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Hungercast Episode 3 Question


Keaggan
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Hungercast Community Question 3

We had lots of great posts and discussions from our last community question on loot boxes & micro transactions, Todd himself even jumped in to give us Ace's stance on it. Each week we invite everyone to give us their thoughts and opinions and a specific topic we will feature during the next Hungercast. This show isn't just about just about what we think but we want to know what the community thinks too. We'll highlight some of the best posts here on Saturday Dec 2nd  @ 2pm CST / 8pm GMT.

 

Community Question: 

Many of us have played a large number of MMO games. Some of us have played only a select few. From your experiences, what guild systems did you like most? Which MMO do you feel nailed it? What do you think Crowfall would need in their guild systems in order for it to be an enjoyable and efficient experience?

 

What are you thoughts?

Edited by Keaggan
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Who is the guest this week?

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Why not tie this topic into the last with the following (based on some unclear related comments from last QA from Gordon)

 

Does ACE define creating even a 'basic' guild as a 'service' (paid via the store)?

If so how will that effect game perception, campaign world competition and how guilds might migrate - if at all - from other games.

How much would you pay to make a guild?

If guild management only takes place outside of the game itself on crowfall.com - does that detract away from immersion etc?

How much information do you want on your guild to be public via the official or third party websites... e.g. @Scree planning some integration etc

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I reached out via twitter to both @Tyrant and @jtoddcoleman for clarity but heard nothing back

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Also related - we don't even know how guilds will function generally (e.g. 'guild banks'), fine details on EKs, and even how 'factions' will work in The Dregs (e.g. 5 man group immunity only? Or is your guild a 'faction' for immunity purposes etc - as it sounded like they were going to merge 'The Shadow' with 'The dregs' world band wise

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p.s. and i'd heavily recommend taking a read of Camelot unchained's beta one document on their plans for 'social systems and guilds'

[that section as reddit comments]

[interview]

Edited by Tinnis
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@Tinnis Admire the tenacity on your questions. And I do believe they could be answered, but not so much by the backers. Let's keep this focused on the community. Our intentions are to get opinions from backers on guild systems and past experiences. Not to put ACE under a microscope over something that's still not even available to test yet. ;)

 

That said you do offer a few additional questions that are targeting the community. Such as: 

38 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

How much would you pay to make a guild?

If guild management only takes place outside of the game itself on crowfall.com - does that detract away from immersion etc?

How much information do you want on your guild to be public via the official or third party websites... e.g. @Scree planning some integration etc

But before there becomes way too many questions. Let's give it some time for folks to respond to the OP. In which I invite you to do as well Tinnis. 

 

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There's a lot of factors we have to take into account as far Guilds are concerned. Similar as always to EVE, Crowfall deals with the concept of a 'guild' (corporation, in EVE's case) eventually becoming larger than just a ragtag group of players or mercenaries/crafters as we traditionally think of guilds in the MMORPG. A guild in, say, WoW or Guild Wars never progresses to the point where it feels like anything larger than a guild, whereas in EVE and indeed Crowfall a guild is an entity that will eventually hold sovereignty over an area at which point it wouldn't make much sense for it to be considered a guild, rather a kingdom or eventually an empire. In EVE, corporations would canonically be called Empires, typically referencing Alliances that hold major Sovereignty, but the main issue I found is a Corporation within an alliance still didn't feel like much more than a guild.

What we need to recognize is that Guilds, Kingdoms and Empires needs to all be separate entities. My Asura avatar will probably give away my Guild Wars 2 biases but what I would like to see is a system not dissimilar to Guild Wars 2's, that is to say, the ability to be in multiple 'Guilds' at one time. 

Let me give a hypothetical to demonstrate why I think that way; Here I am, living in this city owned by Caldera. Caldera owns a large amount of land on this world and since I'm not powerful enough to survive on my own, I hang around Caldera's territory peacefully going about my business. In this case I would classify Caldera as a Kingdom, in that respect I'm a citizen of Caldera's kingdom but I'm not a participant in their military, government or their primary means of crafting. Me and my merry band are just simple shop keepers crafting shoes within the city (except at night when we get into violent inner city territory disputes with rival guilds, but that's beside the point)

I do like the proposed idea of "sub-guilds", but it sounds like it might cause headaches for the bottom line, plus the issue of subtlety comes up. I think what would be cool is make it so you can, say, be a citizen of a Kingdom (maybe dual citizenship too), if you're a citizen of a Kingdom within an Empire you're a citizen of the Empire/Alliance, and from there you can be in say, 2-3 guilds that do not own significant land. This way you can still have you crafting cliques and shop owners feel a sense of uniqueness in a larger body, while also allowing skull duggery and underground rebellions to flourish and prepare in secret. 

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My biggest concern with guilds is something that specifically plauged Shadowbane.  I worry about 2 or 3 man guilds owning trees and closing the map then complaining when they can't compete.  IMO guilds that are so small as to not even be able to complete in the smallest of skirmishes have no right to a tree/poi/fort/stronghold.  

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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First off, good topic.

I do somewhat agree with Tinnis that getting answers to important Qs generated via the Shoutcast could be answered by ACE.  Maybe an ACE CM could shepherd the Qs to the appropriate ACE person and then provide the Shoutcast with feedback.  Maybe they participate in the Shoutcast only to provide answers the following Episode.  Don't want it to turn into a Q&A as ACE already does that regularly.

59 minutes ago, Nitris said:

What we need to recognize is that Guilds, Kingdoms and Empires needs to all be separate entities. My Asura avatar will probably give away my Guild Wars 2 biases but what I would like to see is a system not dissimilar to Guild Wars 2's, that is to say, the ability to be in multiple 'Guilds' at one time. 

2

When I first read this and saw multiple 'guilds' suggested I was SMH.  After reading Nitris' explanation, however, I do like the idea of having more than one citizenship.  Multiple guilds, though, really dilutes the importance of guilds in general.  In ESO it was like belonging to a number of chat groups and there was no sense of guild membership.

And for my thoughts on guilds in Crowfall:

  1. Succession: Guilds should exist after a leader falls/moves on.  Some sort of succession capability should exist so the guild doesn't need to reform following the loss of a GL.
  2. Guild Asset Management: Any guild assets e.g. banks, vaults, chests, etc should be tied into a decently robust accounting system so guild leaders can monitor the additions and removal of their assets, especially with crafting.  As a guild leader I should be able to learn what the guild gain/loss is at any time by guild member. e.g. Did Akede turn around his losses from last week and is he still in the red or did he dig out and is now in the black?
  3. Same as #2 but for guild infrastructure expenses for structures, their walls, keep towers, etc. This should apply to construction as well as siege repair.
  4. Guild Ranking/Access System: Allow guilds to build their own access model.  Don't constrain them into a model of a fixed 2 or 3 levels.  If they want the granularity and PITA of having 20 access levels, g-d bless them.  I'm thinking of the Discord Roles model when I describe this.
  5. Guild size cap: I understand the need to place a limit on how large a guild can be in Crowfall.  Please consider the following:  BDO launched with a 100 member guild cap.  While 95% of the guilds could manage under that cap, some could not with several hundred members wanting to be in the in-game guild.  The level of administration needed for onboarding and membership management was too high for a guild fielding > 100 members.  People want to play the game, not spend their time updating spreadsheets. Things like waiting lists and transfers required out of game listings of information so membership teams could manage.  Perhaps there could be a way of linking these guilds purely for administrative management and providing no other benefits.  As a guild officer, in a guild with > 100 members, I should be able to determine the capacity of any of the in-game guilds associated with the same out-of-game guild.  This would include being able to move blocks of members across in-game guilds to facilitate transfers and keep friends playing together.  Searches for members should be able to span multiple in-game guilds "linked" by the same out-of-game guild.
Edited by Akede
errors and omissions
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Who?

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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