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Toadwart

How will tanks play the role of "tank" in Crowfall?

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11 hours ago, Toadwart said:

Well, the problem is not how each tank archetype can defend others, its that they dont have any base abilities in their kit to do it at all. Every archetype has access to as much CC as the tanks do and in the case of Rdps archetypes, theirs is even better.

Sure but if we are suggesting they add defender abilities we should at least give some neat suggestions that set the classes apart.

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Have you seen accuracy of archer ranged attacks? If you are standing somewhere near knight, but behind him, an archer has no opportunity to shoot directly you: all target damage will be taken by knight. I believe that tanking in non-target mmos is much more spesific than you probably think.

In addition, all pvp is motivated by some object and the object is, as a rule, standing still, so you don't have to have as much mobility as damage dealers to protect it: just stay near. As to attacking the object, the situation is pretty much the same: knight has enough mobility to appear near it fast and to make enemies try to escape meeting him (he has enough CC, so they probably will try. If no - it's their problem), to my mind, the main gameplay of knight is running, trying to catch target and standing behind the shield. As to myrmidon, he has enough mobility and CC to be annoying enough. Besides, controling him prevents him to hit a bleeding target, so his gameplay is, to my opinion, way more fun.

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Tanks here are more the bruiser and target giver for focusdamage. Isnt good possible here to prevent damage as tank. For that the DDs need to open there eyes to stay allways save or the supporter need to do well.

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Back in Ye Olde Days of Shadowbane, tank-y classes were usually relegated to literally being meat shields. They'd be out front in force, keeping enemy melee engaged so they can't break the line easily. They'd also be smacked on seige weapon duty, either assembling or destroying, since they can take a beating while the enemy tries to stop them from doing their deed.

I don't know how well that'd fare exactly here, but I can easily see a beefcake tank having a lot of utility in the battlefield! Remember in PvE, tanks are not there to be attacked by the boss - tanks are there to make sure nobody ELSE is being attacked by the boss. The same applies to PvP! You can be smart, and use tactics that make you a high threat that requires focus - essentially, taunt players. Get their aggro by making them... aggressive against you. These PvE mechanics have PvP counterparts.


Tanks may be low-damage, but low-damage can still smush a glass cannon if they aren't stopped and they probably have utilities (stun, snare, interrupt, etc) that make them an annoying target that needs focus. High damage is not the end-all-be-all of target priority.

 

... Disclaimer: I'm someone who PvPs in most games as a tank, and I'm somewhat biased towards singing their praises. #meatsheild

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A great post and thought thread.  WPG was in Warhammer and I agree the tank role in WAR was a legit role.  Right now all I could see the tank running is an initiator, with very little impact as other melee roles seem to have more CC / dmg front line

D,

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I don’t even want to touch this till hit point changes are made and stat scaling comes online.  

The 4250/5000 hp change is a decent start but won’t be worth much unless a tank can stack hit points and they actually work.  This equates to about 1-2 left clicks from a player.  Constitution really doesn’t do anything yet and plate armor doesn’t really offer more mitigation than leather.  It can sure slow you down by a very solid percentage but does any offer anything in return.

so till a lot of mechanics and crafting changes are made you won’t see many tanks out there.  They are slow and don’t offer much in regards to offense or defense.  You will see ranged classes with high dps, fast mobility and comparable defense taking the main stage.... and this is coming from a tank/healer that is now playing a ranged class till it gets addressed. (Totally love toying with knights and templars though... it’s a no-contest event)

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An important consideration when reviewing "minimum viable powers" kits is that they're only slightly removed from their hunger dome iteration, which was IMO a "stick'em with the pointy end" build for testing. That said, I agree with you that it's not a good sign for the Knights/tank classes direction.

Reshuffling CC is something I'd like to see. As others have said I don't want "island" classes, where everyone is a self-sustained and re-flavored dps.

The upside to your OP is that it sounds like an easy start. Add 3 powers to Knight/tank classes and your idea of an effective tank is a lot closer to being realized. @thomasblair

  • Guard - Protect an individual allied target via % dmg redirection
  • Taunt - Targeted vulnerability, dispelled my attacking the caster X times
  • Challenge - AOE dps debuff, dispelled my attacking the caster X times

A few other things to consider. Because of targeting mechanics in CF a lot of what a Knight can do to protect his allies is literally stand in front of them. It's not a great group protection option and a bit crude, but playing the bodyguard is something they can do.

There's a discipline called Secutor (alt link) that gives a power called "Form Up [Coming Soon]," and access to Tower Shields. Which tells me there are defensive powers and items with mechanics that haven't been built yet. I don't think it will be the holy grail of tank disciplines, or the savior tanks are all waiting on but it's worth keeping in mind that there are many specialized game play styles with tech that isn't ready yet.

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Also here's an excerpt from the Physics FAQ.

Quote

HOW CAN PLAYERS TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS SYSTEM (SHIELD WALLS, OR TACTICAL FORMATIONS)?
We anticipate the Tank types to have positional control on the battlefields, they will create formations or walls to protect whom or whatever is behind them. In classic MMO’s the tanks have protected the more lightly armored members of the group, in Crowfall they may also be protecting a siege weapon or entrance to a tower. Of course the enemy may have specialists who dig through the terrain under those tanks to reach their targets.

Some more:

Spoiler

CAN PLAYERS BLOCK OTHER PLAYERS FROM MOVING?
Yes they can, which should allow for some interesting battlefield formations. However, not all characters will have the same mass, so a larger character like a Centaur will have no trouble pushing a much smaller Assassin out of the way. Also, some characters may have special powers that enable them to teleport past other players, while others may have powers that prevent players from passing them. Controlling the battlefield will be a key strategy to master!

 

Edited by baerin
added another question

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I mean Tanking in Crowfall will take on a different meaning than what it traditionally means in a PvE focused MMO.  In PvE MMOs tanks generally get hate so enemies attack no one else and just try not to die.  That obviously doesn't work as well when you're mostly fighting other players who can just ignore you.

Given the reliance on PvP I think MOBAs aren't a bad place to look at how tanking can be done in a game like this.  There's only two I know of at the moment that play similarly to Crowfall (3rd person camera, 3D) and those would be Smite and Paragon.  I played Smite quite a bit at one point, tanking there is handled pretty well honestly.  Tanks typically either mitigate damage for others with buffs or shields, stop the enemy from killing you with CC and body blocking or keep the enemy away from you with area denial abilities.  Geb for instance would keep teammates alive by putting shields on them or by interrupting the enemy over and over.  Athena actually had a traditional Taunt skill, it just made enemies hit by it run toward her and attack for a short period.

I don't have as much experience with Crowfall yet but I've seen a few of these things already implemented.  Obviously there's body blocking, I've seen some AoE ground buffs and of course CC like pull, blind and stun.  I'm sure there's a large number of things that could be done still with tank classes but I think they've got a decent start already.  I think the main issue would be other non-tank classes have more/better CC options.

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in my opinon their should be a severe penilty for casters that get caught by tanks...  if a caster can contsntily cast while moving thats fine ... if i as a tank even touch you ... you chould be hindered to almost a crippled point. ( sort of like moving at like 5% of normal...) reduced casting time something. cause it is complete garbage that a caster can just walk away and constantily pew pew pew you down. i see nobody playing tanks because of this

Edited by Rennon

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1 hour ago, Rennon said:

in my opinon their should be a severe penilty for casters that get caught by tanks...  if a caster can contsntily cast while moving thats fine ... if i as a tank even touch you ... you chould be hindered to almost a crippled point. ( sort of like moving at like 5% of normal...) reduced casting time something. cause it is complete garbage that a caster can just walk away and constantily pew pew pew you down. i see nobody playing tanks because of this

I think there are some good ideas here. Right now the glass cannon of confessor doesn't feel like one because you dash away the moment you are caught. Due to the high mobility skills of this game that EVERY class has it isn't often that you are "caught". Traditional casting glass cannon roles can put out great damage, but if someone makes it to you, you know you're dead.

This could be changed easily by mechanics. Make it so tanks have an ability that blocks dash abilities for 5 seconds or so. This would actually allow tanks to lock down a player. The knight chain pull should do this in my opinion or their dash move. If I chain pull someone, prevent them from immediately just dashing off. The ability to dash off after being pulled by a chain makes it almost useless.

This would make it so the tank's role is to "lock down players" allowing their teamates to focus on them. You could also give tank's abilities that increase damage to that player or lower that players mitigations or reduce players healing received by x%. All these would help promote the tank's into a support type class that actually benefits their teammates.

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The best "tank" I ever played was in the original Guild Wars as a Protection Monk. That "class" had an ability that could be cast every 20 seconds that would reduce the next hit on anyone in the party to 1/10 of it's normal damage. If used properly, the party almost never needed any healing because most of the incoming damage was mitigated before it actually hurt anyone.

Something like (with obvious adjustments) that provides plenty of incentive to make the "tank" a priority in killing; you're simply not going to hurt anyone else while (s)he's still up and doing their job.

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Right now, I'd say a "Tank" is a character who can dive into the enemy stack and be a nuisance without being instantly killed. Knights and Templars have different ways of doing this but are both capable of fulfilling the role.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

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So we ran "tanks" in shadowbane. Specifically we ran as a preferred group composition a half giant barbarian mob. "Tanking" wasn't a thing, but the FUNCTION of tanks very much was. Put simply, "tanks" are characters designed and capable of diving in to an enemy mob and disrupting or killing their back line from shooting spells and attacks at YOUR back line. In the case of our barb comp, which was our longest running and most successful comp it all came down to building for CC immunity, aoe crowd control, and enough damage to knock down any enemy we needed to in melee as a group in a few seconds.

The role of "tank" in shadowbane (usually just called "meat") could more appropriately be called "heavy cavalry" in practice, because that's exactly what it was. You get a pile of them, and you ram them right in to the enemy stack, and the threat of such requires a response or you're not really going to kill any of their ranged guys because you can't get any spells off and they're picking up the damage from the cav. The entire function is to completely trash any semblance of organization in their ranks and prevent them from fighting at a distance while your distance allies are free to shoot in to the stack you're abusing.

It was not a fast comp, it wouldn't do much good at chasing people down, but that's also why you had a scout for slowing down anything you needed to chase. Not only that, ability to chase is far less important than ability to hold a position, as all of shadowbane, just like all of crowfall, is based upon a series of static objectives that one must occupy to benefit from. When you're playing the objectives rather than the kills, the ability to chase is meaningless, and by and large CF's design is very much the same. Anything worth fighting over sits still, and if you're trying to run around ganking people you're going to them to knock them off their valuable objective and MAYBE kill a few guys and loot them so you can take it over and farm it yourself.

Shield users do the thing they're meant to pretty effectively. They allow a force to turtle much more effectively. Expecting them to be good at a roaming composition, or good at some role they're not designed for is IMO like asking why assassins can't forcibly defend something. They're going to be at a disadvantage when they're not in their element the same way a glass cannon archer is going to be at a disadvantage if they need to tank a fixed objective at close range.

Could the numbers for speed and its opportunity cost be looked at? Absolutely. Is it unreasonable to expect people to compensate for the slow movement speed of a group of slow characters by making sure to bring someone to buff their speed? I don't think so. Many MANY groups in shadowbane had a bard basically perma-slotted right there alongside the heal priest for that very reason.

Your basic assumption is that we need tanks to do a pve style damage or aggro redirection for them to play differently and effectively, and that damage or aggro redirection are what makes a tank a tank. I'm not sure I agree with that, having played a whole nation of 90% tanks in every group in a game very similar to this one, designed by the same guy. Barbarian meat rush was a drastically different playstyle from  more balanced group compositions, and it could approach those groups in a much different manner. It was weak to some encounters and strong to other encounters, just like any other build. The assumption of "tank must be able to mitigate damage directly for DPS" also assumes that other characters fall cleanly in to extremely fragile DPS and essential firehose healers, and the creation of those archetypal extremes is a symptom of having such tanking mechanics, not a justification for them.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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9 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Your basic assumption is that we need tanks to do a pve style damage or aggro redirection for them to play differently and effectively, and that damage or aggro redirection are what makes a tank a tank. I'm not sure I agree with that,

But it isnt pve style, maybe it was in the game you played 18 years ago, but modern games have fleshed out a proper tanks playstyle in pvp for almost a decade now (sample pvp tank abilities)

Any archetype can wear heavy armor, spec for cc immunity, ect.

All Archetypes have CC, and some of the ranged dps have better CC than the tanks do.

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Yeah the problem I guess is that a "tank" in PvP is not really a well-defined single concept, it can be many things based on how a game is designed, it can be a guy that is meant to rush into the enemy and disrupt them, it can be a class means to utilize a lot of defensive buffs to protect allies, or it can be something that just supposed to make it tricky to even aim at the backline by standing in the way of the fire, and neither is more right than the others, and probably more way that I listed you can make a good PvP tank as well

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8 hours ago, Toadwart said:

But it isnt pve style, maybe it was in the game you played 18 years ago, but modern games have fleshed out a proper tanks playstyle in pvp for almost a decade now (sample pvp tank abilities)

Any archetype can wear heavy armor, spec for cc immunity, ect.

All Archetypes have CC, and some of the ranged dps have better CC than the tanks do.

With all due respect, your comments on GW2's class system as "dps dps and more dps" doesn't fill me with confidence that you have an appreciation of role specific play that doesn't fall in to the Pve-centric tank/dps/healer trinity.

GW2's problems don't have anything to do with the lack of a hard trinity, but rather with a lack of parity in ability of similar roles. It has more classes/builds than roles, and classes/builds in similar roles are often badly balanced compared to one another. Taken from a lens of its apex classes at any given point in the history of its pvp or pve meta it is most certainly not dps dps and more dps. Its absolute worst pve encounters are a handful of raids that try to conform its very different class design to an expectation of "raid encounters should have raid tanks" and its best encounters are raids and elite 5 man content that doesn't try to turn its core combat design in to something that doesn't work because the core combat design was never structured around tank/dps/healer mechanics in the first place

 

In truth, GW2's role mechanics have always been dps, control, and support, with a much heavier emphasis on cc as mitigation rather than tanking, and prevention/cleansing as support rather than healing, which is precisely why even after the addition of taunt ( which is a short duration cc that lasts a few seconds and can not be kept up over the duration of any fight, and is primarilty used to interrupt or reposition enemies) there is, for the most part no "tank" in pve or pvp except for the few encounters where crystal reid was new to her raid design job and couldn't come up with something that better fit the existing combat system.

 

Its primary pvp issues stem from mad interclass balancing, bad readability that leads to very slim timeframes for counterability, a stupid and near total lack of resource management beyond cooldown timers, and ttks that are entirely too fast to let the breadth of its systems actually work well in pvp. It also uses default game modes that are poor fits for its combat model. GW2 PvP sucks because they grafted a well designed PvE model on to PvP game modes designed for a completely different model and keep trying to balance classes without recognizing the core requirements of their pvp modes do not mesh with the core design of their combat systems. Not because "There are not pvp tanking skills"

My point is that there is no reason to expect or shove "hard tank" mechanics in a combat system that isn't designed around having those mechanics in the first place, not that those mechanics can't work in pvp. By all accounts they worked well withing the WAR combat system that was designed with them in mind my point is that those mechanics are a bad fit for a combat system that does not also include the other two points in the tank/dps/healer trinity of super specialized roles.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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