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Toadwart

How will tanks play the role of "tank" in Crowfall?

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Just now, izkimar said:

It would be easy to design the knight around small and large scale. No reason to do one or the other. Simply give it a passive which lets it’s defensive stats scale based on how many enemies are around them (like overwhelming odds) up to a cap. The current ability kit for the knight isn’t bad for what it is (outside of maybe C).

I agree with moving from rigid predefined roles (tanks, assassins). I liked gw2 ‘s way of defining them as heavies, mediums,and lights.

Yeah, Guild Wars 2 did a great job with that. I'm not really a fan with how AoE happy mass combat became in that game, but the general concept of the Warrior and Guardian were pretty similar to what I'd like to see happen with "heavy melee" in Crowfall.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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41 minutes ago, soulein said:

This game isn't about forming 5 man parties to go fight some boss mob at the end of a dungeon, it's about mass PvP warfare. With that in mind, I think the "Tank" role should shift to a "heavy melee" role. If a Rogue/Light Melee character is a glass cannon, the heavy melee character is a tough, armored fighter with decent DPS and some crowd control thrown in for good measure. The idea is to have a melee damage dealer who can stay in the front lines of battle without instantly exploding to AoE spam. 

A Heavy Melee has:

High HP pools.

Access to Mail or Plate Armor

A way to reliably do sustained damage in melee range.

A way to mitigate or otherwise account for lots of incoming damage.

When we're dealing with battles which are potentially as large as 100v100, it doesn't make sense to balance or design classes around a 5-man dungeon party, or even a 5-man pvp team. 

I think you have a good idea of what the tank should be. Too often I hear that tanks need to just absorb damage and be "tanky" and I personally think that has no business in Crowfall as it leads to a class that will be ignored and not played. I used to try to make the Knight viable with suggestions, but with the Classic Trinity concept of a tank and Blaire's Stam Knight concept, I realized no one wanted this to be a Knight I wanted to play.

Right now we have a slow tank that can't force anyone to attack him. This leads to:

  • Tanks can't kill anybody because they can easily run
    • If I do chase someone down, I will run out of stamina when I catch him so I won't be able to use abilities. (Stam Knight)
  • Tanks can't run from anyone
  • There is no reason I should ever attack a tank unless he is the last target
  • I will not bring a Tank in a roaming PVP group because he is too slow and the group will have to wait for him
  • I will not bring a tank in a siege as other classes would provide more utility
  • Tank will only be beneficial in odd situations - Like the defense of a tight corridor
    • This situational play style isn't enough to promote playing a class. They become rarely useful.
  • Try to think of realistic situations where you are happy your teammate is a Knight.
    • The only one that comes to mind is when I am running from a losing battle. I can rest assured that the Knight is the easiest one for the enemy to pick off based on his slower movement speed.

I really think the root of this problem is movement speed which should be equalized across the classes. The reason to not equalize the movement speeds would be an alternative movement system like mounts. Based on Blaire's answer to my "When Will Mounts be in the Game?" which was basically never or way after release, we need to address this now.

Most fights will be around the map. This leads to the faster classes running away/chasing down the enemy and the slower classes getting outrun (dying or not finishing their kills).

PVP roaming groups will be annoying. Joe plays a Knight so nobody wants him in the PVP roaming group. When you play with Joe you have to stop every 5 minutes to wait for Joe to catch up. If you are far from Joe and need help, you will have a hard time getting it cause Joe is slow. Anytime this roaming group encounters a fight where they have more numbers, Joe will play little to no part in the engagement. The enemy will try to run and only the fast classes will have a chance at taking out the retreating enemy. At best Joe might get to watch his teammates take out a couple enemies from afar.

This is a PVP focused game. It is time to start developing it with an understanding that the focus is PVP and making better PVP combat is priority number 1.

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3 hours ago, soulein said:

This game isn't about forming 5 man parties to go fight some boss mob at the end of a dungeon, it's about mass PvP warfare. With that in mind, I think the "Tank" role should shift to a "heavy melee" role. If a Rogue/Light Melee character is a glass cannon, the heavy melee character is a tough, armored fighter with decent DPS and some crowd control thrown in for good measure. The idea is to have a melee damage dealer who can stay in the front lines of battle without instantly exploding to AoE spam. 

A Heavy Melee has:

High HP pools.

Access to Mail or Plate Armor

A way to reliably do sustained damage in melee range.

A way to mitigate or otherwise account for lots of incoming damage.

When we're dealing with battles which are potentially as large as 100v100, it doesn't make sense to balance or design classes around a 5-man dungeon party, or even a 5-man pvp team. 

Well, it seems you didnt really read much of the thread.

Warhammer Online has as big or bigger fights than Crowfall will. Tanks were extremely important in large battles 100+ as they were in small battles by using skills that were explained in the first post.

This thread is about how the tank archetype can actually play as a tank, it currently cannot and should either have the name changed to heavy melee ( because they are literally nothing more than poor mdps) or brawler.

Every single class can wear plate armor if they choose in Crowfall, so Im not seeing an advantage there.

Maybe you might spend time looking at the tank skills presented in the beginning of the thread or familiarize yourself with the massive battles of Warhammer Online to get a better idea of what the thread adresses, its hardly a 5 man pve tank thats being questioned. Its about an archetype that can be played as the name "tank"suggests in small or large PvP battles...its already been proven to work and be fufilling in other games.

Who needs 2 versions of mdps?

Mdps barley have a spot at all in large battles as it is.

Edited by Toadwart

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1 hour ago, ClockworkOrange said:

I think you have a good idea of what the tank should be. Too often I hear that tanks need to just absorb damage and be "tanky" and I personally think that has no business in Crowfall as it leads to a class that will be ignored and not played. I used to try to make the Knight viable with suggestions, but with the Classic Trinity concept of a tank and Blaire's Stam Knight concept, I realized no one wanted this to be a Knight I wanted to play.

Right now we have a slow tank that can't force anyone to attack him. This leads to:

  • Tanks can't kill anybody because they can easily run
    • If I do chase someone down, I will run out of stamina when I catch him so I won't be able to use abilities. (Stam Knight)
  • Tanks can't run from anyone
  • There is no reason I should ever attack a tank unless he is the last target
  • I will not bring a Tank in a roaming PVP group because he is too slow and the group will have to wait for him
  • I will not bring a tank in a siege as other classes would provide more utility
  • Tank will only be beneficial in odd situations - Like the defense of a tight corridor
    • This situational play style isn't enough to promote playing a class. They become rarely useful.
  • Try to think of realistic situations where you are happy your teammate is a Knight.
    • The only one that comes to mind is when I am running from a losing battle. I can rest assured that the Knight is the easiest one for the enemy to pick off based on his slower movement speed.

I really think the root of this problem is movement speed which should be equalized across the classes. The reason to not equalize the movement speeds would be an alternative movement system like mounts. Based on Blaire's answer to my "When Will Mounts be in the Game?" which was basically never or way after release, we need to address this now.

Most fights will be around the map. This leads to the faster classes running away/chasing down the enemy and the slower classes getting outrun (dying or not finishing their kills).

PVP roaming groups will be annoying. Joe plays a Knight so nobody wants him in the PVP roaming group. When you play with Joe you have to stop every 5 minutes to wait for Joe to catch up. If you are far from Joe and need help, you will have a hard time getting it cause Joe is slow. Anytime this roaming group encounters a fight where they have more numbers, Joe will play little to no part in the engagement. The enemy will try to run and only the fast classes will have a chance at taking out the retreating enemy. At best Joe might get to watch his teammates take out a couple enemies from afar.

This is a PVP focused game. It is time to start developing it with an understanding that the focus is PVP and making better PVP combat is priority number 1.

Blair has responded to this in the past, saying that Tanks (specifically the Knight) are meant to defend "fixed point objectives" like forts or castles. The only thing a Knight really brings to the table in this scenario is the ability to sit in a doorway or breach and hold RMB. The Knight has no ability to engage in reliable and persistent area denial or deal enough damage to be a threat. I also think the idea of dedicating an entire role just to camping objectives is a waste of multiple classes. 


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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3 minutes ago, Toadwart said:

Well, it seems you didnt really read much of the thread.

Warhammer Online has as big or bigger fights than Crowfall will. Tanks were extremely important in large battles 100+ as they were in small battles by using skills that were explained in the first post.

This thread is about how the tank archetype can actually play as a tank, it currently cannot and should either have the name changed to heavy melee ( because they are literally nothing more than poor mdps) or brawler.

Every single class can wear plate armor if they choose in Crowfall, so Im not seeing an advantage there.

Maybe you might spend time looking at the tank skills presented in the beginning of the thread or familiarize yourself with the massive battles of Warhammer Online to get a better idea of what the thread adresses, its hardly a 5 man pve tank thats being questioned. Its about an archetype that can be played as the name "tank"suggests in small or large PvP battles...its already been proven to work and be fufilling in other games.

Who needs 2 versions of mdps?

Mdps barley have a spot at all in large battles as it is.

Yeah, I played Warhammer Online and I don't think the roles in that game, along with their limited class concepts, will scale up well in a game like Crowfall. This is especially the case considering the level of customization per character and the revealed nature of mass crowfall combat. What I'm talking about here is not "2 versions of mpds", but rather:

Removing the "tank role".

Making mdps into a bruiser/pusher role.

Differentiating assassins/specialists from mdps with stealth, anti-stealth, expose and other neat tricks. 


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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10 minutes ago, soulein said:

Removing the "tank role".

And thats what it really boils down to and I think would be the point we agree upon.

I would much rather see varied playstyles between healing, tanking , ranged dps and melee dps instead of playing dps #1, dps#2, dps#3 and dps#4. If I wanted really bad combat like that I could log into Guild Wars 2 again, where everyone is DPS or GTFO.

Edited by Toadwart

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On 11/9/2017 at 5:59 PM, entityofsin said:

I think this will be solved through adding more disciples that grant abilities which do the things you're mentioning.

Nah, they need skills in their tree to achieve this, if anyone can be a tank trought disciplines this makes no sense for archetypes. Its the poor choice of appropriate skills in their tree that sould define them.

Devs need to take the stance of a PvP tank instead of a PvE tank, two seconds, and ask themselves "Why must I attack the tank in PvP" to successfully design the class. Which they didn't so far. They must create a class able to give a pressure to the other team, instead, they just gave a class more HP/mitigation, creating some sort of segregation: "Oh ok, he's tanky, we'll save him for last when all its partners are dead and he's no threat".
Wrong! Other team must be constantly conflicting between 2 choices: 1."Ok, we should attack the tank now" or 2."No we can't attack the tank now".
And this PvP pressure is created by giving tanks unique mechanics/abilities, not HP/Regen stats stacking.

Tanks are not as self-reliant as people think they should be, especially in this game which is team focused, they take part in helping their team and must be viewed as support character first and create pressure on other team somehow in order to force players to attack them. You wanted a MMO?! THINK as a MMO dev should.
A lot of games created this artificially through the "taunt" technique, which is considered a CC but which mechanic is incredibly broken, in every game, unless its against AI/PvE, or it get some very specific PvP interpretation, like Warhammer online.

Instead of being resilient, tanks should give HP, mitigation bonus to their group (not stacking per tanks) a bit like weapon power/support power, damage reduction bonus to the whole group (like that 15% damage reduction bard song), being able to give support power to healers without being a healer himself. Get placement CCs, throws and such, directed knockdowns/knockback to help is team strategically.

Devs gotta be creative in order to create a class that build pressure while no being singularly overestimated when it comes to its survival. A focused/ganked tank falls as quick as anyone else, so its important to give him value in a team (at least 2) to encourage them to play in team, and not go solo camping.

Edited by Skolven

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On 11/9/2017 at 5:52 PM, Toadwart said:

 

i find the knight extremely tanky and annoying during the right times. when he stands in front of a target holding shield up blocking the guy you are trying to finish off just reflecting spells back at you, that is annoying. the ability to pull a high value target and stun them is also very essential because he sets the team up for an easy kill, the kill that might tip the fight in your favour. the myrmidon will obviously be in the middle of a fight hurting everyone, not your traditional tank but he will be pulling aggro on his own, unlike the knight who is more of a "stand in front of X and block them" you will want both types of tanks in your roster for war. 1 is actually soaking the damage and 1 will be drawing it away. you just have to find the playstyle that works for each type. like they said, rock paper shotgun. suck at 2/3 of engagements but do you ever shine on those 1/3 rare times. dont be 1 of those silly knights chasing down stuff while your squishies are getting pwnt. you are doing more damage reflecting those same abilities at the enemy while your team can tunnel vision dps instead of trying to stay alive. if you want to be in the enemies face, be the myrmidon because that is his style.

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On 11/14/2017 at 5:58 PM, Toadwart said:

And thats what it really boils down to and I think would be the point we agree upon.

I would much rather see varied playstyles between healing, tanking , ranged dps and melee dps instead of playing dps #1, dps#2, dps#3 and dps#4. If I wanted really bad combat like that I could log into Guild Wars 2 again, where everyone is DPS or GTFO.

Except in crowfall this ideology actually makes sense. "Tanks" don't exist in pvp, since your opponents aren't mindless robots. Knights, templars and myrmidons really fall under the one or two roles; Initiator and disruptor. In order for a knight (or a "heavy") to be threatening they have to be a seen as a nuisance or an obstacle that needs to be dealt with. If you're not annoying enough, you're just going to get ignored and put on the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to kill priority. 

Basically as a knight, templar, myrimdon, you're going to initiate the fight on your terms, pressure your opponents with cc, create kill opportunities and peel for your teammates. That's the life of a "tank" in crowfall. You'll largely go ignored until your presence becomes intolerable.

Edited by Helix

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But tanks do exist in pvp. Warhammer did it very well and it was explained how in this thread..

Every single archetype has cc, the ability to create kill opportunities and peel. All of them...none of that is regulated to tanks. Again the point of this thread and already explained.

Edited by Toadwart

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2 hours ago, Toadwart said:

But tanks do exist in pvp. Warhammer did it very well and it was explained how in this thread..

Every single archetype has cc, the ability to create kill opportunities and peel. All of them...none of that is regulated to tanks. Again the point of this thread and already explained.

Sounded pretty awesome, wont lie to you. Hopefully tanks go that way. Anyone know any big downsides to having tanks act in the role they did on warhammer AoR? (Never played)

Edited by MetalGERE

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Tanks can easily exist in a game with an intuitive physics system and kit designs.  CF is not doing well here but there is still time for ACE to clean things up.

The game would have been better with dynamic arcs and distance on abilities, too much straight line shenanigans.  

On top of it tanks should be the majority of hard CC in a game, they should be annoying, you should have to address them or get heavily punished in the rhythm of your play.

Some of this is tied into the initial designs for class kits, some of it needs to be handled through more restrictions for who can use which disciplines.  

This stuff is totes obvi to people with highly competitive backgrounds, giving everyone everything is not always good for pvp and the illusion of build diversity gets quickly washed away from very clear metas that everyone adheres to because you gave everyone everything and didn't force them to adapt in more unique and creative ways.  

Since ACE is pushing back release to somewhere in 2018 or beyond they again have plenty of time to deal with balance later, but will it be enough?  Time will tell.  There are probably some decisions they've made that are too late to go back on that will ultimately hinder the depth of pvp.

I'd rather ACE push the majority of CC onto tanks and focus a lot of the other roles and disciplines onto counterplay based on buffs and debuffs through resistances and all the other things that involve + or - damage and mitigation that aren't related to actual CC.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 hour ago, MetalGERE said:

Sounded pretty awesome, wont lie to you. Hopefully tanks go that way. Anyone know any big downsides to having tanks act in the role they did on warhammer AoR? (Never played)

Other than idiots playing them, and not knowing the role of their character, not really any major downsides (should be noted that the game itself was a hard tab-target game (though at least you could have 2 targets at once (one enemy and one friendly target),the skill you use decide which of your target would be used, and some would have an effect on both (like buffing strength on the friendly target, and then debuffs the enemy target's str as well)). As Tinnis mentioned on the 1st page, there is a private server you could try if you are interested)

Edited by Gummiel

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Guard was a good skill, I believe DAoC was the first to do this, it was just greatly improved come Warhammer. Tanks should be almost a support, they should provide much needed buffs to their allies around them, which forces people to take out the tank to normalize the rest of the allies. There's other ways to make them a priority target but if don't correctly putting them in more of a support role makes them more meaningful and active (provided the buffs/debuffs have proper CD's that require them to constantly be using them).

But yes, Guard ... so much fun was had with this ability alone, it literally could win matches if used correctly. I would love to see a glyph with an active Guard ability.

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They can work taunt in too by reducing dmg a player that is affected by taunt unless they hit the person who taunts them. Make the taunter glow a colour for the duration so they know who they will be doing full damage too.
It doest prevent them from hitting the tank or running but it can greatly reduce there combat effectiveness on somone agaist there allies.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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On 11/15/2017 at 8:40 AM, soulein said:

Blair has responded to this in the past, saying that Tanks (specifically the Knight) are meant to defend "fixed point objectives" like forts or castles. The only thing a Knight really brings to the table in this scenario is the ability to sit in a doorway or breach and hold RMB. The Knight has no ability to engage in reliable and persistent area denial or deal enough damage to be a threat. I also think the idea of dedicating an entire role just to camping objectives is a waste of multiple classes. 

The pull knights have is quite impactful though at times for example yanking a caster or healer out of place. We see it all the time in say Moba it can be game changing if used on the right target, also screw urself royaly if u pull the wrong target.

I feel they should use % bonus in alot of stats for example HP, Stam, Mana, Distance bonus and so on should be % bonus not a base amount. This would impact races and classes a little more since %hp bonus for example on equipment will benefit tanks more setting them appart from anyone getting the HP bonus since they will have higher base HP and probaly more constitution down the tanky skill tree's. getting skill thats give 1% hp bonus is also far more impactful for certain rolls over the measily 25hp that you currently get. What even is 25 hp when you deal 400+ in a basic attack.
Some heavy offensive classes should get more %dmg in tree's aswell to further boost there roll as a dps roll (Not saying to change every Attack power skill to a % just throw a couple more 2% dmg increase skills in the more dmg heavy classes like assassins.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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This will be mainly a PvP game. In experience of other games and with a first look on this, i need to say, that tanks will be important. Tanks dont deal much damage in 1vs1 situations, but maybe enough for exemple in group fights. They have much more survivalbility and good CC too. Especially melee range DDs have much damage and CC, but dont will have this survivalbility on common way. Good PvP allways is good focussing on targets. When 4-5 tanks focus 1 target while range DDs shot on this, nobody can be foccussed in this group, when all guys play tanky too. Only range DDs have enough abilities and time to stay save in this kind of battles. Melee DDs maybe can focus targets with much burstdamage, but the risk to be targeted themself is much higher. In nearly all games i played, its most difficulty to play a good melee DD successful in big PvP fights without being tanky. So i would say Tanks > Melee DDs. Only in 1vs1 situations is damage maybe the key B)

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Tanks in PVP are all about being a CC bot and sticking to targets. You force another group to deal with you. If you are not tanky enough you blow up, if you don't do enough crowd control or damage you will be ignored.

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For me Crowfall is quite... down to earth compared to other mmos. I don't really like the idea of taunts or AOE defensive buffs as they seem pretty gamey, especial on the low-magic Knight class. Rather I'd like defensive abilities that better represent how a irl knight would defend someone.

What if: When used, the Knights block fully applies to both you and the closest ally with 2m (or perhaps just vs ranged attacks). This better represents a knight actively covering that person with his shield.

This way the Knight can reliably defend an in need ally without relying on physically interposing himself perfectly (which is near impossible with the level of mobility we have).

As for the Templar, given their ability to do holy magic they are a much better hosts for taunts, area shields and defensive buffs. Creating some variety within the Tanks, they both defend, but how they do so greatly differs.

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On 12/14/2017 at 8:32 AM, Kastor said:

For me Crowfall is quite... down to earth compared to other mmos. I don't really like the idea of taunts or AOE defensive buffs as they seem pretty gamey, especial on the low-magic Knight class. Rather I'd like defensive abilities that better represent how a irl knight would defend someone.

What if: When used, the Knights block fully applies to both you and the closest ally with 2m (or perhaps just vs ranged attacks). This better represents a knight actively covering that person with his shield.

This way the Knight can reliably defend an in need ally without relying on physically interposing himself perfectly (which is near impossible with the level of mobility we have).

As for the Templar, given their ability to do holy magic they are a much better hosts for taunts, area shields and defensive buffs. Creating some variety within the Tanks, they both defend, but how they do so greatly differs.

Well, the problem is not how each tank archetype can defend others, its that they dont have any base abilities in their kit to do it at all. Every archetype has access to as much CC as the tanks do and in the case of Rdps archetypes, theirs is even better.

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