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MonsterKoala

((OOC)) Question about vessels

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((OOC)) Hello everyone! 

Short introduction. I mostly like to write, and, given that everything I read is in some way related to what ever IP I am currently obsessed with, my writing is often in the same vein. I have RPed on MUDs in the past as well as MMO's, but neither really grabbed my attention. Crowfall may have the same effect.

BUT I'm also really intrigued by the idea of the vessel system. I've read previous threads about how the "crow" works and whether it keeps the memories of what happened while occupying vessels and whether or not that knowledge transfers to new vessels. I am still having trouble with it, however. I don't have a problem with the idea that the "crow" fully inhabits the new vessel, I just think that, for me anyway, it's a little too safe.

I think I'm going to go ahead and write an in-character introduction (I happened to buy the $70 pack without realizing that I won't get to experience a little guinea knight, so I may not play until 5.3 goes live) but I have an idea that I'm not sure is possible.

It doesn't seem to be a rule that the "crow" -has- to remember anything. What if the "crow" only remembers the events that took place while he occupied previous vessels when he is in the form of the crow? 

This brings up the question of the worlds that we are traveling (are we traveling?) to after the previous one is destroyed. It seems to me like the "crow" is only being introduced into the world in the last year of its life. Does that make the lives of the current inhabitants up to the point that the crows begin to occupy the vessels moot? Or, are these worlds being created year by year in order to stave off or feed the Hunger? If anything, we seem to be hopping from one reality to another, seeing as the Hunger was brought on by the death of Gaea (not to mention the giant sentient guinea pigs).

I think it would be very interesting to have the character of the "crow", a nameless figure that is invisible to the mortal eye, be a literal guardian who is sacrificing the vast majority of his individuality in order to fight this Hunger. He knows that when he chooses a new vessel, he will effectively cease to exist, but his experiences make each new vessel more capable than the last. Whether it began as a duty or reaction, his purpose is now to try and try again to deal with the Hunger. 

I think as a writer, you could still have the new vessel remember certain things from past lives, especially if they help him in his current one. Maybe it's my own human nature, but I want to care about the person (or guinea person) whose physical form I am using. 

If my guinea mother comes up to me in the street and I don't recognize her, she may die of a broken heart. I really don't want to hold her tiny little life in my ghostly talons. That is my main concern.

 

EDIT: Hopefully making a new topic for this isn't a big deal. If need be, I can post it in an existing thread instead.

Edited by MonsterKoala
Checking myself before I end up wrecking myself.

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16 minutes ago, MonsterKoala said:

BUT I'm also really intrigued by the idea of the vessel system. I've read previous threads about how the "crow" works and whether it keeps the memories of what happened while occupying vessels and whether or not that knowledge transfers to new vessels. I am still having trouble with it, however. I don't have a problem with the idea that the "crow" fully inhabits the new vessel, I just think that, for me anyway, it's a little too safe.

It doesn't seem to be a rule that the "crow" -has- to remember anything. What if the "crow" only remembers the events that took place while he occupied previous vessels when he is in the form of the crow?

Well here is the comic series introducing the crow and vessel system that ACE did

https://imgur.com/gallery/LILbC

Which suggests the crow has difficulty in retaining its own (original?) memories from life to life

16 minutes ago, MonsterKoala said:

This brings up the question of the worlds that we are traveling (are we traveling?) to after the previous one is destroyed. It seems to me like the "crow" is only being introduced into the world in the last year of its life. Does that make the lives of the current inhabitants up to the point that the crows begin to occupy the vessels moot? Or, are these worlds being created year by year in order to stave off or feed the Hunger? If anything, we seem to be hopping from one reality to another, seeing as the Hunger was brought on by the death of Gaea (not to mention the giant sentient guinea pigs).

Think of the hunger as either a 'black hole' that is drawing worlds towards it

Crowfall_UniverseMap.jpg

Or as an expanding corruption that spreads to swallow worlds

hqdefault.jpg

16 minutes ago, MonsterKoala said:

I think it would be very interesting to have the character of the "crow", a nameless figure that is invisible to the mortal eye, be a literal guardian who is sacrificing the vast majority of his individuality in order to fight this Hunger. He knows that when he chooses a new vessel, he will effectively cease to exist, but his experiences make each new vessel more capable than the last. Whether it began as a duty or reaction, his purpose is now to try and try again to deal with the Hunger. 

I think as a writer, you could still have the new vessel remember certain things from past lives, especially if they help him in his current one. Maybe it's my own human nature, but I want to care about the person (or guinea person) whose physical form I am using.

FAQ section on Crows and Vessels

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/gameplay-and-systems/crows-and-vessels/

Quote

Vessels are (basically) bodies – corporeal forms that players can inhabit. You possess the body of a fallen hero and use it for as long as you like.

You have an immortal form that looks like a ghostly crow in the 3D world. This represents your immortal, eternal spirit.

Spiritual Knowledge is comprised of the memories that you accumulate over the course of many lives – which means that they are stored on your crow. Think of this as the residual knowledge that you carry between avatars, such as how to craft a helmet, recite an incantation or wield a blade. The vessel that you choose to possess (your avatar) will determine how much of your residual knowledge you can use at any time.

 


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32 minutes ago, MonsterKoala said:

It doesn't seem to be a rule that the "crow" -has- to remember anything. What if the "crow" only remembers the events that took place while he occupied previous vessels when he is in the form of the crow? 

 

Welcome to the forum.
 
The "rumor" of crows not remembering what happened in "their last life" is based on the lore of Hero, a human who fought as Valkyns standard-bearer in the dragon wars and was punished with immortality later, never remembering what happened before his last death.
 
Beside that, it has never been mentioned that crows would not remember their last life (of course living some thousands lives may cause some memory issues). But when Hero's story was published, it was not clear to us crows, that he would be a god - it sounded like he was just a simple crow. So that's that.
 
But of course you are completely free to tell your story as you wish. Based on the lore, the crow itself is the soul of an extraordinary person, sent to the dying worlds to fight in their behalf.
 
Did the gods speak to you to recruit you while you did the last breath of your first life? Or did you just wake up somewhere? Do you remember who you were before? Are you conscious about being a soul that travels through the universe to inhabit bodies and fight with them? Do you possses those bodies completely? Or is their original mind still in their? If so, are you dominating it or is it dominating you? Are they aware of each other or not?
 
Those questions are not strictly defined by the lore. So you are completely free in your decision regarding this topic. There is no wrong or write and different crows can experience completely different circumstances. Why? That only the gods can tell ... or you. ;)
Edited by Kraahk

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Thank you so much for directing me to this very helpful information Tinnis.

And thank you Kraahk. 

I really like to try to push boundaries a little bit while still keeping in line with established lore, so the questions may continue to flow.

It still seems like my concept would work, but only if the crow was ancient. Do we even close to know how many vessels our crow has occupied? What about when Gaea died and the Hunger was born (grew in power? started to spread?)? Do we know at all how long ago that happened? Were the crows created in response to the imminent danger of the Hunger, or have they been a thing since Hero? It seems like his was more of a sentencing of constant strife rather than immortality.

And it would be safe to assume that each of these worlds have an established population before dead people begin to rise from their graves? Meaning that my guinea mother's weak heart might still give out at seeing her once dead son walking around? I mean, it seems as if we're rebuilding from scratch, but if that's the case all over each of these planets, are we just trying to save remnants so that the gods might be able to start over at some point? 

I'm glad that I have all those questions to consider when fleshing out my crow (pun?). It helps to know that what is going on in the mind of the crow is more of a mystery than anything.

Thank you guys again!

 

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8 minutes ago, MonsterKoala said:

It still seems like my concept would work, but only if the crow was ancient. Do we even close to know how many vessels our crow has occupied? What about when Gaea died and the Hunger was born (grew in power? started to spread?)? Do we know at all how long ago that happened? Were the crows created in response to the imminent danger of the Hunger, or have they been a thing since Hero? It seems like his was more of a sentencing of constant strife rather than immortality.

And it would be safe to assume that each of these worlds have an established population before dead people begin to rise from their graves? Meaning that my guinea mother's weak heart might still give out at seeing her once dead son walking around? I mean, it seems as if we're rebuilding from scratch, but if that's the case all over each of these planets, are we just trying to save remnants so that the gods might be able to start over at some point? 

I'm glad that I have all those questions to consider when fleshing out my crow (pun?). It helps to know that what is going on in the mind of the crow is more of a mystery than anything.

Thank you guys again!

 

The first Crow was presented as 'Hero'

https://crowfall.com/en/pantheon/hero/

Quote

THE FIRST CROW

Little is known of the immortal the bards call Hero. By most accounts, he was a mortal soldier. It is said that he fought with distinction in the War of the Dragons, that he carried the All-Father’s banner in the campaign to tame Yaermir and Lyessa.

Did Hero return to find his wife and children slain, innocent victims of a savage time? Did he slay them to prove his devotion? Kill them in nightmarish fit of rage?

Perhaps none of these stories are true. Perhaps all of them are. Who can say, when a man who has lived a thousand lives?

We know only that Hero angered the gods. As punishment, they shackled him with immortality.

Only fools dream of eternal life. Denied the chance for peace in the afterlife, Hero became an undying soldier—cursed to fight and die in every war, across every world, in every age. He wakes on the eve of each battle with no memory of his past lives. He remembers only his sense of duty and how to carry a sword.

Each life ends the same. As his heart falters, the memories come flooding back: his wife, his children, the love and the longing, and the anguish and the pain. He remembers every life he has lived and the pain of every death.

With his final breath, he curses the gods… then wakes to fight again.

There aren't really any strict time lines about events given - e.g. death of gaea, spread of hunger, disappearance of the all-father, forming of the chaos, order and balance god factions etc - i imagine the gods can still recruit new fallen spirits from the 'new' worlds if they wanted to

Generally the worlds are filled with 'Thrall' spirits

https://crowfall.com/en/faq/gameplay-and-systems/thralls/

Quote

Thralls are the souls of fallen warriors and craftsmen, the spirits who remain on the Dying Worlds after the living have fled before the Hunger. They are ghosts and spirits, haunting these Worlds in the final hours…

The challenge for these ghosts is: they cannot pass into the afterlife, for they have unfinished matters which keep them from moving on. They cannot flee the World, however, for they are bound there. Thus, they are trapped on – and soon to be devoured with – a World that is already infected by the Hunger.

Thralls aren’t slaves. You are acting as a “grim reaper” of sorts -- one of the duties asked of the Crows is to track these errant spirits and offer them salvation on behalf of the Gods.

The deal is simple: to avoid being devoured by the Hunger, Thralls are given a chance at redemption. They enter the service of the Gods, serving as craftsman and spectral guardians for a set period of time, after which their soul is released and they can rest for eternity.

Ok, yeah. It’s grim. But remember, you’re the good guy, here. Without you, they would be consumed by the Hunger.

 

Edited by Tinnis

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I think your implementation is in accordance with the Lore we know. There is actually a lot of aspects where the Lore is kinda vague and that leaves room for individual interpretation.

24 minutes ago, MonsterKoala said:

And it would be safe to assume that each of these worlds have an established population before dead people begin to rise from their graves? Meaning that my guinea mother's weak heart might still give out at seeing her once dead son walking around? I mean, it seems as if we're rebuilding from scratch, but if that's the case all over each of these planets, are we just trying to save remnants so that the gods might be able to start over at some point? 

Safe. These worlds are like earth, imagine someday scientists discover this weird cloud-like thing travelling to earth and boom! next thing you know these people (and monsters) with weird powers start to appear and scavenge earth before hunger arrives and devour the whole thing.

It is possible to meet people you know technically but that would require you to be a newly created crow. And that would also mean your home planet is doomed and all the people you love will die in front of you while you cant help them. So i would prefer to never come across that situation.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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Woooooah hold on here, BarriaKarl. Now I'm confused.

If what Tinnis says about Thralls is true (supported by the FAQ), these worlds are already on their last leg, right? If my guinea mother were to exist at all, she's a ghost that I could recruit to make me pies for the next year?

Also, I'm not terribly concerned about the original life of my crow. If I can get away with it, he pretty much won't remember which one is which. What I'm wondering about is the life of the vessel. Or new vessel. It seems impossible that I would know anyone I come across as the crow (unless I somehow meet another crow who was on a previous planet with me and we figure that out) but, if there are still mortals on the new (to us) planet, it seems possible that someone might recognize the vessel I am controlling, right?

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23 minutes ago, MonsterKoala said:

It still seems like my concept would work, but only if the crow was ancient. 

 
Your concept can also work if it is a new crow, don't worry. Like i said, it is not clearly defined, so you are free.
 
23 minutes ago, MonsterKoala said:

And it would be safe to assume that each of these worlds have an established population before dead people begin to rise from their graves? 

They do. A long time ago the devs mentioned the history module. It will simulate the history of each world, which cultures lived their and what conflicts they had and how they ended ... resulting in a specific and individual number of ruins, strongholds and other points of interest at the point of time when the crows arrive to scavenge the remains.

As far as we know up to now, those cultures will already have dissappeared, when we enter the already dying worlds. There will only be those whos bodies will rise from their graves and the bodiless souls that are still trapped on this world (the aforementioned thralls).

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6 minutes ago, MonsterKoala said:

Woooooah hold on here, BarriaKarl. Now I'm confused.

If what Tinnis says about Thralls is true (supported by the FAQ), these worlds are already on their last leg, right? If my guinea mother were to exist at all, she's a ghost that I could recruit to make me pies for the next year?

Also, I'm not terribly concerned about the original life of my crow. If I can get away with it, he pretty much won't remember which one is which. What I'm wondering about is the life of the vessel. Or new vessel. It seems impossible that I would know anyone I come across as the crow (unless I somehow meet another crow who was on a previous planet with me and we figure that out) but, if there are still mortals on the new (to us) planet, it seems possible that someone might recognize the vessel I am controlling, right?

Don't forget, your guinea mother could become a crow, too. It's also not precluded that both of you don't recognize that you are crows and this is your first life as a crow. Or that one of you don't recognize. Or that another crow inhabited her body.

Since the account name is the displayed ingame name, no matter which vessel you use, it could be assumed that crows have a certain way to identify other souls/crows. You can of course choose that this is just a technical game thing and that it won't exist in your story, though.


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Fantastic, Kraahk. Thanks a ton. I'll have to revise some of the more interesting ways my previous vessels may have died after possession, as a mother poisoning her family to save them from the Hunger doesn't fit anymore. That's an easy one I liked, lol.

I think my biggest issue is going to be relating to my crow, unfortunately. And character motivations, if my crow effectively ceases to exist, at least in any mental capacity. This is going to be a tough one.

I also don't just want to meet my guinea mother if she's been inhabited by another crow. In that case, and if my vessel is pretty much the same guy he was in life, he'd be the one trying and failing to have a heart attack while the other crow stands there all-knowing and baffled at my reaction.

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1 hour ago, MonsterKoala said:

Woooooah hold on here, BarriaKarl. Now I'm confused.

If what Tinnis says about Thralls is true (supported by the FAQ), these worlds are already on their last leg, right? If my guinea mother were to exist at all, she's a ghost that I could recruit to make me pies for the next year?

On their last lag? yeah, but that doesnt mean without survivors. I personally think that based on the lore the worlds arent supposed to in such a dire situation as we will get in game.

When we arrive the only effects of the hunger is making the wildlife more savage (and creating zombies too AFAIK) so the local people has no reason to be extinct. It is only in winter that resources become scarcer and the wildlife becomes deadly enough for survival to be a serious issue. When we arrive things are just slightly wrong (zombies are nothing when dragons are a thing).

Those differences are to be expected though, we are making a PvP only game so we aint wasting time creating NPC villages and the likes (more so when they will all die before the end of the campaign). I believe most players wouldnt even interact with NPCs if they existed. That is why the DEVs use the "extinct civilization" card and skip the hassle.

It would be really cool to see the world slowly dying for real though. Shame it would waste our precious time and money.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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4 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

When we arrive the only effects of the hunger is making the wildlife more savage (and creating zombies too AFAIK) so the local people has no reason to be extinct. It is only in winter that resources become scarcer and the wildlife becomes deadly enough for survival to be a serious issue. When we arrive things are just slightly wrong (zombies are nothing when dragons are a thing).

Those differences are to be expected though, we are making a PvP only game so we aint wasting time creating NPC villages and the likes (more so when they will all die before the end of the campaign). I believe most players wouldnt even interact with NPCs if they existed. That is why the DEVs use the "extinct civilization" card and skip the hassle.

 

It would be realy cool to see the world slowly dying for real though. Shame it would waste our precious time and money.

I certainly agree. It would be very cool, and really open up some interesting options for story. But like I said, I like to play by the rules as much as I can, so I'll just go with the idea that the people on these planets are pretty much long gone. 

Thanks again! If I have any more questions, I'll post them in this thread.

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