Sindothyx

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Mass and physics I think used to be more of thing and I think it should make a comeback (seems like discussion of it diminished after we went to FPS style combat).  If you look at an RTS like Total War Warhammer, having high armor is important but also the mass to stand your ground and resist the push of the enemy charge.  In my opinion, an exciting way to handle tanking is to make tank-type characters have increased mass--like the knight currently has while blocking (of course, you have to make that mean something through design).   Line up these tanks at a choke point, give them the ability to mitigate damage, and skillful players and teams will tap into their usefulness.  

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War hammer online:

Class powers

Private server


CU has both interesting general systems [see especially: 'disruption' where you can choose to focus on 'disruption damage' instead of 'health damage' to interrupt and punish ability use of your enemies] and specific tank ideas that sound exciting!

[e.g. the lightning and hammer based Mjölnir heavy fighter charging himself up as a 'magnet' to pull projectiles and attacks out of the air towards him etc]

Edited by Tinnis

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Looking forward to playing this game, but while you wait, but you can indeed either roll back the years or trying warhammer for the first time Return of reckoning been running for a while.  Hope i havent broken any rules posting that!

Edited by Faef

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One way to do it would be for the Tanks to have a lot of CC, but then every class in this game has CC, there is so much CC everywhere, so that has pretty much rendered the Knight as a class useless.

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4 hours ago, Faef said:

Looking forward to playing this game, but while you wait, but you can indeed either roll back the years or trying warhammer for the first time Return of reckoning been running for a while.  Hope i havent broken any rules posting that!

well if you broke the rules the Tinnis did so before you, but yeah went and checked it out, totally forgot how I just can't stand playing hard tab-target anymore though, after having played  so many MMO's with at least soft targeting if not actual aiming, I just can't go back to tab-target now :/

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This game isn't about forming 5 man parties to go fight some boss mob at the end of a dungeon, it's about mass PvP warfare. With that in mind, I think the "Tank" role should shift to a "heavy melee" role. If a Rogue/Light Melee character is a glass cannon, the heavy melee character is a tough, armored fighter with decent DPS and some crowd control thrown in for good measure. The idea is to have a melee damage dealer who can stay in the front lines of battle without instantly exploding to AoE spam. 

A Heavy Melee has:

High HP pools.

Access to Mail or Plate Armor

A way to reliably do sustained damage in melee range.

A way to mitigate or otherwise account for lots of incoming damage.

When we're dealing with battles which are potentially as large as 100v100, it doesn't make sense to balance or design classes around a 5-man dungeon party, or even a 5-man pvp team. 

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21 minutes ago, soulein said:

This game isn't about forming 5 man parties to go fight some boss mob at the end of a dungeon, it's about mass PvP warfare. With that in mind, I think the "Tank" role should shift to a "heavy melee" role. If a Rogue/Light Melee character is a glass cannon, the heavy melee character is a tough, armored fighter with decent DPS and some crowd control thrown in for good measure. The idea is to have a melee damage dealer who can stay in the front lines of battle without instantly exploding to AoE spam. 

A Heavy Melee has:

High HP pools.

Access to Mail or Plate Armor

A way to reliably do sustained damage in melee range.

A way to mitigate or otherwise account for lots of incoming damage.

When we're dealing with battles which are potentially as large as 100v100, it doesn't make sense to balance or design classes around a 5-man dungeon party, or even a 5-man pvp team. 

It would be easy to design the knight around small and large scale. No reason to do one or the other. Simply give it a passive which lets it’s defensive stats scale based on how many enemies are around them (like overwhelming odds) up to a cap. The current ability kit for the knight isn’t bad for what it is (outside of maybe C).

I agree with moving from rigid predefined roles (tanks, assassins). I liked gw2 ‘s way of defining them as heavies, mediums,and lights.

Edited by izkimar

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