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How will tanks play the role of "tank" in Crowfall?


Toadwart
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22 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

With all due respect, your comments on GW2's class system as "dps dps and more dps" doesn't fill me with confidence that you have an appreciation of role specific play that doesn't fall in to the Pve-centric tank/dps/healer trinity.

GW2 has some of the absolute worst combat of any recent game in the genre specifically due to designing it around removing the holy trinity.

The meta has never changed from everyone building glass cannon dps except for raids which were added later.

And here is an example of GW2 raid combat (GW2 dps raid ball)

Every GW2 raid consists of people stacking on top of each other and performing their dps rotations.

If you plan to advocate how successful and fun GW2 combat is, then we will never come to agreement.

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5 hours ago, Toadwart said:

GW2 has some of the absolute worst combat of any recent game in the genre specifically due to designing it around removing the holy trinity.

The meta has never changed from everyone building glass cannon dps except for raids which were added later.

And here is an example of GW2 raid combat (GW2 dps raid ball)

Every GW2 raid consists of people stacking on top of each other and performing their dps rotations.

If you plan to advocate how successful and fun GW2 combat is, then we will never come to agreement.

So how is this different from any other game where on encounters raid stacking is an acceptable strategy? In arena and WvW there was quite a few different builds, but bunker was definitely the most popular since surviving is pretty important in those environments. In terms of speed and fluidity, and just over all "feel" GW2 is definitely up there. Even Mark Jacobs committed a while back on how he thought the feel of gw2 combat was great. Was it messy? Sure, aoe all over the place. Was it easy to decipher? Not to outsiders no, but it was fast and fun.

If your argument is you don't like games that don't have a trinity you're totally right tho. Without objectivity we'll never even come close.

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You're aware that wing has been called out by both the community and the developers and being overly easy and just plain broken, right? With the designer herself saying she made the encounters there too easy and the community literally calling it "the farm raid" and the entire raiding community there complaining because that encounter alone trivialized many vendor based raid rewards.

Find me a video of anyone beating literally any challenge runs for fractal content that way, Fractals at 90+, Or Sloth, or, I mean really anything considered challenging in the game. Hell, go try to find members for a party listed as "all DPS" and see how fast you get asked why there's no chrono, no PF warrior, no druid, etc. etc.

That DPS stacking stuff works where its supposed to work, in the open world casual zones, and in low level fractals and dungeons which were abandoned as content when they switched 5 man content to the fractal system. And even then... you're not taking down either of the elite world bosses that way in the open world, you're not completing any of the post release fractals that way even at lower levels. Heck you can barely finish a full run of the final open world zone in Heart of Thorns without bringing a decent number of reflects, cleanses, and immunes to do the general room splits.

I'll just call out a single example here. The triple trouble fight, a really old elite world boss from before raids were a thing. It has three heads which are spread throughout the map and I'll use one as an example, the blue one. This fight contains five roles. This is a pretty typically GW2 "challenging content" encounter, where players are required to fill encounter based roles for which the tasks are interrelated and most builds are capable of filling at least two roles (but not at the same time generally) but you need all roles doing their jobs to succeed.

That fight contains the roles:

Condition DPS (husks) - Some enemies can't be damaged by normal damage, and only by players specced in to conditions.

Power DPS (Boss) - Power DPS is used to damage the main head when it becomes vulnerable, as it is more resistant to conditions and the fight is on a timer, and to kill the other half of the mobs that are more resistant to condition than power damage.

Controllers (Clearing the head) - Allowing certain enemies (the ones others are killing) to get too close to the head creates even more mobs. These players are loaded out with slows, knockbacks, stuns etc. to stop that from happenning. If left to run, these adds spawned this way can overwhelm the players so that main DPS are no longer capable of keeping themselves alive and killing stuff to keep the number of enemies managable.

Bombs (Running explosives) - These players need speed buffs and stealth as their hands are full and they can't use weapon skills. If they are hit the bomb explodes and kills them.

Support (Protecting Bombers/field rez) - These players buff, cleanse, and otherwise defend runners who can't defend themselves completely. They also use ranged and AoE rez abilities to pick up any downed bombers or other players because it is either timer or actual HP suicide to try to do so with the "f to help up" action. Takes too long and would pull them off their roles or swarmed by too many mobs for standing still that long.

Every X successful bomb drops is when everyone clusters for a DPS burn before the head goes invuln again and everyone has to go back to their roles. At the last phase, the head gets cut off and flops around and its a longer DPS burn while moving and trying not to get squished and instakilled by it.

There aren't any tanks in this situation controlling aggro who are only alive because of healers. No less important DPS roles that only need to run a braindead rotation because nothing ever looks in their direction and there's no magic de-aggro button. Everyone has aggro to contend with, everyone has monsters that want to kill them and aoes dropping all over, but most importantly, there is no keystone role like the tank or main healer that everyone else has to be propped up by or just plain be killed. Its an enjoyable encounter that requires that everyone know their role, and perform it consistantly and while being attacked, defending themselves, and sustaining themselves within the expectations of that role. What it's not is a bunch of people standing in a ball doing DPS rotations like it was the tutorial boss.

The fluidity of both the designed roles and class design themselves in this model allow people to seamlessly trasition between roles midfight as needed. For example a common problem in this one is too many failing runners, so people in other roles that have workable templates for it as a secondary role can peel a few off of each of the other 4 roles and cover the slack until those people can run back from a respawn (because you don't rez fully dead people in these types of encounters, because its suicide and a huge waste of time on a timer based fight)

Is it better than trinity? Well no. Is it Worse? Well no. Those are subjective opinions. Its Definately different, and it definately works as evidenced by the hundreds of people that do it daily and know it like the back of their hand and try to farm it for its unique drops.

 

But hey, we're not talking about PvE here. We're talking about PvP.

Find me a single current or even in the last two years pvp ranked meta comp that builds glass cannon. It isn't done specifically because it isn't viable, and even though the trinity you speak of doesn't exist, roles do in fact exist. I'll reiterate that the core problems GW2 has have nothing to do with abandoning ye olde tank and spank mechanics and everything to do with abandoning player agency in how they set up and use their characters, and being absolutely horrible at seeing the glaring power differential between builds that share the same roles.

The major problem is that they decided to have a skill bar with ten skills on it, and tell each and every build exactly what their rotations are, exactly what attacks they're allowed to use, and offer no meaningful resources to manage for the vast majority that create opportunity costs, resulting in 5 skills being literally cooldown whack a mole and the other five being nothing but situational and reactive "this is happenning so hit this button" because there's no opportunity cost to choosing one skill over another for virtually any build in PvE, and very little in PvP.

Its failing is that the created a combat system based exclusively around reactions with very little room for proactive, clever plays because of the overly cooldown heavy, overly resource light core combat mechanics. And the reaction based model works well and is FUN in PvE because mobs are designed to be predictable and reacted to, and PvE generally scales up by punishing failure harder, or simply giving you more inputs at once to react to. It fails in PvP because you're expected to be the thing other players react to and your input in the process as an agressor is mostly "open with X" and then its two people reacting to more often than not a canned set of stimuli because of a lack of choice in what they do at any given moment.

I'm no authority on Warhammer online, but I'm willing to take your word as someone with more experience than myself that the more traditional style tank schema worked there. I also gave a specific and detailed example of pvp role definitions in the game to which this is a spiritual successor and to which it owes much of its core role and build customization design as I felt that was more relevant because it actually worked in a mass pvp environment.

Now, if your argument here is "trinity must exist or there are no roles at all" my point here is simply that it seems to be a very narrow train of thought that doesn't represent the reality of the situation here. The holy trinity is not an essential element to good pvp, nor is it an essential element to having roles. I mean heck every battlefield game has roles and those are shooters.

Maybe its just the WORD tank that bugs you because you have a very narrow dictionary definition of "tank" based on previous implementations. Maybe you are particularly fond of the mechanic itself and simply really like to play traditional tanks. I don't know. What I do know is that that specific and narrow set of behaviors is not crucial to a diverse, interesting, and interdependent set of player roles in pvp or pve.

Operable and important roles simply require that players need more tasks to be completed in a combat environment than they themselves can do alone. You don't need aggro redirection (in a game where aggro is not a concept because selected targets are not a concept) and you don't need massive amounts of damage redirection (in a game with heals specifically designed to not be the deciding factor in whether or not tanky characters are actually survivable) for tanks to fill the fundamental function of tanks, which is keeping less sturdy templates from getting hit.

I apologize if I offended you. It wasn't my intent to troll or get a rise out of you here. I'm only attempting to explain another point of view because I think it is relevant to this topic and because I think its a much more likely blueprint given how crowfall's systems are more broad, and contextual similar to the role definitions in shadowbane or in some of the tougher GW2 content rather than rigid and narrow like in the trinity model. You may not agree but I'm just attempting to make sure you understand the point being made here isn't a better/worse argument, but a "different" argument.

Edited by PopeUrban

LMAO my website is broken please click this to apply to Flames of Exile (maybe, if that's not busted too)

On 5/11/2015 at 1:48 PM, CAWCAWCAW said:

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Just gonna chime in here on GW2 PvP as I played I competitively at their highest levels (ESL tourney's, pro league, etc) for quite a while. 

GW2 PvP and combat feel really good. But that's just about it...movement is fluid and combat is fast, and if you're a good enough player allows for tons of outplay potential. It's not reactive at all, I'm not sure who got that idea. It's PvP...if you're playing reactively then you're losing. 

Where GW2 PvP went wrong was ArenaNet ignoring the PvP scene for years until the first xpac came out and they actually put some time into refining it. But that's where the game lost its PvP since they introduced elite specs and those specs are just massive upgrades for every class. Elite specs basically gave GW2 the same problem CF has currently, and that's that it made it so everyone could do everything. It made it so previously squishy DPS classes (Mesmer for example) became unkillable. It pushed the game towards tank meta's which is incredibly boring to play and watch (I remember a game where both teams literally just AFKd). Other than that, ArenaNet has no idea how to balance and PvP became a poorly made socksty show. 

The combat itself felt really good though and I really enjoyed it for a long time 

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I did enjoy tanks in SWToR using taunts which reduced damage to everyone except the tank that cast it.  I would have preferred if the target was auto switched to said tank otherwise the taunt wasn't really a taunt.

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On 27/1/2018 at 4:22 PM, KittyBot said:

Tanks in Pandora Saga are still the best pvp styled tanks I have ever seen.

Care to elaborate on how that worked? Never even heard the name Pandora Saga before I think

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10 hours ago, Gummiel said:

Care to elaborate on how that worked? Never even heard the name Pandora Saga before I think

Its hard to explain as the games been long dead and so please forgive my memory for any inaccuracies but here is what tanking was like in Pandora Saga.

First things first their were 2 base classes which each at 2 elite versions you changed to once you hit a specific level cap. Insignificant information.

-Mounted warrior

  • Dragoon(tank/control)
  • The damage spec

-Warrior

  • 2 handed weapon spec
  • Lance and Shield spec

I will start off with the mounted warrior class. So in Pandora Saga the game was about a pvp war between 3 kingdoms, each kingdom had a camp on the pvp map and the goal was the kingdoms formed parties and invaded each others camps to control the zone so others could farm the good loot mob on the map.  There were also scheduled wars for castle, forts and farming maps that happened weekly where a kingdom would win a zone or multi regions after each war.

Now because this game had large scale wars the game allowed for some classes to fight on horse back(was pretty great) and so back to the point. The mounted warrior class was capable of charging a horse into players which would knock them down and deal damage, they were also capable of forcing aggro, and have abilities that made them pretty invulnerable for periods of time. So think the Monster hunter world lance charge as the basic premise but that the horses acted as the tank more then the player. Horses had their own HP from the player and could wear armors and gear to improve their stats, this meant that the mounted tank focused on being extremely fast, hard to control and provided extreme control on the battle field as they could knock down, net, stun and weaken their enemies. Just by being a tanky but heavy damage/control threat made them a tank. Players couldn't focus the riders party as ignoring the rider would be fatal and therefore it was tanking by force and not by the generic holy trinity concepts, you cant heal the horse so it was also about controlling the re-summon CD.

Overhaul this was a fantastic class for tanking because it broke the play style and offered something unique however it was a hard class to get into as you need a high tier horse with great armor, then max out resistances on your player as much as possible to allow the concept to work.

Now the good old classic tank warrior. This warrior was very interesting as it found a way to bring PVE concept to the PVP tank. The most notable skill was a life tether that had a minor CD and allowed the tank to take all damage dealt to a certain amount of allies in a party. Now this may sound broken but in essence it means healers can focus heal the tank but if the enemy focuses the tether targets with much lower armor and resistances the tank could be taken out fairly effectively.  Then the tank had other concepts like lifting their shield which would dramatically lower damage from the front of them and enlarged they collision hit box from the front(In essence what games like Overwatch have done but no shield HP). Then after that you got your fairly basic concepts like CC breaks, knockdowns, temporary damage reduction buffs.

The last tank was in essence a berserker. You had a very high damage weapon with multiple AOE skills and your sole job was to bring a healer with you and dive straight into the enemy team, trying to kill the healers and rangers off. It used the same armor type as the classic tank but you would focus on resistance and armor over HP as you couldn't tether. This class in many ways was the walking version of the mounted tank as you had knockdowns and multitude of threats that made it produce very high damage, therefore again tanking by force as you could do a lot if unchecked.  I clearly remember this one 3 man group who used this tank on 8 man groups and win fairly often as it was this tank, a healer and a buffer. This tank was no joke, and was certainty no main DPS as without its support could just be controlled as it was slow and had no escapes.

Sorry this list inst very comprehensive I played the enchanter(buffer) and corrupter(debuffer) classes in that game so my experience is off playing with and against these classes. I hope this at least gives you an idea oh how this PVP focused game dealt with tanking.

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@KittyBot I'm reading this drooling.. Picturing my Guin on a horse doing this..

 

@Tyrant & @jtoddcoleman Can you imagine mounted combat like that in CF. Only problem I can see is an archer or other ranged class could try to take out the mounted person.

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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'd personally like a much more grounded approach to tanking, at least for the knight, leave the taunts and defense aura to the Templar. Simply put I'd like the knights guard to have a small AOE, such that the closest ally within... i dunno, five, ten meters gain the damage reduction from the knight as well as charge up the knights shield meter when they are hit. Currently the knight plays very similarly to Zarya from Overwatch, you try to get people to hit you when you are shielded and then strike them back with the damage bonus that gives, however unlike Zarya the knight cannot apply that shield to other people, which is critical to Zarya's design.

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I loved my Pandora Saga tank.  He was hard as hell to level because he didn't do much damage, but he was hard as hell to kill.

So I suck up the damage and let my guildmates do the killing.

Edited by surBear
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3 hours ago, Kastor said:

I'd personally like a much more grounded approach to tanking, at least for the knight, leave the taunts and defense aura to the Templar. Simply put I'd like the knights guard to have a small AOE, such that the closest ally within... i dunno, five, ten meters gain the damage reduction from the knight as well as charge up the knights shield meter when they are hit. Currently the knight plays very similarly to Zarya from Overwatch, you try to get people to hit you when you are shielded and then strike them back with the damage bonus that gives, however unlike Zarya the knight cannot apply that shield to other people, which is critical to Zarya's design.

Could pretty much copy paste any and all "Tank" abilities from Overwatch and they'd be great in Crowfall.

While I know it isn't fair to compare such games, sometimes it just works so much better to have simple, effective, this is what is means to be a tank/healer/dps/support design instead of trying to overload characters with tons of options that end up leaving things rather flat.

 

Edited by APE

 


 

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WAR was terrible.... one of the lowest skill cap MMOs ever made.

Pushing a single button to cut damage to another player is not good pvp gameplay.   DPS needs to work hard with combos and positioning the 'tanks' in pvp must do the same.   

In good pvp games the tanks peel and stun or snare folks on healers/glass cannons, disrupt while doing constant damage.  Its an active roll one of the hardest to play in pvp right up there with a healer but its a must have role for any solid group in any pvp game I every played.  

Heavy melee leading charges or protecting backlines. 

 

 

Edited by Xomox
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20 hours ago, APE said:

Could pretty much copy paste any and all "Tank" abilities from Overwatch and they'd be great in Crowfall.

While I know it isn't fair to compare such games, sometimes it just works so much better to have simple, effective, this is what is means to be a tank/healer/dps/support design instead of trying to overload characters with tons of options that end up leaving things rather flat.

 

I definitley like to see a mage-tank type character that specializes in barrier shields like overwatch, that would be cool. But for now I'm going to focus on how almost there the knight is compared to Zarya. He's basically a melee version of her already, he's got the damage bonus from shield mechanic and he even has a melee range gravitation surge as his ultimate. Now he just needs a melee range shield other and he'd actually be a complete tank.

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On 2/11/2018 at 11:30 PM, Xomox said:

WAR was terrible.... one of the lowest skill cap MMOs ever made.

Pushing a single button to cut damage to another player is not good pvp gameplay.   DPS needs to work hard with combos and positioning the 'tanks' in pvp must do the same.   

In good pvp games the tanks peel and stun or snare folks on healers/glass cannons, disrupt while doing constant damage.  Its an active roll one of the hardest to play in pvp right up there with a healer but its a must have role for any solid group in any pvp game I every played.  

Heavy melee leading charges or protecting backlines. 

What examples of "good PVP" or good tank design have you experienced?

WAR was far from perfect, but had a lot of strong points when it came to character roles IMO.

Wouldn't say that pushing one button to effectively tank is great design, but along with other abilities, proper collision it was a bit more exciting than other games that have no form of a "tank" role in PVP and just a meatier dps class.

I agree they should be in the front lines and trying to control the enemy for friendlies to clean up, don't have that in CF, then again we don't really have tanks either so makes sense I guess.

 


 

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11 hours ago, APE said:

What examples of "good PVP" or good tank design have you experienced?

WAR was far from perfect, but had a lot of strong points when it came to character roles IMO.

Wouldn't say that pushing one button to effectively tank is great design, but along with other abilities, proper collision it was a bit more exciting than other games that have no form of a "tank" role in PVP and just a meatier dps class.

I agree they should be in the front lines and trying to control the enemy for friendlies to clean up, don't have that in CF, then again we don't really have tanks either so makes sense I guess.

GW1 Wars had a very important roll that involved disruption CC peeling an focus targeting foundation of a good group.  

WoW pvp did also arena and battle grounds a good tanky char was part of multiple top comps (least when i got my glad titles)

DAoC same situation to an extent but as such an early example of MMOs it of course is simplistic, still a shield user saved me many times by stunning folks on me.  I also died to good 'tanks' that knew what their were doing in group play. 

ESO, having a tanky meat bag or two in elite groups was a must when busting large zergs.   Very high skills cap.

And yes even GW2 a game that 'removed' tanks dps and healer rolls still had those rolls in PvP not talking capture the flag but open field fights and GvG matches.

Been doing MMO pvp for sometime, what you consider tanks might not be what i consider them because I think only in PvP terms not PvE.    WAR was a joke btw, spam 1 button is what some 'tanks' did over and over and it worked.   Low skilled players loved that poorly made socks game.

All these games I was part of the upper tier of pvper, GW1 gold trim, WoW deadly glad, GW2 top 20 for a bit on solo queue(unrealated I know), but my guild held number 1 spot for a time in GvG.   ESO, well I was just known, no real ratings system.   DAoC, respected groups.    Point is I have a decent idea of comps for PvP games,  also I hate, really hate low skill cap games because they don't let great players and teams shine.   

1 button mash tank that does not need to be active to tank is exactly what we dont want or need.

 

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20 hours ago, Xomox said:

All these games I was part of the upper tier of pvper, GW1 gold trim, WoW deadly glad, GW2 top 20 for a bit on solo queue(unrealated I know), but my guild held number 1 spot for a time in GvG.   ESO, well I was just known, no real ratings system.   DAoC, respected groups.    Point is I have a decent idea of comps for PvP games,  also I hate, really hate low skill cap games because they don't let great players and teams shine.   

 

Oh, for crying out loud, every damned person who played WoW was a gladiator if you ask them...nm, they will make sure to tell you.

BTW, I invented the internet.

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7 hours ago, Toadwart said:

Oh, for crying out loud, every damned person who played WoW was a gladiator if you ask them...nm, they will make sure to tell you.

BTW, I invented the internet.

Psh, all those gladiators are scrubs. The real pvpers - like me - got high warlord then quit before the game went all carebear.

Kidding. Mostly. I only got to rank 10.

 

On topic: I think MOBAs do pvp tanks better than MMOs ever have. MOBA tanks are tough, but most don't get any gimmicks to force you to target them. They can have some burst damage, but not enough to finish a fight on their own. You bring them because they get good initiation/CC skills.

So ideally they initiate battles by charging in and catching several enemies in CC. ..or by pulling enemies towards themselves and CCing them, or by launching a ranged CC at the enemy team. It varies. The point is they engage first and CC one or more enemies, while surviving whatever the other team throws at them. This sets things up so their fragile DPS friends can safely jump in and finish the job. On the other hand when your team gets initiated on, your tank is the one who might save you by disrupting the enemy team and peeling their DPS off of yours with CC.

The other side of the coin is that MOBA DPS (carries) are usually glass cannons with single target CC only. Some get decent survivability, some get AOE CC, but rarely do they have the right combination to safely initiate like a tank does. A DPS who makes the first attack on 3+ enemies is suicidal - he might be able to CC and kill one enemy quickly, but he can't stop that guy's friends from killing him back. It makes them reliant on tanks to go in first.

Crowfall's tanks have.. some of the tools that almost make them decent MOBA-style initiation tanks. Abilities like the Templar's aoe knockdowns, Myrmidon's net, or Knight's chain pull make me suspect they're intended to fill that role. All three could use some improvements to do it properly. But their real problem IMO is that ranged classes do it better. If you can hit an enemy group with hard CC (powerblock counts as hard in my book), and do it at range before the melees get a chance to contribute, there's no point in bringing a tank to initiate.

Disclaimer: I haven't played any MOBA seriously in a few years. If the meta has changed lately and everything I said is out of date, don't tell me, I don't really care :P

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Staying at back line mostly near your high dps and healerclasses gives you and your team the chance to keep up damaging on focustarget instead getting interupted by the stealth classes like duelists and assasines. Tanks/fighters like me doing great in destroying or at least punishing those who even think about attacking targets i've mentioned before.

I like chicken!

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