Toadwart

How will tanks play the role of "tank" in Crowfall?

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Just now, izkimar said:

It would be easy to design the knight around small and large scale. No reason to do one or the other. Simply give it a passive which lets it’s defensive stats scale based on how many enemies are around them (like overwhelming odds) up to a cap. The current ability kit for the knight isn’t bad for what it is (outside of maybe C).

I agree with moving from rigid predefined roles (tanks, assassins). I liked gw2 ‘s way of defining them as heavies, mediums,and lights.

Yeah, Guild Wars 2 did a great job with that. I'm not really a fan with how AoE happy mass combat became in that game, but the general concept of the Warrior and Guardian were pretty similar to what I'd like to see happen with "heavy melee" in Crowfall.

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41 minutes ago, soulein said:

This game isn't about forming 5 man parties to go fight some boss mob at the end of a dungeon, it's about mass PvP warfare. With that in mind, I think the "Tank" role should shift to a "heavy melee" role. If a Rogue/Light Melee character is a glass cannon, the heavy melee character is a tough, armored fighter with decent DPS and some crowd control thrown in for good measure. The idea is to have a melee damage dealer who can stay in the front lines of battle without instantly exploding to AoE spam. 

A Heavy Melee has:

High HP pools.

Access to Mail or Plate Armor

A way to reliably do sustained damage in melee range.

A way to mitigate or otherwise account for lots of incoming damage.

When we're dealing with battles which are potentially as large as 100v100, it doesn't make sense to balance or design classes around a 5-man dungeon party, or even a 5-man pvp team. 

I think you have a good idea of what the tank should be. Too often I hear that tanks need to just absorb damage and be "tanky" and I personally think that has no business in Crowfall as it leads to a class that will be ignored and not played. I used to try to make the Knight viable with suggestions, but with the Classic Trinity concept of a tank and Blaire's Stam Knight concept, I realized no one wanted this to be a Knight I wanted to play.

Right now we have a slow tank that can't force anyone to attack him. This leads to:

  • Tanks can't kill anybody because they can easily run
    • If I do chase someone down, I will run out of stamina when I catch him so I won't be able to use abilities. (Stam Knight)
  • Tanks can't run from anyone
  • There is no reason I should ever attack a tank unless he is the last target
  • I will not bring a Tank in a roaming PVP group because he is too slow and the group will have to wait for him
  • I will not bring a tank in a siege as other classes would provide more utility
  • Tank will only be beneficial in odd situations - Like the defense of a tight corridor
    • This situational play style isn't enough to promote playing a class. They become rarely useful.
  • Try to think of realistic situations where you are happy your teammate is a Knight.
    • The only one that comes to mind is when I am running from a losing battle. I can rest assured that the Knight is the easiest one for the enemy to pick off based on his slower movement speed.

I really think the root of this problem is movement speed which should be equalized across the classes. The reason to not equalize the movement speeds would be an alternative movement system like mounts. Based on Blaire's answer to my "When Will Mounts be in the Game?" which was basically never or way after release, we need to address this now.

Most fights will be around the map. This leads to the faster classes running away/chasing down the enemy and the slower classes getting outrun (dying or not finishing their kills).

PVP roaming groups will be annoying. Joe plays a Knight so nobody wants him in the PVP roaming group. When you play with Joe you have to stop every 5 minutes to wait for Joe to catch up. If you are far from Joe and need help, you will have a hard time getting it cause Joe is slow. Anytime this roaming group encounters a fight where they have more numbers, Joe will play little to no part in the engagement. The enemy will try to run and only the fast classes will have a chance at taking out the retreating enemy. At best Joe might get to watch his teammates take out a couple enemies from afar.

This is a PVP focused game. It is time to start developing it with an understanding that the focus is PVP and making better PVP combat is priority number 1.

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3 hours ago, soulein said:

This game isn't about forming 5 man parties to go fight some boss mob at the end of a dungeon, it's about mass PvP warfare. With that in mind, I think the "Tank" role should shift to a "heavy melee" role. If a Rogue/Light Melee character is a glass cannon, the heavy melee character is a tough, armored fighter with decent DPS and some crowd control thrown in for good measure. The idea is to have a melee damage dealer who can stay in the front lines of battle without instantly exploding to AoE spam. 

A Heavy Melee has:

High HP pools.

Access to Mail or Plate Armor

A way to reliably do sustained damage in melee range.

A way to mitigate or otherwise account for lots of incoming damage.

When we're dealing with battles which are potentially as large as 100v100, it doesn't make sense to balance or design classes around a 5-man dungeon party, or even a 5-man pvp team. 

Well, it seems you didnt really read much of the thread.

Warhammer Online has as big or bigger fights than Crowfall will. Tanks were extremely important in large battles 100+ as they were in small battles by using skills that were explained in the first post.

This thread is about how the tank archetype can actually play as a tank, it currently cannot and should either have the name changed to heavy melee ( because they are literally nothing more than poor mdps) or brawler.

Every single class can wear plate armor if they choose in Crowfall, so Im not seeing an advantage there.

Maybe you might spend time looking at the tank skills presented in the beginning of the thread or familiarize yourself with the massive battles of Warhammer Online to get a better idea of what the thread adresses, its hardly a 5 man pve tank thats being questioned. Its about an archetype that can be played as the name "tank"suggests in small or large PvP battles...its already been proven to work and be fufilling in other games.

Who needs 2 versions of mdps?

Mdps barley have a spot at all in large battles as it is.

Edited by Toadwart

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1 hour ago, ClockworkOrange said:

I think you have a good idea of what the tank should be. Too often I hear that tanks need to just absorb damage and be "tanky" and I personally think that has no business in Crowfall as it leads to a class that will be ignored and not played. I used to try to make the Knight viable with suggestions, but with the Classic Trinity concept of a tank and Blaire's Stam Knight concept, I realized no one wanted this to be a Knight I wanted to play.

Right now we have a slow tank that can't force anyone to attack him. This leads to:

  • Tanks can't kill anybody because they can easily run
    • If I do chase someone down, I will run out of stamina when I catch him so I won't be able to use abilities. (Stam Knight)
  • Tanks can't run from anyone
  • There is no reason I should ever attack a tank unless he is the last target
  • I will not bring a Tank in a roaming PVP group because he is too slow and the group will have to wait for him
  • I will not bring a tank in a siege as other classes would provide more utility
  • Tank will only be beneficial in odd situations - Like the defense of a tight corridor
    • This situational play style isn't enough to promote playing a class. They become rarely useful.
  • Try to think of realistic situations where you are happy your teammate is a Knight.
    • The only one that comes to mind is when I am running from a losing battle. I can rest assured that the Knight is the easiest one for the enemy to pick off based on his slower movement speed.

I really think the root of this problem is movement speed which should be equalized across the classes. The reason to not equalize the movement speeds would be an alternative movement system like mounts. Based on Blaire's answer to my "When Will Mounts be in the Game?" which was basically never or way after release, we need to address this now.

Most fights will be around the map. This leads to the faster classes running away/chasing down the enemy and the slower classes getting outrun (dying or not finishing their kills).

PVP roaming groups will be annoying. Joe plays a Knight so nobody wants him in the PVP roaming group. When you play with Joe you have to stop every 5 minutes to wait for Joe to catch up. If you are far from Joe and need help, you will have a hard time getting it cause Joe is slow. Anytime this roaming group encounters a fight where they have more numbers, Joe will play little to no part in the engagement. The enemy will try to run and only the fast classes will have a chance at taking out the retreating enemy. At best Joe might get to watch his teammates take out a couple enemies from afar.

This is a PVP focused game. It is time to start developing it with an understanding that the focus is PVP and making better PVP combat is priority number 1.

Blair has responded to this in the past, saying that Tanks (specifically the Knight) are meant to defend "fixed point objectives" like forts or castles. The only thing a Knight really brings to the table in this scenario is the ability to sit in a doorway or breach and hold RMB. The Knight has no ability to engage in reliable and persistent area denial or deal enough damage to be a threat. I also think the idea of dedicating an entire role just to camping objectives is a waste of multiple classes. 

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3 minutes ago, Toadwart said:

Well, it seems you didnt really read much of the thread.

Warhammer Online has as big or bigger fights than Crowfall will. Tanks were extremely important in large battles 100+ as they were in small battles by using skills that were explained in the first post.

This thread is about how the tank archetype can actually play as a tank, it currently cannot and should either have the name changed to heavy melee ( because they are literally nothing more than poor mdps) or brawler.

Every single class can wear plate armor if they choose in Crowfall, so Im not seeing an advantage there.

Maybe you might spend time looking at the tank skills presented in the beginning of the thread or familiarize yourself with the massive battles of Warhammer Online to get a better idea of what the thread adresses, its hardly a 5 man pve tank thats being questioned. Its about an archetype that can be played as the name "tank"suggests in small or large PvP battles...its already been proven to work and be fufilling in other games.

Who needs 2 versions of mdps?

Mdps barley have a spot at all in large battles as it is.

Yeah, I played Warhammer Online and I don't think the roles in that game, along with their limited class concepts, will scale up well in a game like Crowfall. This is especially the case considering the level of customization per character and the revealed nature of mass crowfall combat. What I'm talking about here is not "2 versions of mpds", but rather:

Removing the "tank role".

Making mdps into a bruiser/pusher role.

Differentiating assassins/specialists from mdps with stealth, anti-stealth, expose and other neat tricks. 

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10 minutes ago, soulein said:

Removing the "tank role".

And thats what it really boils down to and I think would be the point we agree upon.

I would much rather see varied playstyles between healing, tanking , ranged dps and melee dps instead of playing dps #1, dps#2, dps#3 and dps#4. If I wanted really bad combat like that I could log into Guild Wars 2 again, where everyone is DPS or GTFO.

Edited by Toadwart

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