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Action Harvesting Part Deux - Official Discussion Thread


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Hey there .. liked the details of the post. I wanted to ask @thomasblair if he could expand on his answer from Tuesday as it aligns with the info from this article about weak points.

I asked about what impacts the output from final proc of the node, and we have seen Harvest Critical Amount and Harvest Critical Chance in place for a long time. We have been trying to maximize it like crazy and your comment about the 'testing pots' were spot on .. these inflated values were filling our coffers with very little effort. 

What is still confusing (at least to me) is the Weakness Critical Chance and Weakness Critical Amount you mentioned in response to my question. They of course seem to be tied to the damage done by striking a weak point, but your answer also made it 'feel' like they impacted output "4 stats for Damage crits and 4 stats for Yield crits."  is there any way you could story board this out? 

at 1:06:50 in is where you dive into my question and talk about Weak Point stats

Edited by Anhrez

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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With the Connoisseur Discipline one of the abilities is Finer Things which "Increases change to harvest node exotic items".  Does this ability require the passive skill training to have those exotic items to drop? Or does it allow those exotic items to drop without that passive training?

Official Moderator of the Community Crowfall Discord!  Come join the discussion @ https://discord.me/crowfall

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6 minutes ago, Weebles said:

With the Connoisseur Discipline one of the abilities is Finer Things which "Increases change to harvest node exotic items".  Does this ability require the passive skill training to have those exotic items to drop? Or does it allow those exotic items to drop without that passive training?

We have heard that this enables Heartwood and Hungershards to drop for people testing, no luck on the 'finer things' from motherlodes yet but we will surely keep trying 

 

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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26 minutes ago, Weebles said:

With the Connoisseur Discipline one of the abilities is Finer Things which "Increases change to harvest node exotic items".  Does this ability require the passive skill training to have those exotic items to drop? Or does it allow those exotic items to drop without that passive training?

Finner Things is an active buff that lasts 7s and costs 2 Harvesting Pips. It increases the chance of exotics dropping by 5%. I've gotten it to work with both skinning (for hunger shards) and logging (for heartwood) without having any base training in exploration for either shards or heartwood. 

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It is much much better than hold F to harvest. 

I still think that the buffs need to apply to your group for each person doing it.

And there needs to be multiple buckets on the node for the highest stats of those doing 20% to it.  Otherwise you get some VERY problematic issues with crits from weak points and helpers with PH1 and you with  PH 3/4/5.

Especially with 25% variable drops from those two interactions. 

If I have a helper on a normal gold node. rank 5. It has 50 armor and 1000 hit points. So 250 damage breaks each part. And you get a roll on the PH table. 

I hit the node with a +25 pick. Helper hits the node with a basic pick so +0
I hit with no energetic harvesting for 75
Helper hits for 50.
I hit the node for 75.
Helper hits the node for 50. Break point. So far so good. I did 150, helper did 100. I have 2 hits so does he. Node is at 750.

I hit the node for 75
Helper hits the weak point for a bonus 75. Node is at 600
I hit the node for 75.
Helper hits the weak point for 75. Breaks node 25% Nodes at 450hps.  But who did the most damage? Does it carry over from 100% I did. If it recalculates from the break point who gets the stat roll for the break point. 
.
Remember this is 4 hits. Now we have a choice for the harvesting. Node is at 450.
I hit my 1 key and get Heightened Harvest Now we are cooking with gas. This delays my swing slightly but still hit faster than helper. (This time)
I hit the node for 75. Gain pip1. 
Helper hits the node for 50. Node is at 325.
I hit my 1key spending 1 pip. Gaining Ultra Energetic Harvest! (Which I assume gives 10% because tooltips don't work over buffs so we have no way of knowing)Sadly this delays me again. Letting helper hit first. Remember node is at 325.
Helper now hits. Does a weak point. 75 damage. Node is at 250 and breaks.

Helper has done more damage than me. We get nothing for the break point.   
I hit the node, Boosted by 10%. so I hit for 88. (Rounded up) Node is at 162
Helper hits the node gets a weak point (Because he is a lucky bastard who never listens to directions.)
Helper hits for 75 damage. Node is at 87 hps. 
I hit it for 88 hit points and node destruction happens. 

I have the skills trained so have not bothered with the disc since it is a combat zone and I want to keep my combat discs. But drank a flask. So I am at ph3. Helper is at ph1. and ruined 1 of the break points. If helper at 5 pips hit Ruinous harvest he would blow my damage out the water and have ruined the node destruction roll as well. 

You need to set it up so helpers are not a detriment. So that they are more than just helping the node go down faster. When it can screw things up. 

I have already had to tell helpers do not help. And it makes me feel bad. They just want to do the neat thing that folks are doing. And with the current system explaining why it is not helping takes me 30 minutes typing. 

Give us multiple buckets for the breakpoints and node destruction. Give us the energetic harvesting as group buffs so helpers can use the system. 

And give us some base 10% chance to crit. and the weak points adding 1% to crit chance and crit amount per weak point hit up to a max of 5 per node destruction. 

Please?

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What everyone really wants to know..

How do we increase the quality and amounts of what we harvest?

I haven’t seen blues, purples or epics ( and I know our skills aren’t trained up.

and most importantly

when will the vessel system come online?

When disciplines don’t cost an ore and we can’t switch them on a whim no one will want their main toon to have to wander the map equipping harvesting disciplines. Combat is too important and losing has consequences.

We will need the ability to switch out loud outs between

full harvesting,

combat-harvesting

full Combat builds.

otherwise it will end up an Alt fest with everyone buying additional accounts.

 

www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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Newer class designs have featured less to zero chaining or branching 'combo powers' [e.g. cleric or assassin] compared to earlier class designs [which never explored the possibilities fully either in my view]

With limited tray slots and numbers of powers, this seems a shame.

Will you possibly apply such a 'multiple power in one' button to the class or combat discipline level? [or even 'weak spot' like elements!]


When will we see the 'action harvesting' be activated to damage walls/trees in the context of sieges rather than normal combat powers?

 

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Action harvesting is definitely a huge improvement over just holding down a key. It would be nice if we could get weak spots that have the same look and feel as what Fortnite has. However for a first iteration this is pretty good. 

Edited by Zybak
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Looking good! Definitely keep up the good work, though. Don't get complacent with it. Now it's at least an engaging system. I honestly still think the whole quarter thresholds system could be made more intuitive, or replaced with something that's more intuitive. Actively juggling combos and timings of buffs and such to maximize efficiency doesn't group together very well with "but make sure X things are in effect whenever the node hits Y health, exactly!". I'm not saying it's impossible to do or too hard. It's more that it just doesn't flow together very well. I honestly believe that stuff like the weak spots, and other direct rewards to your active engagement with the system is what should be focused upon.

Maybe I'm crazy, though. *shrug*. I still say the idea of "you get bonus harvesting time because the node didn't break yet!" would be a great idea. Or, rather, before I was describing a system in which maybe people were trying to do as little damage as possible to the node, then award doobers either per-whack (based on chance), or per-critical-whack, etc. This made sense to me, but wasn't quite as intuitive to others. Well, I realize now that the purest idea there was simply to prolong the harvesting window to increase the quantity of opportunities. So, what if, instead of trying to do as little damage as possible to the node, you had a system of effects that contributed to the node's chance of not-breaking?

Think of old side-scroller beat'em ups, when you'd get to the boss, and he'd have like 2 health bars or something at the top of the screen. You'd take him down, and you'd get a little "cut-scene" of him seemingly being defeated. But he'd go "GRRRGH!", angrily rip his shades off his face and crush them in his hand, wipe the blood off his mouth, throw his coat to the ground, then "grow" another health bar and keep fighting you. Well, in that instance, you were upset, because it was just more fighting you had to survive. However, with a resource node, it would be a "Yay! I get a chance at further doobers!" So, instead of the 1/4, 1/2, etc. thresholds, you could just give the nodes stacking health bars. Then, either give some kind of chance to add a health bar in the middle of the harvesting process, OR have some kind of chance on the last hit that the node won't die, but will rather just degrade and proc another health bar.

*shrug*. It's a very general idea. I couldn't say exactly when and under what circumstances to do this. Maybe only do something like this for Motherlodes? But, if you're going to have active "action" harvesting, then the thought process for maximizing doober gains needs to be an active one as well. It doesn't need to be a cold, calculated "Okay, so, 23 whacks from now, what state do we want things to be in when we deliver the doober-granting whack?" while you're getting into an action rhythm of in-the-moment effect juggling. I very highly recommend making the doober gains and bonuses of effects shift towards rewards for best-exploiting these short-term active bonuses and effects. The easiest system that comes to mind is a cumulative gains system. As in "for these 10 seconds, you used a bunch of effects really well so that 3 of your hits earned you 2 bonus doobers of +1 quality level." If you want to pay out the doobers at each 1/4 of node health, that's fine. Just make the payout points very visually clear. OR, wait 'til the node breaks and make it doober-pinata. Either way. I think the earning of doobers during the active process works better than worrying about which effects will be in-place during a break-point event.

Just my eleventeen cents. :P

To re-iterate, THIS IS LODES BETTER THAN THE SYSTEM FROM ONLY A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO, so good on you guys, and keep up the good work! Definitely headed down a much better path for this stuff!

This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

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That was really great! Glad to see work being done on the LMB methods so all can enjoy energetic harvesting.

Request for future info dumps on harvesting:  Can you do a deep dive on what all the modifiers are and what they do?

  • Beneficial Harvest
  • Beneficial Harvest Chance
  • Beneficial Harvest Effects
  • Beneficial Harvest Lifetime
  • Beneficial Harvest Power
  • Harvest Critical Amount
  • Harvest Critical Chance
  • Harvest Weak Spot Chance
  • Plentiful Harvest
  • Plentiful Resources
  • etc...

Thanks for the great work on making harvesting more interactive and interesting.

P.S. All the Group Leadership modifiers too!

Edited by Cordite
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3 hours ago, Lephys said:

Looking good! Definitely keep up the good work, though. Don't get complacent with it. Now it's at least an engaging system. I honestly still think the whole quarter thresholds system could be made more intuitive, or replaced with something that's more intuitive. Actively juggling combos and timings of buffs and such to maximize efficiency doesn't group together very well with "but make sure X things are in effect whenever the node hits Y health, exactly!". I'm not saying it's impossible to do or too hard. It's more that it just doesn't flow together very well. I honestly believe that stuff like the weak spots, and other direct rewards to your active engagement with the system is what should be focused upon.

Maybe I'm crazy, though. *shrug*. I still say the idea of "you get bonus harvesting time because the node didn't break yet!" would be a great idea. Or, rather, before I was describing a system in which maybe people were trying to do as little damage as possible to the node, then award doobers either per-whack (based on chance), or per-critical-whack, etc. This made sense to me, but wasn't quite as intuitive to others. Well, I realize now that the purest idea there was simply to prolong the harvesting window to increase the quantity of opportunities. So, what if, instead of trying to do as little damage as possible to the node, you had a system of effects that contributed to the node's chance of not-breaking?

Think of old side-scroller beat'em ups, when you'd get to the boss, and he'd have like 2 health bars or something at the top of the screen. You'd take him down, and you'd get a little "cut-scene" of him seemingly being defeated. But he'd go "GRRRGH!", angrily rip his shades off his face and crush them in his hand, wipe the blood off his mouth, throw his coat to the ground, then "grow" another health bar and keep fighting you. Well, in that instance, you were upset, because it was just more fighting you had to survive. However, with a resource node, it would be a "Yay! I get a chance at further doobers!" So, instead of the 1/4, 1/2, etc. thresholds, you could just give the nodes stacking health bars. Then, either give some kind of chance to add a health bar in the middle of the harvesting process, OR have some kind of chance on the last hit that the node won't die, but will rather just degrade and proc another health bar.

*shrug*. It's a very general idea. I couldn't say exactly when and under what circumstances to do this. Maybe only do something like this for Motherlodes? But, if you're going to have active "action" harvesting, then the thought process for maximizing doober gains needs to be an active one as well. It doesn't need to be a cold, calculated "Okay, so, 23 whacks from now, what state do we want things to be in when we deliver the doober-granting whack?" while you're getting into an action rhythm of in-the-moment effect juggling. I very highly recommend making the doober gains and bonuses of effects shift towards rewards for best-exploiting these short-term active bonuses and effects. The easiest system that comes to mind is a cumulative gains system. As in "for these 10 seconds, you used a bunch of effects really well so that 3 of your hits earned you 2 bonus doobers of +1 quality level." If you want to pay out the doobers at each 1/4 of node health, that's fine. Just make the payout points very visually clear. OR, wait 'til the node breaks and make it doober-pinata. Either way. I think the earning of doobers during the active process works better than worrying about which effects will be in-place during a break-point event.

Just my eleventeen cents. :P

To re-iterate, THIS IS LODES BETTER THAN THE SYSTEM FROM ONLY A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO, so good on you guys, and keep up the good work! Definitely headed down a much better path for this stuff!

Interesting ideas, kind of like it, but you do have to keep in mind, that yes you want to try and get as much doopers as possible, but there is ALSO a reason to get it done as fast as possible, since every 2nd spent harvesting that node, will be another second an enemy can come and attack you. That said that whole thing could be interesting to play with, giving you an option to take it slow but get a lot more out of it, but maybe only get stuff (or at least only the bonus) at the end, making it a sort of risk vs. reward, so if you are properly protected by good combat player, you could got for a slower but more rewarding approach, where as if you escort is not as great, or you are alone, you might want to opts for a faster destruction, but at the cost of getting less mats from it, but takes too long you might never get your bonus since you never got the node down. Ofc such a system would need very obvious clues, maybe the node would start to glow more and more as the bonus grows, or you could have maybe have more straight cracks/cuts/etc. as the node begins to go down (ie you been doing cleaner cuts in the rocks trees etc, making more parts of it usable after) vs cracks/cuts/etc. that are jsut all over the place, essentially meaning a lot of wasted and useless rock or splinters etc.)

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On 11/16/2017 at 11:36 AM, srathor said:

It is much much better than hold F to harvest. 

I still think that the buffs need to apply to your group for each person doing it.......snipped for brevity.....

.............Give us the energetic harvesting as group buffs so helpers can use the system.......snip

I second that recommendation. It wouldn't have to be "energetic harvesting" per se.....it could be "beneficial harvest" as a group buff for example. (or some other mechanic that gives a reward for grouping)

  • BH 1 - for 1 extra member in group
  • BH 2 - for 2
  • BH 3 - for 3......

I really believe there should be a distinct reason for grouping up as harvesters from Day 1 of a campaign. [I personally feel that reward should be quantity of doobers because 2+ harvesters may want to share the rewards]

Edited by Cordite
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5 hours ago, Lephys said:

Looking good! Definitely keep up the good work, though. Don't get complacent with it. Now it's at least an engaging system. I honestly still think the whole quarter thresholds system could be made more intuitive, or replaced with something that's more intuitive. Actively juggling combos and timings of buffs and such to maximize efficiency doesn't group together very well with "but make sure X things are in effect whenever the node hits Y health, exactly!". I'm not saying it's impossible to do or too hard. It's more that it just doesn't flow together very well. I honestly believe that stuff like the weak spots, and other direct rewards to your active engagement with the system is what should be focused upon.

 

I personally think they should consider that hitting a weak spot be the same as the 25/50/75, and maybe even drop the 25/50/75 for it.

I think that would feel more natural and intuitive, and let them keep the starting chance of producing a weak spot high enough that they happen rather frequently, and give clear reward for additional workers, as each one would have their own chance to produce a weak spot.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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... I tried this method of harvesting yesterday on the TEST environment and spent about half an hour just to have fun with alternate-clicking :)

This was the first time I got a glimpse of the joy someone may feel by being a harvester in this game :)

Just a feedback: for me it seems the weak spot-hits only register, if I put my crosshair EXACTLY on the crosshair of the weak spot - being inside the white circle seems not to work - maybe it's a latency problem as I get high pings, connecting from EU to the TEST environment.

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5 hours ago, lichtqu4nt said:

... I tried this method of harvesting yesterday on the TEST environment and spent about half an hour just to have fun with alternate-clicking :)

This was the first time I got a glimpse of the joy someone may feel by being a harvester in this game :)

Just a feedback: for me it seems the weak spot-hits only register, if I put my crosshair EXACTLY on the crosshair of the weak spot - being inside the white circle seems not to work - maybe it's a latency problem as I get high pings, connecting from EU to the TEST environment.

Same for me had to be pin-point accurate for weak spots, also from EU, though if its a matter of you can be less accurate with training and/or the right gear and still hit it, I wouldn't mind as well either. (specially on rocks though it could be really hard to actually see your crosshair (or should I say dothair?)

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Some feedback from trying the new action harvesting on TEST 5.3:

Pros:

- Weak spot system is much more engaging than Hold F.

-  Survival tray is more intuitive with slots for consumables and non-combat powers/passives.

Mixed:

- Applying the Pip system to harvesting is a fun idea, and feels action-y. However, what each different buff provides is confusing, and none of them give me what I really want = more doobers.

Cons:

- The system doesn't work well for groups. Group harvesting mechanics are difficult to understand, and other than guard duty (boring for pvpers) doesn't seem to improve the results.

- Action harvesting didn't solve the biggest problem I have with the current system - it feels like too much grind! The amount of resources we get for the time spent is way too low (based on recipe requirements), the pvp risk is too high (all training, gear, discs, consumables going to harvesting +  dizzydown are big disadvantages).

tiPrpwh.png

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