Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
Durenthal

State of the knight 5.3.0

Recommended Posts

I think that the crowfall knight has a real identity crisis.  It's not a tank - it's pretty squishy really (no self heals, and block has been nerfed so that it's weak (other than elemental reflect, which only works against people who don't know better).  Cleric block is knight block + group heals.  Templar parry is knight block + knockdown (no cooldown, great dmg)).  A knight survives no longer than anyone else when focused.  And it can't protect anyone else from harm.  And it can't force enemies to focus on itself.   It's not a dps - it doesn't hit hard.  It could be a harasser - except that its gap-closers are on way longer cooldowns than enemy escapes, and all its CC is point blank range.  There are dps classes with very effective ranged CC that make better harassers (as a secondary role to their excellent ranged dps).   So what is it that a knight is supposed to excel at?    I would REALLY like to hear the thoughts of @thomasblair @mhalashace and @vkromas on this.

There's only one tank class in Crowfall - templar.  Templar is utterly dominant in that role.  The combination of divine light, parry-knockdown with no cooldown (WTF?) and massive dmg, execute, and holy warrior - that combination of powers is ridiculously strong when compared to knight, or even myrmidon.  The rest of the templar powers are just icing on the cake.  It hits harder, has excellent defense and self-heals, and has a plethora of knockdown options.

So what is a knight supposed to do, ACE devs?  The knight can't catch ranged opponents, can't hurt melee opponents, and can't take a beating.  1v1 in an arena environment, a knight can do ok against some classes.  But that's not what the game is about.  In mid and large scale group combat, the knight feels lost.  What does a knight do well enough that a group should want to have one over another class?  The only reason I get included in groups right now is that there's no one else available.

I've been playing and advocating for knights for two years now - since the very start of hunger dome.  And honestly, I don't think I've ever been so depressed about the state of the class.  Thomas Blair already gave it one re-work, and it still feels pretty useless.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

/signed.

but for me lags is more nerfing knight than anything. at least PCM now not so stupid and we can use spells...if they activated intime ofc =)

since 5.3 knight and myrmidon get access to bow,  I think this can be enough for now from the dev side (they think so). but hey, @devs,  best range dps is... duelist!!! not ranger or confessor.

I think knight and myrmidon should get later some really unique mechanic (like champion get heal, get guaranted crit and unique rage based disciplines + synergy disciplines ) or overall buff on the current basement.

knight should be mobility __tank__ for harrasment with constant dps above average. tank = shield, unique mechanics around shield. working, grounded, demand

 

 

 

 

 

 


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So far, I've found a limited use for the Knight as a "tackler" (to use an EVE Online term), snaring and immobilizing enemies, or harassing and locking down enemy healers. A knight can keep someone perma-snared while they whittle a single target down, which is about the only thing a Templar has trouble with. Blocking can make you very resilient, but essentially takes you out of the fight and makes you immobile. Meanwhile, Templars can do the exact same thing with Parry, only they have a Riposte which is a conal knock down and can be spammed almost endlessly under the right circumstances. The Knight get's a damage bonus from blocking, yes, but the boost is barely noticeable next to the 1700 damage Ripostes and Executes.

Knight players like Duren and me have made countless suggestions about how to improve the class. I think Makkon's vision of an above average damage, open field tank, fits the Knight better than making it more like the Templar Bunker. 

A few suggestions I thought were interesting:

Increase damage bonus from blocking to 100% -> 200%-> 300%

Instead of a damage bonus, Knight block generates barrier for himself and his group based on damage blocked.

Rework Knight powers to be less weapon specific, grant access to greatswords, re-work Master of Greatswords to grant Execute and "Basic Parry" (no riposte).

Scrap clunky abilities like Shield Slam.

Fix Chainpull. 

 

The devs have three more races and two more classes to work out, not to mention an entire library of animations to clean up, so I doubt we'll see a Knight re-work for some time. Keep the faith borthers.

Edited by soulein

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

I don't play a Knight so forgive my ignorance with my questions.

Does the Knight have sustain damage or is it more bursty? Even if the numbers are low overall compared to other tank classes, it's something I'd like to know.

In order to do damage, the Knight has to spread it out over a number of abilities, some of which have longer than average animations. I've had luck using Critical Hack from Master of Swords to deal out some damage, but that has 3 consecutive hits which all need to land, likewise the Knight Onslaught combo requires multiple key presses while providing an AoE severe bleed. The Knight actually caught a damage nerf to Onslaught in exchange for a lower resource cost. Fortunately, with the PCM changes, Knights aren't having nearly as many issues with their stamina bar as they might previously.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So they're just lacking something that gives them a useful group tank role?

I know in some of the other MMOs I've played that allow tanks in pvp have some sort of taunt that force a player to deal 0 damage to other players and only to the tank for a short duration.

What sort of spells can a Knight get from disciples that help with this tankness issue that it has? Is there anything or is the base kit and stats just not really on par with Templar?

Perhaps some kind of taunt mechanic would be useful. I remember playing that during my days in Rift as a warrior. Taunt someone attacking my healer and that player wouldn't be able to hurt them. Even the AOE taunts in that game were nice for that if I wanted to safe a couple people at once.


OS_Sig3.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think ultimately the knight (and other “tanks”) should fall under the moniker of “controller”. Basically a subset of classes that while not heavy on damage, they should be heavy on defence and CC and group utility. The Templar and myrmidon do this better because of their survivability. I think that’s the biggest issue with the knight right now. Give them better survival and group utility options and I think he’ll be pretty good.

Edited by Helix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

So they're just lacking something that gives them a useful group tank role?

I know in some of the other MMOs I've played that allow tanks in pvp have some sort of taunt that force a player to deal 0 damage to other players and only to the tank for a short duration.

What sort of spells can a Knight get from disciples that help with this tankness issue that it has? Is there anything or is the base kit and stats just not really on par with Templar?

Perhaps some kind of taunt mechanic would be useful. I remember playing that during my days in Rift as a warrior. Taunt someone attacking my healer and that player wouldn't be able to hurt them. Even the AOE taunts in that game were nice for that if I wanted to safe a couple people at once.

The Knight can mitigate a significant amount of incoming damage by blocking, but can't do anything else at the same time. Tanks in Crowfall have been described as excelling at defending "fixed point objectives" like forts or castles. The Knight simply lacks many of the abilities for area denial that the Templar has. It's also important to remember that the Knight was the first class to be designed and built and may simply be out of date compared to many of the newer classes which were developed with more/better tech.

I'd like to see Knights, Templars, Myrmidons and Champions move from fulfilling a Tank or DPS role to exemplify the "Fighter" archetype they've been grouped under in the Clas Skill Tree. I see these classes as "Heavy Melee" characters who can wade in and do above average damage with above average to high mitigations/health/armor, as opposed to Rogue melee characters (Assassin, Duelist) who would have high to extremely high damage, but lower than average mitigations/health/armor. This seems to better fit the type of game Crowfall is shaping up to be more-so than trying to pigeonhole classes into the traditional RPG trinity somehow.

 


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The knight's block tooltip initially had elements of 'front' and 'behind' positional elements [with the tech not existing at that point]

 "Allies behind you benefit from increased damage reduction"

iNZcxPn.png

Quote

Players who engage a blocking Knight will also have a chance to be knocked down when they hit the Knight with a front-facing melee attack

will this be revised post assassin work @jtoddcoleman?


Also the SECUTOR major shield runestone form up design document hinted it was a group wide buff that will knockdown an enemy that hits one of your allies [a group shroud of darkness] etc - but also not yet ready in 5.3 from the sound of it

Edited by Tinnis

caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When the knight was originally designed, combat was based on animation locking. Now the combat is way more mobile and the knight can't keep up. Sure, many abilities can be used while moving, but that doesn't make up for the mobility that other classes have. Block and Shield Slam used to be the knight's bread and butter. They nerfed Block and both abilities make the knight immobile. Shield Slam is useless now. The only movement/gap closing abilities the knight has don't work correctly and haven't for a long time. 

Blair and Halish talked about knights a bit in the livestream today, starting at 54:44. Basically, they said that once knights have armor that provides 50-75% mitigation, they will effectively have 6X HP. That makes it sound like knights will need the best gear just to be actual tanks. Blair also said that knights will scale well, but I don't see it. Noble Blood is a flat amount. Oath of Will is a flat amount. There's nothing that is going to reduce the cooldowns on Pursuit or Chain Attack, or allow knights more mobility while using block or shield slam. Other than wearing high quality armor, which every class can do, where's the scaling? Have they changed the armor? Does plate now give high mitigation to all damage types?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Couple of changes I would love to see. To make knight a bit more viable as a threat. 

The block damage buff should be for a small range of time not just next attack Block a few hits get 3 seconds to chain together a devastating counter attack. 

Have blocking a big hit reset the cooldown on pursuit. Then they could actually close much better and movement based abilities are inherently fun. 

The shield bash should do a group buff or some other benefit,  a resource regen for the group with a small hot attached. Or a group bubble effect or something so that when grouping with a knight folks get a benefit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if knight is supposedly such a gear based class - why do shields offer nothing compelling as an item of gear outside of a few additional metal bar combination stats...?

[e.g. no native stats to mitigation/damage or whatever and no meaningful or observable difference between shield types]


if the tech was there i'd like something like:

  • every time the knight hits a target they generate a high X% of their damage as a barrier to their nearest ally within say 10m [not self!]
  • however if they are hit X times or for X% of their life in Y seconds [like root break trigger or punch drunk trigger]
  • then this barrier generation is temporary disabled for Z seconds


bonus points if you tie these two above points together:

the better the shield quality the more barrier is generated. the larger the shield could also tweak either generation range or even maximum number of targets you can generate for etc

Edited by Tinnis

caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a knight isnt meant for 1v1ing lol. nothing is more annoying than me winning a 1v1 vs someone for a knight to run out at full hp holding his block in front of the 1/4 hp target spamming his broken pull that just lags you and his shield stun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/13/2017 at 11:49 PM, makkon said:

 

On 11/13/2017 at 11:49 PM, makkon said:

Since 5.3 knight and myrmidon get access to bow,  I think this can be enough for now from the dev side (they think so). but hey, @devs,  best range dps is... duelist!!! not ranger or confessor.

 

Just poking my head in to say pistol duelist definitely isn't ranged. Their attacks are 15m range, 20m at most. Which doesn't even scratch the surface of the range fessor and ranger can output.

 

I've been saying it for a while and I think other people have the same idea. Myrm is an offensive tank, Templar is your standard heal tank, and knight should be a barrier tank. Simple as that. Give them unique roles and the rest will follow.

Like if oath was an AoE barrier. If C power emitted a shockwave that moved fast, damaging and slowing enemies while giving dmg reduction and barrier to allies, and block was actually something interesting...I think that'd go a long way in giving knight a viable role. 

But I don't play much knight so, just from a theory standpoint that sounds good to me in terms of designating the class a role 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So... I'm new here, and still learning my way around, but it seems like the undeveloped Knight is a perfect opportunity for the development of a reactive melee class. In other words, similar to the Reaver class from DAoC. (Disclaimer: I was the Reaver TL for about six years and the Reaver is  and always will be my favorite class from any MMO.)

Essentially, they do pretty mediocre damage, moderate mobility, and have only medium survivability. The catch is that when they get an "opening", they can use a situational "reactive" skill that is not normally available that not only does extremely high damage, but it also provides a permanent benefit to the character.

For example (and this is/was an actual Reaver skill), when the character blocks an enemy attack, they have a second or two to perform a reactive bash that starts a three-part chain attack that stuns the opponent for a short time, followed by an unavoidable high-damage attack, followed by very high damage attack that includes a lifetap/bleed/knockdown component. (The stun is only a guarantee to hit the second in the chain, so the opponent can avoid or mitigate the final very high damage + effect hit.)

Basically, the class is borderline underpowered until a specific even occurs, and then (if they take advantage of the opening) becomes a powerhouse. It takes a relatively high skill ceiling to play effectively, which makes it fun and challenging.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...