Sir_Miserable

Am I missing something?

Recommended Posts

Am I missing something?  Have I misunderstood something fundamental?

I’ve had Crowfall for one week.  Here are my thoughts.

 

Resource gathering - a tedious grindfest.

Crafting – I tried making a non-basic sword.  There are maybe 20 (maybe more) failure opportunities.  The crafting failed.  I tried something else.  The crafting failed.  I could not be bothered to go through the tedious RNG gather grind failure charade again.

 

Crafting Skills – If I train crafting exclusively for 69 days, I’ll be quite good at crafting BASIC items.  If I then train woodworking exclusively for another 168 days, I will have mastered woodworking.  Wow. 

 

Combat skills - If I train for a mere 329 days, I can complete the knight skill tree.  So I will have a full strength knight at this time?  No.  I need to train on the combat tree (but not at the same time as crafting).  Basic combat tree 126 days.  81 days for melee weapons.  185 days for armour.  Possibly another tree that I’m not sure what its for.  However, to be a truly effective warrior, there are quite a few exploration skills you need.  Skilltree 58, the one that buffs your stats, 186 days.  I’ve just approximately added up the numbers on the trees.  If there’s a different mechanic that I don’t know about, then whatever.

 

Campaigns – 95% of the map is pointless filler – a problem with procedural generation.

The website makes a big deal of Uncle Bob playing Risk without a restart mechanic and how this makes him unassailable and this is a problem which Crowfall won’t have.  But of course it will.  Due to the insane skill trees, new players will be at a HUGE disadvantage compared to the old players who will be able to gank them mercilessly.  Guilds and organised player groups will just magnify this effect (more likely to be the old players).  The view that everyone has the opportunity to start a campaign on an equal footing just sounds like absolute garbage.  It’s like saying that the new born child and the fully grown grizzly bear are on an equal footing because neither of them has a sword.  And if a campaign lasts a year?  Do you not think that this is EXACTLY the Uncle Bob scenario?   

 

So I liked the concept – which is why I spent my money, but the strategic implementation seems hugely, fundamentally flawed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sir_Miserable said:

Am I missing something?  Have I misunderstood something fundamental?

I’ve had Crowfall for one week.  Here are my thoughts.

 

Resource gathering - a tedious grindfest.

Crafting – I tried making a non-basic sword.  There are maybe 20 (maybe more) failure opportunities.  The crafting failed.  I tried something else.  The crafting failed.  I could not be bothered to go through the tedious RNG gather grind failure charade again.

 

Crafting Skills – If I train crafting exclusively for 69 days, I’ll be quite good at crafting BASIC items.  If I then train woodworking exclusively for another 168 days, I will have mastered woodworking.  Wow. 

 

Combat skills - If I train for a mere 329 days, I can complete the knight skill tree.  So I will have a full strength knight at this time?  No.  I need to train on the combat tree (but not at the same time as crafting).  Basic combat tree 126 days.  81 days for melee weapons.  185 days for armour.  Possibly another tree that I’m not sure what its for.  However, to be a truly effective warrior, there are quite a few exploration skills you need.  Skilltree 58, the one that buffs your stats, 186 days.  I’ve just approximately added up the numbers on the trees.  If there’s a different mechanic that I don’t know about, then whatever.

 

Campaigns – 95% of the map is pointless filler – a problem with procedural generation.

The website makes a big deal of Uncle Bob playing Risk without a restart mechanic and how this makes him unassailable and this is a problem which Crowfall won’t have.  But of course it will.  Due to the insane skill trees, new players will be at a HUGE disadvantage compared to the old players who will be able to gank them mercilessly.  Guilds and organised player groups will just magnify this effect (more likely to be the old players).  The view that everyone has the opportunity to start a campaign on an equal footing just sounds like absolute garbage.  It’s like saying that the new born child and the fully grown grizzly bear are on an equal footing because neither of them has a sword.  And if a campaign lasts a year?  Do you not think that this is EXACTLY the Uncle Bob scenario?   

 

So I liked the concept – which is why I spent my money, but the strategic implementation seems hugely, fundamentally flawed. 

 

I believe many -- including myself -- agree with you it comes to the crafting.  It's a horrid thing where you just cross your fingers and do not feel at all like a craftsman.  Though I am perhaps comparing it unfairly (and too harshly) to games that have done it so much better.  When I first read about their plans with crafting, I remember reading something along the lines of "We looked at other games and weren't impressed", so naturally I assumed they'd try to make an effort to make it.  Well.  Good.  I've gone into depth regarding this in another post, but suffice it to say that, at this point, I'd prefer WoW's crafting system -- and I don't ever want to say that again about anything.  The problem is that I don't see it improving with what they already have on their plate.  Mere number crunches, if anything, and such does not tackle the core problems nor the fact that this so-called crafting is just a slot machine with no crafting involved.  Even taking a step back and adopting an older system from UO would be an improvement.  Simplistic but efficient.  I only hope it's still in development or that acquiring things we haven't seen yet in trees will help.

When it comes to the actual use of items, skills, stats, etc.  There is something that you're missing.  That is, everything is dependent on a couple of factors:

What you can bring into campaigns (limited inventory, if anything, with values)
The limits of the body you've taken over (And limits on bring in a high quality one).


That said, even if you are playing against someone that has been at it for 5 years, his stats will be the same as yours, roughly speaking.  Meaning that his vessel can only hold, say, 100 stats and x abilities.  Your vessels can only hold 100 stats and x abilities.  So he may be able to have a bit more say in where the stats are distributed, but as a whole you'll both be stat capped.  As well as mastery capped (A vessel might have a limit of 70% swordsmanship, as an example.  So even if your crow has 100%, you're restricted to 70%).


When it comes to the length of acquiring skills, that's debated and intended.  Everyone will be basic for the first few months.  With basics stuff, we won't worry so much about stat locking since no one will be up there.  But there is also a market in teaching others skills you learned through books that you can craft.  So if you have one of these books, you can learn that skill.  This is one of the catch-up or money making features.  Though they have said that they will implement others as the need arises and as time passes.  Though in essence, we'll never be able to use a 100% complete character due to vessel and campaign limitations.  Having 100% just means we have more options to play with, but are still restricted by the limited viable powersets, skills that can be equipped and stat caps.


Those who reach mastery first will have to decide if they want to make others stronger and themselves weaker in exchange for vast sums of materials.  Though they can still be competitive due to the above.  Likewise, the skill system and subclasses and all that are still under development.  The times are being nailed down.  But one of their wants, I believe, was for it to take years to master a character.  Though by then more stuff might be released as well.  This falls in line to a lot of the older games like Ultima Online whereby it could take upwards of 9 months to become a Grand Master in just one discipline.


When it comes to campaigns, there are many things to consider (and likely are still in discussion).  The limitations above, potential limited numbers of guildmates, the rulesets, etc.  The latter being "Good, Balance, Chaos" type of thing where you join your faction.  Guild Warfare.  Or FFA.  With maps larger than what we have right now (likely) having different locations for all resources and castles to conquer and the like.  In the past they were talking about some type of historical events calculator.  Where the computer creates a world that has kingdoms, the kingdoms go to war or whatever.  Then you see the aftermath of collapsed civilizations around.  Or perhaps lively cities.


You then have to consider resources and food as the seasons and weather changes.  Monsters become more dangerous.  And the "Hunger" starts to consume the world.  Large guilds especially will need to worry about food reserves, resource gathering and storage, protecting from raids to protect their resources, maintaining their holdings, etc.  To say nothing of sieges and the like.

As a whole, most things are likely still be ironed out, but the fresh perspective of someone coming in such as yourself is likely invaluable.  To see how someone that hasn't been involved with the game up to this point sees it as a third party.  How they can address those things to others looking in from outside both verbally and with systems.

 

Edited by Sindothyx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CF is still an MMORPG and not an arena in the traditional sense, and some people seem perplexed by that (and I would say "understandably so", but I'm not really sure it is given the genre and/or the game design).  You are going to need to "level up" over time, though even that has had its potency greatly reduced (again compared to what is traditional) to soften the blow for newer players (also skill injectors latter on).  Also, you'll need a guild/group/faction.  While I can't speak to crafting, perhaps the RNG involved will be reduced before launch if that is the consensus of the community.   

Finally, yes--this is a game where you do not start out on exactly equal footing with everyone.  There are a host of reasons for this and one of them, though minor in comparison, is skill leveling.  

Edited by Regulus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are supposed to specialise in this game, you wont in any foreseeable future be able to have a fully maxed knight with all the explorations and combat general skills as well, you have to pick, if you want to go combat, or exploration.

Also I am going to assume you been playing on you 5.2.10 live client, which is VASTLY different from the 5.3 that is on the test server (so far only pre-alpha and alpha 1 test groups have access so far, since its still very new, but without a few weeks a most likely everyone that have access to live should have access to the 5.3 test client as well).

5.3 among other things contain a race/class split, a totally revamped skill tree (and thus instead of the Archetype trees you get separate race and class trees, but get to train in both a race and a class at the same time), action harvesting and much more.

the current crafting is the first iteration they did of it as well still, so pretty good chance we will have a revamp of that as well at some point, though it is not a focus right now.

 

Lastly the game itself is still very much in pre-alpha, quite a few systems that not even implemented yet(factories and caravans are 2 that pop up in my head straight away, think there are more I cant remember here and now as well) (the games state the the tester access groups are NOT the same for some reason). This mean that it is more of a TEST than a GAME still.

Don't get me wrong, your Feedback is very welcome, and the devs is reading and reaction to it, they have done huge changes before (even relatively recent), on quite a few areas based on player feedback, even on the plans for the VIP (ie part of the games monetization)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes you are missing something.

The crafting has all patterns shown. For free. There are testing crafting skill potions that give basic skill so that covers all of the crafting lines. But you get no specialist training. 

But the patterns are all there waiting. Wanting to be made. And you have zero real training. Noone thinks about the fact that you can make that basic sword, over and over. They want the advanced stuff. Because if they can see it they can make it right!

FAILURE! If you didn't have the patterns you could never have tried without training. But people only see the FAILURE!

Then they think my god this sucks. (Including me, before I got the clue by four.)

Also the crafting system is not near complete. Many patterns are in. But many are not. The balance of mats vrs time or effort has not been done. The way things are done now you have to make most everything yourself and it is a chore. When you can have a thrall cranking out subcomponents and another thrall making armor layers. And a third thrall doing metal bars then the system will feel much more like an inventor/mad scientist making blueprints and cackling when they get amazing rolls. 

Yes it takes too many combines and mats for many things, but that is also because we are brute forcing it right now with only a rough first pass of only a third of the crafting in. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes I realise this is a test, although without training skills for several months, I have very little to test other than pressing my F key.  (Surely this is a flaw in the testing plan – it’s a test, yet I have access as though I’m a newbie in live.  In other games’ tests, testers are given a huge sum of cash/skill points or whatever to test features).  Anyway, I can only feedback on what exists at present, I can’t feedback on the infinity of possible futures.

IF I trained combat basics, this would give me +45 damage (+96% to 210% damage compared to a basic 2 handed axe), +40 armor mitigation (+200% over basic armor), +40% boost to crit hit chance and so on.

IF I trained Skilltree_58 it would give me +20 on strength, dexterity etc., and a bunch of other buffs.  The attribute boost equates to a 50% to 150% increase on base attribute value (dependent upon race/class).

These are pretty big advantages (and yes, I realise not everyone will choose these routes, but the same applies to crafting and gathering or any combination of universal training).  Therefore old players will have a big advantage over new players.

 

I noticed a relevant point on the FAQs:

“While there is an advantage in this system to starting earlier, skill gain is set up on a diminishing results curve; it’s easier to gain the first 20% than it is to gain the last 2%.
Additionally, we have a few ideas brewing that would allow players to “catch-up” to some degree. Our goal will be to strike a balance: early players will have a slight advantage, but competitive gameplay won’t be insurmountable for the players who come along months (or years) later.”

 

The diminishing returns feature is absolutely standard in all online games, so no change there.  However, this in itself brings a problem.  An optimal strategy when there are diminishing returns is to train everything a bit and nothing a lot.  This just means that old players will be significantly better at everything compared to new players, rather than immensely better at 1 or 2 things.  And the more diverse the set of skill trees and routes there are to take, the longer this advantage will persist.

 

As for the catch-up ideas – I can’t test or usefully comment on a feature that doesn’t exist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that the way the current pre-alpha test plays is supposed to be exactly representative of how the launched game will play and work.

If it was, I'd probably have said cya a long while ago. If a lot of these things are still like this when it is in beta at the beginning of next year, yeah this game will fail miserably. But certainly, I think a lot of criticisms are representative of newer people having a flawed perspective of what is expected of the current play test.

There are certainly valid criticisms of other core features of the game, and I think the idea of crafting failure is definitely one area that is worthy of being reevaluated based on its intense severity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gummiel said:

You are supposed to specialise in this game

You can't specialize in this game, you can only "wait longer" to have more skill points. There's nothing rewarded for chosing to not select some skills or to sacrifice skills if they're handled free to you.
It's not like you can just "skip on these skills to have these other exclusive ones", you can just pick 'em all anyway over time.
 

Edited by Skolven

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're testing a semi-stable dev - I get it.  A test requires feedback - i'm giving feedback.  I can only give feedback on what exists.  I understand this isn't the real game.  

BTW Skolven, its just marble etc.  get it from the chests at the quarry.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love these threads, really I do.

It's an invaluable "hallway test", to have new players come in and lay down what they like and hate. 

I trust ACE to figure out how to do something with these observations.  I only hope that with some issues there is not so much development inertia that they can't correct course in a reasonable time.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Sir_Miserable said:

We're testing a semi-stable dev - I get it.  A test requires feedback - i'm giving feedback.  I can only give feedback on what exists.  I understand this isn't the real game.  

BTW Skolven, its just marble etc.  get it from the chests at the quarry.

 

Please don't take people's responses to your posts as attacks or trying to shout you down. I think most here totally get what you are saying and agree on some level if not completely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Skolven said:

You can't specialize in this game, you can only "wait longer" to have more skill points. There's nothing rewarded for chosing to not select some skills or to sacrifice skills if they're handled free to you.
It's not like you can just "skip on these skills to have these other exclusive ones", you can just pick 'em all anyway over time.
 

Someone a while ago actually did some math on that, and at the time it would take something around 40 years to fully grab every single skill (and we have since already got more skill trees, and even more are still planned, so wouldn't be surprised if it would be something like 100 years at launch). So no YOU can absolutely not get everything, so you will have to choose, MAYBE you child when he is grown up, if he takes over your account might be able to have every single skill, assuming no new content is added and/or the game is not shut down by then. But being more than likely to have happened in that time span, so yes you absolutely can and will have to specialise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Skolven said:

You can't specialize in this game

You pick a race. You pick a class. You pick skills in the skill tree to train to boost your character's ability to do specific things better, such as getting more weak points on a resource node or more stuff dropping. Could even just focus on getting anything and everything that helps you survive and kill more in pvp. It's what specializing will look like from what I've seen in the game so far.

1 minute ago, Skolven said:

My point Grummiel being that there's no exclusive skills reserved for those chosing a prerequisite path.
"Not having everything" is not the same as "being specialized".

I am curious though what you mean by this. Could you clarify a little more for me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sir_Miserable said:

Yes I realise this is a test, although without training skills for several months, I have very little to test other than pressing my F key.  (Surely this is a flaw in the testing plan – it’s a test, yet I have access as though I’m a newbie in live.  In other games’ tests, testers are given a huge sum of cash/skill points or whatever to test features).  Anyway, I can only feedback on what exists at present, I can’t feedback on the infinity of possible futures.

2 hours ago, Sir_Miserable said:

We're testing a semi-stable dev - I get it.  A test requires feedback - i'm giving feedback.  I can only give feedback on what exists.  I understand this isn't the real game.  

SO. Somehow I missed this post before typing up my reply, but if you think it might have any merit, feel free to read on anyway - otherwise, feel free to skip on by.

 

That isn't really a flaw in the testing plan, per se - what you're seeing is the difference between pre-alpha testing and PTR testing for a finished and launched game, which is what you are describing. As you have no doubt surmised, those two things are like night and day, but since the latter (or the middle-ground of beta testing that a lot of people have experienced) is the only game testing experience 90% of people have ever seen, it is the benchmark against which they measure all other kinds of game testing, even though they have almost nothing in common with each other.

In a PTR, usually the purpose of testing is to hammer out bugs with new content and make sure it plays well with the current stable live server iteration.

In a pre-alpha test, the purpose is to test individual modules of the core game, often independently of the other modules, to ensure that they all work individually, and then later that they all work together. Despite the disparity between this game's test environment and what most people have seen, though, the current state of testing is actually still more than average pre-alpha test gameplay is, though part of that is how far into testing we are. Additionally, there usually isn't a stable live server iteration for pre-alpha tests, since live servers usually come in a later test phase, so Crowfall is ahead of the curve there, despite the fact that doing things out of order means that they are a "live server" that doesn't have maybe 75% of the features that will be in on launch day.

It's a fundamentally different experience that it is difficult to adequately prepare someone for if they don't have all the context, so I hope this has helped.

Vis a vis crafting, I also think it's worth pointing out that Hold F to Harvest is going to be gone once 5.3 goes live, and has been on its way out for months (because nobody liked it), but as of the current live iteration, only combat has had its 2.0 pass. The 2.0 pass for harvesting is, as near as I can tell, done but not live, and the 2.0 pass for crafting is still in the works. But as other people have explained, the crafting systems you've experienced in whatever 5.2.XX is up right now is in no way representative of what will be in the game at launch. I understand that the game might not be terribly fun right now - there are several reasons that I don't log in much anymore - but it's only going to change when it changes. What you're seeing isn't the game, it's an unusually diverse pre-alpha test module, and we have been told enough of what will change between even 5.3 and live that it would be wise to expect the game to look almost completely different today than it does on launch day. It may not even resemble itself anymore by the time it moves into full alpha. So have a bit of patience, or if you can't or don't enjoy the current test phase enough to justify patience, play something else. Game testing isn't for everyone.

Edited by goose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Skolven said:

My point Grummiel being that there's no exclusive skills reserved for those chosing a prerequisite path.
"Not having everything" is not the same as "being specialized".

So Skrolven, what you say is you cant specialise in the real world either? cause just because I decide to be good at programming doesn't inherently prevent me from also learn how to be a good doctor, or a good salesman?... so in that regard the way this skill system work is not unlike real life.

In short YES not being able to get everything means you ahve to specialize, at least learn the meaning of a word before you begin to use it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

You pick a race. You pick a class. You pick skills in the skill tree to train to boost your character's ability to do specific things better, such as getting more weak points on a resource node or more stuff dropping. Could even just focus on getting anything and everything that helps you survive and kill more in pvp. It's what specializing will look like from what I've seen in the game so far.

First choices are aesthetical choices so far, as attributes are not defined. Later on will it be changed? Do devs will do as they say they will? No one can tell, so I won't assume. Some players think its gonna be only flavor attribute, with no real impacts on gameplay.
Skills are my major focus as a new player because they're so far the more stable/reliable source of stats improvement with a direct impact on gameplay. I can't craft advanced gear yet, everytime they just break and understand I gotta invest in appropriate skills but I believe they also play a big role as well in stats.
Its about knowing what will make you a better tank, CCer, healer and optimize it, of course there's plenty of way to improve it it so far but I would call it specialization, just progression.

My point about specialization is that you voluntarily chose to close avenues to get new ones. A concrete example would be to access a skill tree, let's say Champion, and remove a  pip on a defensive skill node, to have it added to another skill of another attack skill node. So that defensive node would now have 4 pips available only instead of 5, but that other attack skill (let's say it's specifically increase % crit) would have 6 pips instead , allowing to reach 1.2% crit instead of a normally 1%, while sacrificing your armor bonus +10 to +8.
That would further specialize you into a offensive meleer.

A specialization depends on player's choice, the skill system actually depends on time, that's where I see a big difference on the fundamentals.
 

Edited by Skolven

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Skolven said:

A specialization depends on player's choice, the skill system actually depends on time, that's where I see a big difference on the fundamentals.
 

So you are saying it is not my own choice that I go down the exploration line, instead of the combat line?, did the game somehow make that choice for me all on its own, with me having no impact on it? Again know the words before you use them.

(And frankly I saw your other thread, so unless you can somehow manage to put together a real argument, I'm not gonna respond to you anymore.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Skolven said:

First choices are aesthetical choices so far, as attributes are not defined. Later on will it be changed? Do devs will do as they say they will? No one can tell, so I won't assume. Some players think its gonna be only flavor attribute, with no real impacts on gameplay.
Skills are my major focus as a new player because they're so far the more stable/reliable source of stats improvement with a direct impact on gameplay. I can't craft advanced gear yet, everytime they just break and understand I gotta invest in appropriate skills but I believe they also play a big role as well in stats.
Its about knowing what will make you a better tank, CCer, healer and optimize it, of course there's plenty of way to improve it it so far but I would call it specialization, just progression.

My point about specialization is that you voluntarily chose to close avenues to get new ones. A concrete example would be to access a skill tree, let's say Champion, and remove a  pip on a defensive skill node, to have it added to another skill of another attack skill node. So that defensive node would now have 4 pips available only instead of 5, but that other attack skill (let's say it's specifically increase % crit) would have 6 pips instead , allowing to reach 1.2% crit instead of a normally 1%, while sacrificing your armor bonus +10 to +8.
That would further specialize you into a offensive meleer.

A specialization depends on player's choice, the skill system actually depends on time, that's where I see a big difference on the fundamentals.
 

You seem to be assuming that character specialization will be derived from the Archetype skill trees. That was never the case - the Archetype skill trees were always intended to get filled out 100% of the way by everybody playing that Archetype. They were analogous to a toon's character level in other MMOs. In WoW, the difference between a level 50 Warlock and a level 50 Warrior isn't a relevant discussion of build differences, and the difference between a level 15 Rogue and a level 50 Rogue also isn't a relevant discussion of build differences.

That feels like a sloppy analogy, but it's as close as I can get to what you seem to be describing. Anyway, it's all doubly irrelevant since the skill trees are getting a massive overhaul in the next patch, and we haven't seen the changes yet.

Edit: also, if your claim is that a skill system based on time "instead" of player choice is a thing, I defy you to find a build simulator for EVE Online and defend your argument there.

Edited by goose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.