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DocHollidaze

No significant difference between most classes.

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Class identity kinda took a backseat once disciplines were introduced. I’m guessing the discipline system won’t be that open come release; right now everyone has access to everything.

My problem is the majority of combat and class design is extremely bland and boring. Not necessary terrible, but not remarkable either considering the competition. 

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It is valid to point out that when stats come online properly the problem of blurred roles might be solved. You know with classes sold as healers being actually better at healing than others and the same for DPSs, tanks (is tanking even a thing today?) and specialists doing well what they are supposed to do.

I am skeptic. But who knows. It should at least mitigate the problem...

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35 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

It is valid to point out that when stats come online properly the problem of blurred roles might be solved. You know with classes sold as healers being actually better at healing than others and the same for DPSs, tanks (is tanking even a thing today?) and specialists doing well what they are supposed to do.

I am skeptic. But who knows. It should at least mitigate the problem...

Tanks are definitely a thing, but that is the one thing where I think, they are doing something wrong, feels like they are making more PvE'ish tanks in a game all about PvP, a PvE tank is much different to a PvP tank.

PvE tanks having high survivability and high threat(but rather low dmg), but since threat is not something that is doable in PvP if you try that kind of tank in PvP you end up with something that gets ignored till everyone else is dead

PvP tanks can be done in a few ways, but generally they need to be annoying with a high amount of CC's (and sometimes they only ones with hard CC(Stuns, KD etc)) and debilitating debuffs, and just enough dmg to not be ignorable (but ofc not to the lvl of the DD). Personally I really enjoy the war the Warhammer Online tanks works. Is really a lot of ways to do them, and if done right can be amazing to play, but giving them almost purely survivability is about the only completely wrong way to do it.

 

Other than that I agree with you that the stats not having an effect probably skews our picture of it a lot more than most realize

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Just a quick tip, a lot of what they're going to be working on is in the Q&A with Gordon from November. Such as what milestone's are coming next, and what the plans are for the near future. Here's a youtube link to said Q&A: 

 

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Really think they need to push out the last classes and then start diving into how to differentiate them more. I don't think crutching on disciplines is a good idea. I think each class should have its own identity and strength/weakness and build upon that with disciplines. 

Then another combat pass, because as it stands now with hitbox issues and things its not going to end well for ArtCraft. I think shooting for a low skill ceiling is a horrible idea.  

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6 hours ago, vunak said:

Really think they need to push out the last classes and then start diving into how to differentiate them more. I don't think crutching on disciplines is a good idea. I think each class should have its own identity and strength/weakness and build upon that with disciplines. 

Then another combat pass, because as it stands now with hitbox issues and things its not going to end well for ArtCraft. I think shooting for a low skill ceiling is a horrible idea.  

Doesnt need t be a super high ceiling but with hit boxes atm all u have to do is aim in some general direction and you will hit thats little over kill :P


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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I would like them to follow a consistent design philosophy like Warhammer online did with their classes.

          Major Focus     Minor Focus     weakness

Tank:

           Mitigation        Damage             Mobility

           CC                    Healing              Stealth

           Support                                       Range

MDPS:

          Damage          CC                       Healing

          Mobility           Mitigation          Stealth

                                    Support                Range

 

MDPS Assassin:

         Damage           CC                      Healing

         Stealth              Mobility           Mitigation

                                                             Range

                                                              Support

RDPS:

         Damage          Mobility           Healing

         Range                                       Mitigation

                                                           CC

                                                           Stealth

                                                           Support

Healer

        Healing            CC                  Stealth

        Support           Mitigation     Damage

                                 Range            Mobility

Edited by caffynated

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5 hours ago, caffynated said:

I would like them to follow a consistent design philosophy like Warhammer online did with their classes.

Seconded, I think actually looking at the classes, what roles they are SUPPOSED to fit in and suggesting how they could be changed to better fit that role is far better than just saying classes are too similar. (Though it is fairly true)

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When ACE decided to go with passive training, they narrowed the ability to have distinct classes.  Having more "vanilla" style classes helps players not have to "retrain" or "respec" or wait for different passive training to be finished.  Shadowbane in contrast had very unique classes and skills, but you could also finish a character in less than a week.  I found the Shadowbane model way more enjoyable; and it allowed players to more quickly adapt to the current meta.

Because of passive training, it is a more slow approach to adapting for the meta, which is why disciplines will probably be more broad and not limited to only a few classes.  ACE has to adjust how we adapt using something that is not training related.

With the new passive training trees, ACE then put the "unique" flavors of classes behind a year long training wall, so no one could make a mistake and learn their character over time before committing to a specific race/class.  I would have preferred getting to my class selections first, and then over time fill it out with general skills.

There are a lot of thoughts in this thread that resonate with me, and I can't help but feel like we are losing out on distinct and fun class differences.


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One thing they could do is make Arcane Archer and Sharpshooter only usable by Rangers, and then make a new dumbed-down "Archery" discipline that other classes can use. Make the abilities and stats from the Archery discipline here much less compelling than the premier Ranger disciplines.

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

One thing they could do is make Arcane Archer and Sharpshooter only usable by Rangers, and then make a new dumbed-down "Archery" discipline that other classes can use. Make the abilities and stats from the Archery discipline here much less compelling than the premier Ranger disciplines.

I think a lot of what we see in the future will be redesigns of existing systems to be more class specific. Remember promotion classes? Neither does ArtCraft. In the future disciplines may likely fill that role because at the moment anything past 1 discipline is largely a waste. A players hotbar is already so crowded if you equip more than 1 discipline you are sacrificing class skills for maybe 1 skill out of 3 on a discipline that you find useful. 

 

What I'd like to see is a lot of redesigns of disciplines in the future to reduce clutter and encourage more Promotion class style disciplines, where they are direct upgrades to existing abilities some classes have. Either that or make it so that you can plug discipline abilities into certain class skill chains. Which would be an amazing if difficult to design and balance option. 

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

One thing they could do is make Arcane Archer and Sharpshooter only usable by Rangers, and then make a new dumbed-down "Archery" discipline that other classes can use. Make the abilities and stats from the Archery discipline here much less compelling than the premier Ranger disciplines.

All the Archery disciplines are rather disappointing IMO. They add barely any new abilities making any non-Ranger who slots them having some empty slots or a ranged bar with mostly buffs and utility skills. The charged LMB are still where the majority of the damage comes from for all of these and this makes Archery VERY bland I think.

 

IMO change the Charge LMB. Allow Rangers and Sharpshooter access to it, making it a skill, with little to no CD still and make LMB 'plinks.' They would still be holdable to line up shots but no charge bar building for big damage per hit. 

 

Healers can and do Heal more HP per cast than non Healers but with little training and SP it seems low.

Tanks could have more group damage buffs or mitigation buffs to try and ensure they are a target of value instead of 'try to ignore until everyone else is dead' That is almost the opposite of what a Tank wants to be heh.

 

I also have issue with Disciplines being very limited to certain classes or practically useless compared to other ones.

Edited by Scorn

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5 hours ago, Scorn said:

All the Archery disciplines are rather disappointing IMO.

Healers can and do Heal more HP per cast than non Healers but with little training and SP it seems low.

Tanks could have more group damage buffs or mitigation buffs to try and ensure they are a target of value instead of 'try to ignore until everyone else is dead' That is almost the opposite of what a Tank wants to be heh.

I also have issue with Disciplines being very limited to certain classes or practically useless compared to other ones.

The same is true of the ranger's bow powers too though ;p

Debated at length the heal/support scaling and 'gear choice' issues (would be nice if templar was a '3rd support' too - but not currently based on trees/automatic free +SP)

Would love buffs and debuffs on  the tanks e.g. group barrier generation, enemy debuffs along the lines of weapon break (they do less damage) or suppress like 'disarm' effects etc

Templar especially suffers with 'unequal disciplines' due to how resources work across discs and classes e.g. 5 pips to make a healing fountain that heals for 50 a tick or 3 pips for a buff or movement power? broken...

Edited by Tinnis

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I haven't been here since the beginning, but I feel like this started early on and progressively got worse. I had complained a while ago that giving every class this ultimate ability with iframe immunity + some sort of dash move was dumb. These are core features to every character that have way too much overlap. We now have 3 -5 version of dash/roll/dodge (can't remember what its called)?

Then things got progressively worse with the split of race and class. This increased individual players options, while creating crossover in abilities between different classes due to racial skills.

Then we have a disciplines system which again allows almost all classes to have the same abilities. I like the idea of a disciplines system, but pulling one off that creates unique different classes is hard to do.

I think there was too much focus on quantity over quality due to the disciplines system. For the system to be enticing there had to be a large quantity of skills to choose from. The result is many disciplines are just recycled skills that another class already had access to.

I hope this additional funding and development time allows Crowfall to spend more time revisiting classes and making them more unique. Can we remove every discipline that is just a skill from another class or race?

Edited by ClockworkOrange

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1 hour ago, ClockworkOrange said:

...Can we remove every discipline that is just a skill from another class or race?

Or at least make Disc skills that mimic class skills strictly worse than the original class skill.  If anyone can use a given Disc, it’s benefits should be weaker than what the class equivalent would be; if a Disc gives healing and anyone can take it, it should be worse than what clerics have baseline.  If it’s better than cleric base, the it should be cleric limited.

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9 hours ago, shamelessPuck said:

Or at least make Disc skills that mimic class skills strictly worse than the original class skill.  If anyone can use a given Disc, it’s benefits should be weaker than what the class equivalent would be; if a Disc gives healing and anyone can take it, it should be worse than what clerics have baseline.  If it’s better than cleric base, the it should be cleric limited.

well healing will be weaker if taken on a non-suppport class by the nature that they wont have any base-line power, maybe if the cleric have no support power gear at all, and the non-healer have all support power gear, and some from training as well they might be about equal, but well then they did invest a lot into upping support power. and quite unlikely a cleric would not take some of that support power as well. So I really don't think the problem is on the healing front, there could be in other cases, where its skills that dont get effected much by stats

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1 hour ago, Gummiel said:

well healing will be weaker if taken on a non-suppport class by the nature that they wont have any base-line power, maybe if the cleric have no support power gear at all, and the non-healer have all support power gear, and some from training as well they might be about equal, but well then they did invest a lot into upping support power. and quite unlikely a cleric would not take some of that support power as well. So I really don't think the problem is on the healing front, there could be in other cases, where its skills that dont get effected much by stats

Sure.  I used healing as an easily understandable hypothetical example, though there are probably more accurate examples that still illustrate this issue.

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2 hours ago, Gummiel said:

well healing will be weaker if taken on a non-suppport class by the nature that they wont have any base-line power, maybe if the cleric have no support power gear at all, and the non-healer have all support power gear, and some from training as well they might be about equal, but well then they did invest a lot into upping support power. and quite unlikely a cleric would not take some of that support power as well. So I really don't think the problem is on the healing front, there could be in other cases, where its skills that dont get effected much by stats

I dont think it is about the values it is about giving unrelated classes acess to powers that are better than what a class that was designed for that sole purpose has.

For example i cant accept how Field Surgeon is unlocked to everyone. How can it be okay to let everyone have acess to such good powers? Even someone with zero SP can now use a group cleanse and give a 10 secs immortallity. That is crazy! Why should a knight have acess to this? A minotaur berserk?

That is the cause of the indentity problems we have. Everyone has acess to powers outside their intended role and these powers are too good!

Would we have problems if instead of Field Surgeon everyone had acess to a first-Aid Discipline? A discipline that is good enough to non-healers to consider getting it but that healers classes would scorn at? No one would care. People would know that if you want proper healing you should get yourself a real healer.

This example is about healing but where is the tanking classes exclusives and class defining Powers/Discs? Where are the powers that make wannabe tankers from other classes salivate?

Remember that we used to have categories like this: (incomplete and maybe wrong)

Tanks: Knight, Myrmidon

DPS: Confessor,  Champion

Healer: Druid, Legionnaire (You dont know what a lego is? What do kids study these days? Go learn CF history!)

Specialist: Ranger, Duelist

Wow, let's put on hold whatever we have going here. I just checked the Classes page to refresh my memory and i didnt find any indication these categories ever existed. So, what does this means? Is this lack of roles supported by ACE? Aren't knights and Myrms the tanks of CF anymore? Are fessor and champions still the suposed-to-be DPS? Are class roles still a thing at all?

TLDR: Yeah, slight wall of text, sorry. Cant really resume so go read it...

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