Sir_Miserable

Am I missing something?

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3 minutes ago, Gummiel said:

So you are saying it is not my own choice that I go down the exploration line, instead of the combat line?, did the game somehow make that choice for me all on its own, with me having no impact on it? Again know the words before you use them.

When did I say the game chose for you? Chill bro.
A specialist can't do everything, that's no rocket science... Unless you chose to define a specialist a guy who filled is skill-tree, fine then.

Edited by Skolven

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Just now, Skolven said:

When did I say the game chose for you? Chill bro.

You didn't say it verbatim, but you implied it very explicitly. You said that skills generated over time existed instead of player choice. If that isn't what you meant, you did a poor job of explaining what you meant.

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4 minutes ago, goose said:

You seem to be assuming that character specialization will be derived from the Archetype skill trees.

I think pretty much by now judging by the snowflakes I've offended, specialization appears to be relative, so yeah, screw this...

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1 minute ago, goose said:

You said that skills generated over time existed instead of player choice.

In the end, if with time everyone's skill tree fills up, where's your choice? Only in which order you put them. Get real.

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2 minutes ago, Skolven said:

In the end, if with time everyone's skill tree fills up, where's your choice? Only in which order you put them. Get real.

Uhh. On a timeline measured in years, with significant chunks of stats gated behind months of continuous training, I'd say....the order matters a LOT.

Again, clearly you are unaware of the existence of EVE Online, so maybe check that out?

4 minutes ago, Skolven said:

I think pretty much by now judging by the snowflakes I've offended, specialization appears to be relative, so yeah, screw this...

lol. Irony.

Edited by goose

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1 minute ago, goose said:

Uhh. On a timeline measured in years, with significant chunks of stats gated behind months of continuous training, I'd say....the order matters a LOT.

Again, clearly you are unaware of the existence of EVE Online, so maybe check that out?

That song again. Skills are not even 20% named. Make observations based out of what you got, not what's promised.

Edited by Skolven

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Just now, Skolven said:

That song again. Skills are not even 20% named.

I...was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Gummiel said that you don't know what words mean, but I tried to find the core of the apparent misunderstanding and help you through to the other side of it. But not only are you clearly just trolling at this point, judging by your total lack of interest in learning anything, but...that post meant nothing, which is leading me to believe there is either a language barrier or that Gummiel had the right idea.

Either way, since you are clearly not interested in this being a productive discussion, feel free to be done with it any time.

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7 minutes ago, goose said:

ither way, since you are clearly not interested in this being a productive discussion

 I only wanted to answer this tread's question, if you guys think that you arguing on my definition of specialization is making of me a troll, so be it, like I said, I've answered all questions on a partial basis and I wasn't the one sending insults or using passive/agressive stuff mate! Peace

Edited by Skolven

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36 minutes ago, Skolven said:

A specialization depends on player's choice, the skill system actually depends on time, that's where I see a big difference on the fundamentals.

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't want to assume anything you meant by anything you said in the thread.

I'll just say I disagree. I don't feel like bickering today over words.

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You're not missing anything, this is how the "game" currently is and it seems to be a common first impression as well. It's an extreme grindy harvesting experience with tedious RNG thrown into crafting. Behind the crafting wall is your character's progression, both statistically and play wise since you need to craft disciplines to get access to more abilities. The devs are trying to appease three types of people; harvesters, crafters and killers. However playing a harvester is more akin to being part of a slave caste. It's joyless and boring. I guess the argument could be made; "without a grind, how will you get players invested and willing to come back", and to that I say, "just make a fun game that doesn't feel like a second job and they will come".

I will say this tho, the recent harvesting changes have helped a bit, but the act of harvesting is still a sluggish bore. The way harvesting skill lines are constructed is also a real issue that needs to be tackled.

And on the subject of character specialization? Like I mentioned before, that's all behind harvesting / crafting.

Edited by Helix

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10 hours ago, Skolven said:

First choices are aesthetical choices so far, as attributes are not defined. Later on will it be changed? Do devs will do as they say they will? No one can tell, so I won't assume. Some players think its gonna be only flavor attribute, with no real impacts on gameplay.
Skills are my major focus as a new player because they're so far the more stable/reliable source of stats improvement with a direct impact on gameplay. I can't craft advanced gear yet, everytime they just break and understand I gotta invest in appropriate skills but I believe they also play a big role as well in stats.
Its about knowing what will make you a better tank, CCer, healer and optimize it, of course there's plenty of way to improve it it so far but I would call it specialization, just progression.

My point about specialization is that you voluntarily chose to close avenues to get new ones. A concrete example would be to access a skill tree, let's say Champion, and remove a  pip on a defensive skill node, to have it added to another skill of another attack skill node. So that defensive node would now have 4 pips available only instead of 5, but that other attack skill (let's say it's specifically increase % crit) would have 6 pips instead , allowing to reach 1.2% crit instead of a normally 1%, while sacrificing your armor bonus +10 to +8.
That would further specialize you into a offensive meleer.

A specialization depends on player's choice, the skill system actually depends on time, that's where I see a big difference on the fundamentals.
 

The original plan was to allow training beyond 100%.   We haven't heard much about this in a long while but still believe it will do exactly what you say...   give 6+ bars of a skill Up to 200% (10) at the cost of much higher TTT (thus diminished returns).    Yet again, skill training is not a priority in this game, taking and holding territory and protecting your harvesting crews is...   

I have crafted hundreds of weapons and dozens of sets of armor with a less than 5% fail rate...   in 5.3 testing with a skill reset, yes, I have failed more here at the start but still have made dozens of pieces successfully in a week and have 1000s of materials on hand to make more.   The issue isn't with the system but rather with the expectation that an unskilled crafter could even make an advanced weapon...   its gonna have crap stats because you have no experimentation skill, it's gonna FAIL 35% of the time because you have no crafting assembly skill.   They gave us cheater potions to alleviate that for testing.   Yet, if you choose to put your time bank into combat skills, you are in NO position to complain about how weak you are at crafting.

If you haven't figured it out yet...   here's a helpful hint.  Train crafting first if you only get one account into the 5.3 testing at first.   Why?   Because the chests give blue quality mats and a crafter in about two weeks and a little will start to have more and better experimentation and better gear and will beat passive combat skills any day.  It probably goes against every leet narcissistic bone in your body, but as long as blue mats drop without harvest training, crafting pips and experimentation is winning.
 

Edited by Frykka

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10 hours ago, Skolven said:

I think pretty much by now judging by the snowflakes I've offended, specialization appears to be relative, so yeah, screw this...

The only snowflake anyone is seeing here is you, kid.   You have NO experience and no knowledge and simply spew garbage.   The term snowflake is reserved for us bleeding heart liberals...  those of us with the humanity to want a better world.   You don't offend anyone Skolven, you just make an ass of yourself speaking without knowledge.   The carebear in the room is you, the one who wants PvE content to go grind...   like others have said, Koreans have your kind of games.  Most of us were done with that hogwash a long time ago.

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A Jedi once told me that anyone who has less reputation than posts is probably a toxic or negative element to the forums.  The wisdom is to realize we are here to make a successful sandbox campaign based on experience.   You probably weren't out of diapers when we were PvPing in UO, SWG, DAOC or Shadowbane but that is none of your fault.  What is your fault is not doing your due diligence to research this project so that your input would align with the stated goals and values of the Dev team.   You can fix your ignorance and either move on or participate...   We know we are fighting an uphill battle but the opportunity exists now and the product is a work in progress.

I suggested the "weak point" wack-a-mole active harvesting way, way back and although I might not be the sole author of the idea, I am happy with the results...   something different and better than holding F.   It feels good to play and to know I had input also feels good...   If that is why you are here, to influence the game within its stated goals and systems, we do welcome you...   another kid with a dozens posts asking for things well outside the games scope is simply not welcome, period.

Edited by Frykka

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6 minutes ago, Frykka said:

The carebear in the room is you, the one who wants PvE content to go grind...

The interesting part of what he's said and how he doesn't like the way the game is being developed comes from his experiences in Albion Online. It's a garbage game that has system after system and layers of content (PvE) that requires someone to grind in order to progress. Nobody on these forums has posted that they're excited and jumping out of their chair at the idea of ripping apart literately 1,000,000 tree, rock, ore, and hide nodes to unlock some spell for a piece of gear to be able to do it all over again. You have to do that in Albion.

Rewarding someone who plays 5 hours more than someone else is ridiculous. I experienced that in Albion and the feeling I got was being punished for having a full time job, family and friends to spend time with, and non-gaming hobbies that are extremely important to my life style. In addition to that, if you were a gatherer, you had to literately specialize in gathering only one resource instead of covering all four because the time sink involved in actively leveling up the gathering skill to use higher tier tools for those resources would go up by leaps and bounds.

Pretty stupid progression system.

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10 hours ago, Skolven said:

That song again. Skills are not even 20% named. Make observations based out of what you got, not what's promised.

This is pure ignorance and a result of being new here.   The skills in the 5.2 builds all had names prior to 5.2.10 when they went to that generic code.   They aren't going to find why simply because they have completely changed the skill system mechanic for 5.3.   We saw those names for over a year.  That build is no longer in testing, the new build has names along with its own issues like being incredibly boring and far more a horizontal progression...   you don't get much at a time for the wait.   Skills will get another pass or two down the road.

The real telling issue you will have is evidenced by your challenging someone to a duel...   most of us would accept and then come with 10 players to wipe the floor with you.   Why?   because individuals playing solo are fodder, particularly in battle.  My pride does not need to best you 1v1...   I'll bring a pure healer to show why that premise is silly.   This game is GvG, RvR, your individual skill could help your group because "NOT DYING" is good yet, honestly, in game, you aren't going to be worth my time.

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25 minutes ago, entityofsin said:

The interesting part of what he's said and how he doesn't like the way the game is being developed comes from his experiences in Albion Online. It's a garbage game that has system after system and layers of content (PvE) that requires someone to grind in order to progress. Nobody on these forums has posted that they're excited and jumping out of their chair at the idea of ripping apart literately 1,000,000 tree, rock, ore, and hide nodes to unlock some spell for a piece of gear to be able to do it all over again. You have to do that in Albion.

Rewarding someone who plays 5 hours more than someone else is ridiculous. I experienced that in Albion and the feeling I got was being punished for having a full time job, family and friends to spend time with, and non-gaming hobbies that are extremely important to my life style. In addition to that, if you were a gatherer, you had to literately specialize in gathering only one resource instead of covering all four because the time sink involved in actively leveling up the gathering skill to use higher tier tools for those resources would go up by leaps and bounds.

Pretty stupid progression system.

I also lost interest in Albion due to the PvP dungeons...   I liked the skill wheel in the first beta, not sure of all the changes that came with the extra beta or with launch.   Met some great folks there tho...   some who will likely be good respectful competition here in CF.  

Edited by Frykka

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21 hours ago, Sir_Miserable said:

Am I missing something?  Have I misunderstood something fundamental?

I’ve had Crowfall for one week.  Here are my thoughts.

 YES!   you are missing something.   We are all saying that.

 

Resource gathering - a tedious grindfest.

Crafting – I tried making a non-basic sword.  There are maybe 20 (maybe more) failure opportunities.  The crafting failed.  I tried something else.  The crafting failed.  I could not be bothered to go through the tedious RNG gather grind failure charade again.
Use the free "testing" crafting potions (3).   

 

Crafting Skills – If I train crafting exclusively for 69 days, I’ll be quite good at crafting BASIC items.  If I then train woodworking exclusively for another 168 days, I will have mastered woodworking.  Wow. 
You be missing that in that build you only need to complete 60% of a node to move on (80% in 5.3).  Also, you need not fully train all basic crafting at all to move to Blacksmithing.  It takes about 2 weeks to unlock an advanced craft and start getting real results.

 

Combat skills - If I train for a mere 329 days, I can complete the knight skill tree.  So I will have a full strength knight at this time?  No.  I need to train on the combat tree (but not at the same time as crafting).  Basic combat tree 126 days.  81 days for melee weapons.  185 days for armour.  Possibly another tree that I’m not sure what its for.  However, to be a truly effective warrior, there are quite a few exploration skills you need.  Skilltree 58, the one that buffs your stats, 186 days.  I’ve just approximately added up the numbers on the trees.  If there’s a different mechanic that I don’t know about, then whatever.
The key word you use is NEED.   You don't need it all, in fact you need far less than you state.   Actually you need nothing except wits to go out in the world and play the game.   Themepark games have conditioned you to NOT play (PvP) until you are stronk enough to win a duel, a fallacy of epic proportions simply because you should never or rarely play CF solo.

 

 

Campaigns – 95% of the map is pointless filler – a problem with procedural generation.

The website makes a big deal of Uncle Bob playing Risk without a restart mechanic and how this makes him unassailable and this is a problem which Crowfall won’t have.  But of course it will.  Due to the insane skill trees, new players will be at a HUGE disadvantage compared to the old players who will be able to gank them mercilessly.  Guilds and organised player groups will just magnify this effect (more likely to be the old players).  The view that everyone has the opportunity to start a campaign on an equal footing just sounds like absolute garbage.  It’s like saying that the new born child and the fully grown grizzly bear are on an equal footing because neither of them has a sword.  And if a campaign lasts a year?  Do you not think that this is EXACTLY the Uncle Bob scenario?   

 And if you didn't have to carry your goods across these, LOL, vast distances how would there be any danger in getting resources?  Things are far away so that other players have a chance to catch you with your pants down and (because you are) loaded with quarters.  The maps are going to get very much bigger than tiny tyranny.

 

So I liked the concept – which is why I spent my money, but the strategic implementation seems hugely, fundamentally flawed. 

 

Edited by Frykka

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4 minutes ago, Frykka said:

I also lost interest in Albion due to the PvP dungeons...

Albion Online is garbage cause it went through 3 years of horrible beta tests. Plus the company doesn't listen to its players and gives them content they don't want, like more PvE trash content, instanced arena pvp with no risks. It still fails to even bring forth the vision of what it originally was going to be. Oh well.. it can stay on life support and evaporate into nothing as far as I am concerned.

It's an example, along with all the other overly stupid grindy MMOs, of what not to bring to Crowfall.

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I wonder if everyone who complains about the crafting RNG has actually spent much time crafting.  I have spent all of my time gathering and crafting and I have to say I LOVE the crafting system.  It's amazing.  My guess is the people complaining about failure are too impatient and blow all their points in one go.  If you're not trained then try 1 point at a time.  I promise you'll get a better result.

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