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This crafting system ROCKS!!!


Wayoun
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Okay it's pretty common to see people complaining about the RNG in the crafting system.  I've found several ways to mitigate this problem.  Use one point at a time.  Get trained.  Craft gear that improves your chances.  This has been debated several places and feel free to do so here if you like.  However what I'm hoping for is to hear only from the people who've focused solely on crafting (including training).

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I haven't touched the system in a while as I have been waiting for further changes and the availability of additional skills and updates.  Edit:  Most of this writing is based on what I think is a good system in terms of player interaction.  Some of it, Crowfall may already have in a way.  But there is always room for improvement and I intend to be harsh (and oft over the top / exaggerating ) since I think the team is doing a great job as a whole.  Timestamp of this edit takes place after my second post for clarity (and wasn't seen by the OP).


Though as it stands now -- as I haven't heard of any substantial updates -- it's just a mini game or side feature to the much improved Harvesting system.  A slot machine RNG system, if you will.  Therefore, I'd say that it's just an extension of harvesting without any charm of being a crafter.  There is nothing but gathering materials and then playing the slot machine; no chance to feel like a crafter at all and therefore doesn't deserve its own tree.  It should be moved to the Harvesting tree in its current state or combined into an "economic" tree with them both, as it has no right to be called crafting.  


My harsh criticism comes from the fact that I exclusively play games and MMOs for any type of crafting system that they have.  It's just been my favorite thing to do every since Ultima Online.  Though crafting systems as seen in Crowfall are in the category that I've dubbed "half-assed" as, by comparison, nothing about it makes me feel like a crafter.  I don't have any control over certain "RNG" and "Gambling" aspects of it.  It's just pull the slot, with the currency being what I harvested (thus me saying it might as well just be a part of harvesting, or a harvesting mini-game).  If it had choice and skills and rotations, then I could see a bit more value.  To be able to decide if I want to craft something with a low chance of super stats, but 100% completion rate, or risk some things.  It being my choice, and me saying "I shouldn't of done that" as opposed to the game deciding for me that it should be RNG.  Then additional mini-games similar to how crafting is a mini-game of harvesting now.  Break/melt down feature for materials, convertion system into a different type of item, etc.  Perhaps even targeting specific stats once I'm a proficient enough crafter so that I have some actual input.  


My current favorite system is where crafting is a meta in of itself; you have dozens of abilities, rotations, gear, story, etc. for it (though I don't expect story in a PvP / World building game like Crowfall).  You have to know your stuff and know what button to press in case something messes up -- which each button having percentage chance of success or failure (though able to sacrifice some durability to move that to 100%).  Then the durability, quality and craft meter whereby if you reach 0 Durability before 100% crafted it's a failure automatically.  Have to decide if you can put more % in quality or not.  With high quality materials giving bonuses to quality usage.  It moves things from "I HATE THIS GAME." when it decides it fails for you, versus "I shouldn't of done that... ugh!  My bad."  That's the difference between a crafting system and a mini-game subsystem of harvesting.


It's a bit more complex, yes.  There is a lot more to it than I'm writing here (went into more depth in another post).  But you're actually involved.  You feel like a crafter that has to make decisions and acquire new abilities.  Even using new abilities on old crafts to ensure they're the highest quality avilable of that type / resource used.  With harder metal and the like increasing difficulty, as well as technique required to make.  I'd even say it makes things harder as a whole, as you new a harvester's stuff while also knowing your way around an anvil.  The game right now just uses "RNG" as a basis of getting something "good" to be "difficult" and "valuable".  I say it could make crafting more involved and still do that.  Give more depth.  Allow the targeting of certain things to experienced crafters (and not just harvesters).  There could still be the usual form of "this has max value stats of what you chose" versus "this is okay" -- a Diablo 2 sort of thing where you could have something like +15-+25 minimum / perfect stats for a chosen category.  


A general weakness in RNG is both a lack of control and feeling great (most of the time instead of a slot machine "finally!"; the system itself can feel great and you can still get perfect stats as described above).  How much control versus random you have.  With there being sprinkles of both from the get go.  The percentage of each ability's success or sacrifice of durability and pips to make it happen for sure.  100% success if you manage to get 100% crafted meter at the cost of some quality meter.  Then the stats, with a potential for higher amount depending on the quality.  Or flat out Higher Quality versions that also increase armor slightly.  Then perhaps a random stat(s) of ones you didn't target.  Difficulty to create can make highly sought after items -- though that difficulty need not be an exceedingly easy (previously described as "half-assed") slot machine.  The complexity and depth involved in the craft of something also deters from people flooding items (or at least more meaningful ones; there could be an auto-create feature that has a much lower chance of being good and without a targeting prospect as you aren't personally involved).  Suddenly even weak items have some worth -- or there are systems in place to use said items in other ways with additional break down systems.  With the breaking down of valuable items potentially giving unique crafting items that are only available from such (or a higher percent for those with higher quality).  Needed to craft amazing items.


As it stands now, I just collect items and press buttons.  Then potentially get angry.  What if I were to call my item the "Lightning Blade of Kalzinath?"  ...And it proc'd a low level fire attribute?  This is just as an example as the system for such is based on materials (edit for clarity since this is mentioned in the next paragraph, 3:05 AM: Example of the importance of control, and not of how the system works; originally did not have these parentheses and didn't mention materials, though I did state it was just an example not to be taken seriously due to the system we have -- For new crows' information, materials can determine this, which is part of the reason of what I meant when it came to talking about crafting just feeling like a mini-game of the Harvesting feature.  Especially after it's action updates), naturally, but also shows the importance to a crafter of targeting things or having a certain level of knowing that comes from know how.  Not just as a crafter, but from a role playing perspective.

 

As for the crafting system "Rocking"... Well.  I agree with you.  As the main thing is hitting rocks to be able to play this harvesting mini-game.  It has some mild input, but it's so mild that I don't even recognize it as such in its current state or it is a part of the harvesting system to begin with.

Edited by Sindothyx

Dare to dream.  Never be satisfied with what is.  We're restricted by time and money.  But if we do not dare to dream, we will never improve efficiently when opportunity strikes.

Each feature has its own meta; it's own audience.  Who prefers simplicity versus intricate complexity?  Who does not?  When does it provide meaningful depth to a specific structure or economy?  Is there a way to implement both?  How many characters will they control?  And their options?

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@Sindothyx You used a lot of words to say one thing.  You wish there was an interactive portion to the crafting.  That seems like a pretty good idea.  However you also clearly illustrated that you've not used the system much. 

First off you know that the type of bonuses you get are not random?  Your Lighting vs Fire procs are clearly defined by the materials you use.  Randomness only comes into play with how strong the bonus is.  Plus wouldn't you name your weapon after making it?

Second you do have the choice to acquire a very high success rate.  Granted it takes some training and forethought, but if you're not going to train as a crafter or put thought into what you're doing then why complain about the system?  (Additional hint: If you want the resource combos for assembly success stat bonus on your gear PM me and I'll give them to you).

Finally as far as a "half-assed" mini-game I imagine that's exactly how it seems to you because it sounds like you gave a "half-assed" attempt to figure it out and since it didn't have all the best qualities of every crafting system you can cherry pick you gave up before you even understood the basic concepts.

 

 

 

Edited by Wayoun
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50 minutes ago, Wayoun said:
50 minutes ago, Wayoun said:

@Sindothyx You used a lot of words to say one thing.  You wish there was an interactive portion to the crafting.  That seems like a pretty good idea.  However you also clearly illustrated that you've not used the system much. 

First off you know that the type of bonuses you get are not random.  Your Lighting vs Fire procs are clearly defined by the materials you use.  Randomness only comes into play with how strong the bonus is.  Plus wouldn't you name your weapon after making it?

Second you do have the choice to acquire a very high success rate.  Granted it takes some training and forethought, but if you're not going to train as a crafter or put thought into what your doing then why complain about the system.  (Additional hint: If you want the resource combos for assembly success stat bonus on your gear PM me and I'll give them to you).

Finally as far as a "half-assed" mini-game I imagine that's exactly how it seems to you because it sounds like you gave a "half-assed" attempt to figure it out and since it didn't have all the best qualities of every crafting system you can cherry pick you gave up before you even understood the basic concepts.

 

 

 

 

It seems that my "a lot of words" and going into depth of a good system that I currently enjoy is misconstrued as me saying there isn't a semblance of something present.  Or my generalization of crafting as a whole bringing about an err in articulation.  Indeed, I've scant mentioned -- only at the beginning and towards the end -- that it's been a while since I've fiddled with the system, and that there are semblances already present in the current system that I described (thinking this may be the case, I edited a few things a few minutes after I posted.  Still about 20 minutes prior to your post, but you may have missed it if you clicked fast enough).


My complaint with the actual game is the lack of depth when compared to others around, going back to them saying that they looked at previous games and thought they could do something better.  Opinions will be opinions thereof, but I believe they could do much, much better than what they have right now.  In fact, it is my assertion that most with experience in MMO crafting in the last 20 years would say that its current form could do with a bit of further interaction.  As with my previous post regarding this, and the original intent with this one, I want to feel like a crafter.  Though looking back, thinking purely of other games when writing as opposed to directly comparing -- in fact, no comparisons were made as I was just throwing words out of love for specific types of crafting -- does indeed have the implications that I was saying Crowfall doesn't have such, aside from my very minor caveats that weren't given much thought by comparison.


To be frank, it feels (the crafting itself and not the items it makes) like the worst crafting system that I've been involved in with a long time.  The lack of interaction, depth and difficulty is distracting me from other things about it.  Thus, I consistantly say I'm too harsh on it.  Indeed, I recall writing something similar just the other day that many people don't like the basis of it and perhaps overlook aspects before going into the same generalization of what I consider to be good interaction, thereby implying that Crowfall is void of such despite making no direct comparisons due to my own mindset of only talking about it.


To be honest, I am fighting with a want for each craft to take upwards of five minutes of choices, with dozens of rotations, methods, options, etc.  Wanting crafting to take almost all of my time up.  To invalidate the 8 accounts (I will do crafting almost 100% of my time one way or another if it isn't complex enough) I will have at launch due to being so complex that I won't need to log into any others.  In my first post regarding this, I said I would generally wait until the trees are updated and the like before going into depth on stats and the like; though that post was made maybe a month ago.  Perhaps more.  I still hold to that thought process despite my mind fluttering into what I explicitly proclaimed as an example when it comes to the lightning blade (and not a representation); also, crafters are oft commissioned to do specific work, and therefore you tend to know what you want to do.  The process itself tends to be very simplistic and quick, though a name can come before, during or with its use.  The owner may even name such.  


I believe the depth and difficulty in addition to resources makes for a stronger economy; those who go the extra miles are rewarded.  With the current system, I see crafting only being a mini-game to harvesting.  In fact, the specific resources being a defining nature of something was going to be an example of this, though in my haste to write I ended up making no comparisons at all and just wrote about my favorite system like a love letter.


As a whole, I tried to stand by my first post months ago in that I have no right to speak of specific stats and admit fault to any implications here.  Though I suppose my first post mentioned the mathmatics involved moreso than anything, so I could have mentioned it as concrete evidence to the assertion as a whole.


Lastly, I'll respect that you may enjoy how it is now.  As well as your remark that having more interaction -- the main point of my first post and the intended point here -- may be a good idea.  That was my original point, and I tried to go into depth of examples rather than offer nothing.   I already made the statement that it's been a long while since I've even logged onto crowfall, so I don't feel the need to apologize for misleading on that front.  Though I do admit the lack of comparisons when just speaking of a good system in general and how some of it was written in such a way to disclose ineptitude.  No one sentence saying Crowfall may have some of these things already counters that articulation, as that can easily be skipped over.

 

Edited by Sindothyx

Dare to dream.  Never be satisfied with what is.  We're restricted by time and money.  But if we do not dare to dream, we will never improve efficiently when opportunity strikes.

Each feature has its own meta; it's own audience.  Who prefers simplicity versus intricate complexity?  Who does not?  When does it provide meaningful depth to a specific structure or economy?  Is there a way to implement both?  How many characters will they control?  And their options?

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Trump has said  “I know words. I have the best words,” but he's not the only one.  At the beginning I expressed a hope to have people who understood Crowfall's crafting system to participate in this thread.  Unfortunately it seems my hopes were disappointed.  Fun usage of the English language though.  You must be a blast to roleplay with :D.

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17 minutes ago, Wayoun said:

Trump has said  “I know words. I have the best words,” but he's not the only one.  At the beginning I expressed a hope to have people who understood Crowfall's crafting system to participate in this thread.  Unfortunately it seems my hopes were disappointed.  Fun usage of the English language though.  You must be a blast to roleplay with :D.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

But to be precise, you said: " However what I'm hoping for is to hear only from the people who've focused solely on crafting (including training)."

Crafting is almost all I have done in this game, minus gathering and working with a laggy EK (around the time I stopped logging in; haven't played at all during the 24/7 tests).  Sometimes I just logged in to focus on the training and log out.  One might say that it's been my sole focus.  Beyond poor articulation and only putting in one or two caveats that Crowfall may already have some semblance of what I was talking about / think is an excellent system, I knew a fair bit about crafting and made mention that it's been a while.

That said, you agreed with the point I was trying to make and therefore I am satisfied.  The point could have been written more directly without examples, but it did bring something to the discussion if you acknowledged it.

Edited by Sindothyx

Dare to dream.  Never be satisfied with what is.  We're restricted by time and money.  But if we do not dare to dream, we will never improve efficiently when opportunity strikes.

Each feature has its own meta; it's own audience.  Who prefers simplicity versus intricate complexity?  Who does not?  When does it provide meaningful depth to a specific structure or economy?  Is there a way to implement both?  How many characters will they control?  And their options?

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You are correct. I agree that an interactive aspect added to the crafting system may be an interesting idea.  However it could also add to the tedium of hoops to jump through in the game.  There is already a realm of discovery to be had in the current system which I at least am satisfied with.  Regardless of how long it's been since you used the crafting system I can't believe that you could forget that benefit type to crafted items is not random.  From my perspective the worst thing we could have is for people who are unfamiliar with the system waxing eloquent and influencing the minds of new players and God forbid the developers.

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17 minutes ago, Wayoun said:

You are correct. I agree that an interactive aspect added to the crafting system may be an interesting idea.  However it could also add to the tedium of hoops to jump through in the game.  There is already a realm of discovery to be had in the current system which I at least am satisfied with.  Regardless of how long it's been since you used the crafting system I can't believe that you could forget that benefit type to crafted items is not random.  From my perspective the worst thing we could have is for people who are unfamiliar with the system waxing eloquent and influencing the minds of new players and God forbid the developers.

Poor choice of words / examples with that to show the importance of control.  I did mention it was just an example and not to be taken seriously, but I just now edited it with parentheses and a time stamp (to show it was in response to what you post) to elaborate.  Though writing this, I'll go back and change it more to avoid someone stumbling upon such and instantly assuming.  I don't write much on this site since I don't PvP and don't want to talk about something that I essentially "gripe out on" and run away if I see anyone while harvesting.

The tedium could be a problem, yes.  Though such is also a gate for the highest level items and having more control versus a system deciding something.  I don't mind someone auto-crafting things, either.  Though a hands on approach is a jewel for me.  But I guess I just like really in-depth features and doing things others don't want to do -- it gives a feeling of importance to a job.  As for stats?  I mentioned before, in another thread months ago, that I don't really pay attention to them at the moment as they are not finalized.  So I'll admit any failure where I speak of such directly in this thread.

Edited by Sindothyx

Dare to dream.  Never be satisfied with what is.  We're restricted by time and money.  But if we do not dare to dream, we will never improve efficiently when opportunity strikes.

Each feature has its own meta; it's own audience.  Who prefers simplicity versus intricate complexity?  Who does not?  When does it provide meaningful depth to a specific structure or economy?  Is there a way to implement both?  How many characters will they control?  And their options?

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29 minutes ago, Wayoun said:

Would it be very difficult to create a program to "hack" any interactive portions of crafting?

Bots are incredibly sophisticated nowadays.  But it will be more difficult to make in that any old average joe won't be able to make such.

Especially when you run into situations where you know something screwed up with an ability and you absolutely need to use a specific ability that has a specific purpose.  There is a problem with "optimal rotations" spitting out things if you have good enough gear and skill, but the expensive materials will always want to be handled manually due to anything happening at any time.  From a "good" or "excellent" or "bad" boost that you randomly get that could give you more durability or quality than normal, or needing to use your best "finish it now" skill since something happened or you figured out you don't have enough points to do it otherwise and would otherwise fail.  But without boosts, that in itself only has a 50% chance of success.   Or a skill that recovers most materials if you know you screwed up.  Still percentages and chances, but you have outs and decisions at the costs of other things.  Though what I am talking about is pretty simplistic as well.  There are a lot of nuances.

Such as "bad boost", you may want to hold off on trying to improve quality as your mindset is distracted.  Maybe just use that turn to buff yourself with a buffing ability as trying to increase quality will be 1/5 normal effectiveness at the same if not higher price.  Easy to spot, but a macro or bot may power through it.  Just random events and some other things beyond the increased interaction.

Edited by Sindothyx

Dare to dream.  Never be satisfied with what is.  We're restricted by time and money.  But if we do not dare to dream, we will never improve efficiently when opportunity strikes.

Each feature has its own meta; it's own audience.  Who prefers simplicity versus intricate complexity?  Who does not?  When does it provide meaningful depth to a specific structure or economy?  Is there a way to implement both?  How many characters will they control?  And their options?

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