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DocHollidaze

No significant difference between most classes.

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There is no significant difference between most classes, most of them except a few well-designed classes all have CC, DPS abilities, mobility, or healing available to them. The end result is a lack of meaningful choices and thereby you just select the combo which has the highest dps and mobility or lockdown. That is why Myrmidon was so frequently used months ago, then it was nerfed, and then confessor was everywhere then it was nerfed, and now wood elf ranger is the current flavor.

  • Myrmidom did great damage and had high survivability.
  • Confessor did great damage and had high mobility and CC.
  • Wood Elf Ranger does great damage, has high mobility and escape from root, has melee capability with lifesteal and invuln, baby-stealth, ranged root, cheap and easy damage type swap, etc.

* * *

This phenomenon will continue until ACE takes a hard look at how they design classes/races and what disciplines they have available to them.

The Duelist is a great example of a well-designed class that has a clear purpose and can do it well in the right circumstances, and yet is still not considered OP and played by everyone all the time.

Some examples of how to change things would be to take away all CC and self-heals from DPS-centric classes and allow them to add back those capabilities with disciplines. Make it a meaningful choice. Give up something to gain something else - rather than just getting to be able to do literally everything.

The Destroyer and Runecarved Gladiator disciplines for Champion are good implementations of options for speccing out your Champion character. I often am forced to choose between the two because I want to have Juggernaut as well. Meaningful choice, I love it.

And also take away the melee tray from Ranger by default and allow them to add it back with a weapon or major discipline - similar to how Druid and Duelist work. Want to have melee on a ranged DPS class? Give up some ranged DPS in return.

* * *

  • Damage Dealing
  • Crowd Control
  • Damage Mitigation
  • Mobility
  • Healing
  • Stealth

Ideally, the more options of the above list you add on to your character, the less impactful each of those should be. Pick 3 out of 6.

Edited by DocHollidaze

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As we know, this started with the Champion nerf two years ago (some of which has been remedied over time, though not stone-form). Disciplines are the only thing holding differentiation together ATM. If they can layer the discipline choices with class and race choices, that'll be awesome.

I'll note the amount of chatter on Discord about the Wood-elf ranger right now, and I'd argue that instead of looking at rangers, Ace should look at all other classes.

My concern is that CF combat looks like CC and Flee.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I think the "roles" perspective is something they launched with; "Tank", "Ranged", "Melee", "Specialist" and "Support".  It's clear this distinction was narrowed to something more palatable and easier to recognize; Warrior, Mage, Thief. It's a pretty easy triangle of concepts to follow. The problem is the diversity of those parents immediately confuses players. For example; The Ranger would fall under the "Thief" tree but seems to be designed to counter Thieves. Huh? Mages typically don't cast heals in any game I've played, but Druids and Clerics fall under this parent.

In essence, this games role design seems to be floundering without clearly defined roles for each of the parents. I believe they went this route to sort of give the Shadowbane feel to the game, you start with a base class, and then work your way into something more complicated. As the OP pointed out, none of the classes really feel distinct at this point; just different food coloring additives tossed in. 

My biggest fear right now is that this game's interesting combat perspective rests solely on the backs of disciplines. This has sort of necessitated that Crowfall constantly design and introduce new Disciplines or else the entire pool will simply be boiled down by the theorycrafting types into a specific set of viable choices. I don't see any reason to experiment once they've been found. Making matters worse is the customization we were supposed to find in the skill trees is now entirely absent. We are left with a vanilla set of ability scores we can pick up, with almost zero impact on how we'd play our characters.

I was originally impressed and now have serious consternation over the number of choices that Crowfall has extended the player. It's highly daunting once a new player enters the game, and once I as a new player have mastered the various customization aspects, I'll become disappointed by how little they actually impact the way I intend to play the game. 

All of the choices we've been given aren't really choices at all. Most of the disciplines boil down to a handful of even remotely viable/useful choices for each class (and some disciplines are locked to a specific class which makes me wonder why they aren't part of the base kit in the first place). This isn't really a choice, and further complicating matters is that ultimately it won't even be a question of choice, but later a question of availability (can players even craft these in some campaign bands in the first place!?).

I've become very jaded and realistic as to what we are seeing these myriad choices turn into. The choices presented by the crafting system are even less interesting (do I want +10 atk power or +0.10% crit chance... /yawn). A more interesting system would be creating set bonuses that impact how we play our characters, not a rush to min-max the crap out of some statistic.

I haven't seen any steps to make this better, just more homogenization and vanilla-ing of every system I used to think was going to add breadth and depth to character creation. Now I'm just plain apathetic to everything they've done a "pass" over recently.

Edited by Scree

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28 minutes ago, dreaden said:

Really good points in this thread, I have to agree. The crossing over of powers between roles is making the classes feel too similar.

I agree. I hate the discipline system for that reason. I will be honest, I haven't put enough time into the game though, so that's really just a first impression.

With healing skills, defensive skills crossing over to all classes with DISC skills, I just find not only will it be a nightmare to balance, It takes away from a classes strengths and weakness. It's not really a good combo to me with the race/class split because there are so many variables to account for it becomes a bit of a mess. 

BUT

I need to put more time into the game. I've been gone for a while and the time I was here my PC performance was dropping me to 10-15 FPS if I was lucky in fights - so i really wasn't too invested.

 

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There is some validity to this but do you think after a year of training it would be wise or beneficial to use a healing disc on a ranger who has no spirit, int, or support power benefits from skills.   In the same light would a cleric make anywhere near the dps of a ranger that has all the dex and crit skills.   The fact that you CAN use discs to make a class feel like another class doesn't make it practical to do so, it still isn't effective or efficient to use these odd builds.   That is if stats ever do count for anything which they also currently don't.

In Shadowbane you could make a whole lot of builds but most of them didn't work out well enough...lets get all the discs and classes in before judging if this is true.   Can fix in balance passes and change disc prereqs at that time.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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just picture the first fights in a day 0 campaign:

- basic weapons only

- no discipline powers

- long base class cooldowns / auto attacks / resource issues

- imbalanced scaling between healing and damage progression over time etc
[healing and related support effects never meaningfully progress after basic weapons - versus hyper inflation of damage/mitigation from gear, discipline and skill training]

- everyone on same skill training tracks....just pick the easy mode class [cleric? mass stealth?]

;p

Edited by Tinnis

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3 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

just picture the first fights in a day 0 campaign:

- basic weapons only

- no discipline powers

- long base class cooldowns / auto attacks / resource issues

- imbalanced scaling between healing and damage progression over time etc

;p

 


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

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1 hour ago, Scree said:

A more interesting system would be creating set bonuses that impact how we play our characters, not a rush to min-max the crap out of some statistic.

Remember the Enchantment power modification system? :P

RIP


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Finally:

how much do we expect that Advantage and Disadvantages will bring?

(one of the last remaining customization options and the only one that is available both immediately, relatively easy to experiment with and is not locked by crafting etc)

as a comparison here are preliminary examples from Camelot Unchained's similar Banes and Boons system

https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Banes_and_Boons

 

Edited by Tinnis

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Besides performance, this is the most pressing issue for CF, IMO. Nobody will care that there is a 2-year passive training system if for the first year everyone is essentially the same. Disciplines have promise, but need to not be nerfed - instead buffed: 

The same exact premise was happening with classes (archetypes) and the choice was nerf. While acknowledging all the problems with tweaking things during a buggy time in the game, every race, class, and discipline needs a serious pass to make sure they are all given powerful, differentiated abilities. That's when you'll see meaningful choices.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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14 minutes ago, Destrin said:

 

 

 

At least in your example everyone has pool noodles (although one is obviously duel wielding). A month in, anyone new that tries will be up against better geared foes with their pool noodles. 

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Some valid points here, and I know you're all aware of this to some extent, but it bears saying again.

The Devs are still adding entire systems to the game, I don't think that class balance is their prioeity currently. I don't think you can take any really meaningful stuff away from a class balance discussion, currently.

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1 minute ago, xaine said:

The Devs are still adding entire systems to the game, I don't think that class balance is their prioeity currently. I don't think you can take any really meaningful stuff away from a class balance discussion, currently.

This is a valid response, but I think the counterpoint is that it's not as if Devs are not making class (and discipline) balance changes and decisions. In which case, it is an immensely relevant conversation, and should be actively pursued right now.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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2 minutes ago, McTan said:

This is a valid response, but I think the counterpoint is that it's not as if Devs are not making class (and discipline) balance changes and decisions. In which case, it is an immensely relevant conversation, and should be actively pursued right now.

Agreed, and it's worth talking about - but I don't think it's worth getting too excited (not that anyone is) over this stuff. With the amount of people playing, I'm not even sure there is enough information to really get a handle on this stuff.

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TL:DR - Give Classes Specific Specialties - Use Weapon Disc to Keep These Differences

 

I think it would be valuable to assign a primary and secondary role to each class. Each class would have either access to either two class specific disc or class specific and weapons. All of this through the weapon slot disc.  This is all a pipe dream considering would require messing with base kits and possibly adding new abilities. Additionally I honestly haven't played with or against enough some of these so bear with me.

Examples:

Spoiler

 

Knight:

  • Single Target Harrasser
  • Single Target Protector
  • Class Specific Disc: Enhances Single Target Protector
  • Access to Weapon Discs

 

Confessor

  • AoE CC
  • Single Target DPS
  • Class Specific Disc: Enhance AoE CC(Lowers CD?)
  • Class Specific Disc: Enhance DPS(Weapon Efficiency? Range? Single Target DPS ability?)

 

Druid

  • Single Target Heal
  • Single Target DPS

Honestly I like where Druid is at with weapon discs, but its basic abilities (BEAR) needs attention

 

Templar

  • Area Denial
  • ???? Templar Mains ????
  • Class Specific Disc: Enhance Area Denial
  • Access to Weapon Disc

 

Ranger

  • CC Traps
  • + Range
  • Class Specific Disc: Enhance Traps
  • Access to A. Archer / Dagger Disc
  •  

Cleric

  • AoE Heal
  • Group Buff
  • Class Specific Disc: Enhance Group Buff
  • Access to Shield Disc

 

 

Duelist

  • Single Target Burst (high cd, high damage)
  • ?????????
  • Class Specific Disc: Enhance Burst
  • ????????
  •  

Champion

  • Melee AoE CC
  • Self Survivability
  • Class Specific Disc: Enhance Survivability
  • Access to Weapon Discs

 

Myrmidon

  • ????? Myrmidon Mains ????
  • Class Specific Disc: ?????
  • Access to Weapon Disc

If you've gotten this far you're probably wondering what I mean when I say access to weapon disc.

Give each weapon type they're own specialty.

Examples:

  • Swords: Protection
  • Axe: Bleeds
  • Hammer: Stun
  • Shield: Enhance Built in Blocks (Would be great if did different enhancement depending on class, such as knight cleric etc)
  • Bow/Arcane Archer: Give Access to Bow,  Increase Range, Self Buff to change damage type to one of the elemental types.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ussiah

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11 minutes ago, xaine said:

Some valid points here, and I know you're all aware of this to some extent, but it bears saying again.

The Devs are still adding entire systems to the game, I don't think that class balance is their prioeity currently. I don't think you can take any really meaningful stuff away from a class balance discussion, currently.

It totally should be a priority right now, unless anyone actually believes that gutting entire character systems from classes that existed since alpha, after launch, would be a good idea.

For the same reason that it was a good idea to redo the combat system right away as soon as it became very clear there was a lot of negative perception of it, it makes a lot of sense to reevaluate the race/class/discipline designs as soon as possible if it becomes apparent that the way they play out in implementation is incredibly unbalanced.

The longer you wait to change core features or designs, the bigger the upset to everything and everyone they effect.

I'm not trying to be a chicken little here or anything, but I think the recurring cycle of a single class or race/class combo becoming incredibly powerful vis a vis to all the others points to a larger issue that if not dealt with adequately will potentially make all the investment in these massive game subsystems (race class split) essentially worthless and a waste of time.

Like, whats the point in having 10,000 avatar combinations when everyone picks the same race/class combo for DPS?

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also RIP promotions :P

basically on a class level - every one plays the same for that class (or race/class). and then the illusion of choice of discs for a class isn't as deep as it first appears either...

Edited by Tinnis

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I think me and McTan are saying the same thing.

Lack of identity with classes missing their own class specific powerful abilities.

Ranger is getting attention because it has high dps, high range, lots of CC thus crowding out any other class that could potentially be in any of these categories or the classes that have little identity/nothing powerful that is just theirs.

Edited by Ussiah

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