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Battlewrath

Class Armor Tiers, yay or nay?

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1 hour ago, Frykka said:

So you guys don't want to pay a minor disc to change armor type from your class kit...  but harvesting players pretty much have to burn a minor slot to have good/better results (until far into high end training).   Sound to me like what isn't good for the goose is good for the gander.  I think the minor disc loss is an adequate trade off damage for mit just like we deal with...

The issue here is that plate can wear any for free and leather users pay two minor for the same result, make it 1minor to use the armor type you wish to use or don't allow that movement. 

Its like a leather worker having to use 2 minors to get to the same result as a blacksmith who gets it for free. 

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1 hour ago, Battlewrath said:

The issue here is that plate can wear any for free and leather users pay two minor for the same result, make it 1minor to use the armor type you wish to use or don't allow that movement. 

Its like a leather worker having to use 2 minors to get to the same result as a blacksmith who gets it for free. 

agree, out of kit in either direction should be a minor disc, you gain damage bonus.

don't agree...  no amount of minors should replace 6 months + of passive training

Edited by Frykka

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3 hours ago, Frykka said:

So you guys don't want to pay a minor disc to change armor type from your class kit...  but harvesting players pretty much have to burn a minor slot to have good/better results (until far into high end training).   Sound to me like what isn't good for the goose is good for the gander.  I think the minor disc loss is an adequate trade off damage for mit just like we deal with...

That is a pretty stupid argument. Since my mechanic suck lets make yours suck too. Way to go for a good game.

Dont take me wrong, i dont like the gatherer discs too (dislike it enough to consider just being a fighter) but that discussion belongs to another topic. Lets try to make things better overall.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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1 hour ago, Frykka said:

When the base kit is leather and you move to plate rather than just to mail (one step) you are gaining 2 jumps in mitigation, correct?

correct

1 hour ago, Frykka said:

To me that is asking to make choices not matter or having your cake and eating it too...

Losing the two steps of damage for 2 steps of mitigation seems the opposite of this, you are trading one stat for another. I'm not proposing that you get the bonus damage and mitigation for free.

1 hour ago, Frykka said:

 It has everything to do with this conversation because again it is about the combat power curve vs ALL other players and not just vs other combat focused players.

You're arguing apples vs oranges. Now if a  ranger could only use an axe for harvesting without taking a minor discipline to use other gathering tools then that would be an equivalent situation.

Edited by dreaden

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18 minutes ago, dreaden said:

correct

Losing the two steps of damage for 2 steps of mitigation seems the opposite of this, you are trading one stat for another. I'm not proposing that you get the bonus damage and mitigation for free.

You're arguing apples vs oranges. Now if a  ranger could only use an axe for harvesting without taking a minor discipline to use other gathering tools then that would be an equivalent situation.

If I want the mitigation from plate in my ranger gathering build...   that's still the same apple but I also lost a major (a lot more damage than you are talking about) to gain a single PH pip (and lose a minor or two? just like you to go off-armor)...   I often still have to fight in this build, it is not like gatherer builds are not required to fight, do dps, heal, cc etc as well...   all players are apples regardless of build, we have to take a hit to our combat power curve to make the build for our role...  if your role is to be tanky dps and not a glass cannon, you take a hit, sometimes it's a bigger hit because it is further from the base kit role.

Edited by Frykka

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5 minutes ago, Frykka said:

If I want the mitigation from plate in my ranger gathering build...   that's still the same apple but I also lost a major (a lot more damage than you are talking about) to gain a single PH pip (and lose a minor just like you to go off-armor)...   I often still have to fight in this build, it is not like gatherer builds are not required to fight, do dps, heal, cc etc as well...   all players are apples regardless of build, we have to take a hit to our combat power curve to make the build for our role...  if your role is to be tanky dps and not a glass cannon, you take a hit, sometimes it's a bigger hit because it is further from the base kit role.

That is your perspective now but with bigger worlds, organised work with a guild, or hired mercs your vessel can focus on being a crafter, power curve of a crafter in combat is out of the scope of this thread. 

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2 minutes ago, Battlewrath said:

That is your perspective now but with bigger worlds, organised work with a guild, or hired mercs your vessel can focus on being a crafter, power curve of a crafter in combat is out of the scope of this thread. 

Crafters are not out in the fray like a gather toon is...   THAT is apples and oranges.  I haven't seen many crafters out doing their thing at the mine but with the advanced benches going into forts they could be caught in a battle too...   Crafters do not generally have to spec for damage or mitigation or any combat, gatherers definitely do.

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42 minutes ago, Frykka said:

I also lost a major (a lot more damage than you are talking about) to gain a single PH pip (and lose a minor or two? just like you to go off-armor)

How is this different than taking a combat major disc on a pvp focused build? You choose to take it, it gives a significant bonus to amount of materials gathered but is not required to harvest. I choose to take banshee, it gives significant bonus to dmg but not required to deal damage. Apples.

Taking a minor disc to equip armor of choice(including inherent advances and disadvantages). Oranges.

 

 

Edited by dreaden

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Here's my question:

Why should it cost a discipline for a leather wearer to wear plate instead?

  • What are you trying to accomplish?
  • Why does it improve the game?

If feels as if you are adding complexity for its own sake.  (Yes, this could be a discipline, but why should it and why does this improve class balance)

FWIW, back in vanilla WoW there were times in which DPS warrior were running around in leather because the dex and the crit gains outweighed the loss of strength and con.  Who knows, we might see some weird DPS knight or DPS cahmpion builds that want to wear leather.

From my perspective, if you want to add this type of mechanic

  1. you need to balance out the various armor tiers so they all have advantages and disadvantages
  2. Classes should each have 1 "free" armor tier.  You can slot a discipline to add the ability to wear a given class

I personally would prefer a system in which different armor classes impact the mean and standard deviation of different types of attacks

Consider the difference between plate armor and no armor

  • If I am wearing full plate, I have really good protection, but I am not quite as nimble as I am running around in a tee shirt and sweats.  As such
    • I tend to get hit much more often then I do wear nothing
    • When I get hit, I take relatively small amounts of damage and the chance that I get crit is much much smaller
  • Conversely, if I am running around without any armor
    • Its relative difficult for folks to land a hit
    • If they do land a hit its going to hurt an awful lot

(You can actually couple this with different classes of weapons, some of which are optimized to smashing through plate while others are very light and fast)

Crowfall is using a system in which you have four different choices with respect to armor

  1. No armor
  2. Leather
  3. Scale / Mail
  4. Plate

And, we have three different types of damage (physical, elemental, organic)

So, we can arrange things as following

  1. Plate provides great defense against physical attacks and good protection against elemental / organic
  2. Leather provides great defense against organic attacks and decent protection against physical / elemental
  3. Mail provides great defense against elemental attacks and decent protection against physical / organic

If you wear ANY type of armor, your chance of getting hit increases

If you wear zero armor (or rely on rings, bracers, etc), your damage goes up (you're better at targeting and getting crits)

I'd probably have a secondary trade off in which the better overall defense that plate provides is balanced out by higher stamina / food consumption when running.

In this scheme, we'll probably see folks who want to go full glass cannon eschew armor altogether while tank hunker down in full plate.  The choice between leather and mail (probably) depend a lot on whether there is an elemental heavy meta underway or a physical heavy meta.

 

 

 

Edited by narsille

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6 minutes ago, narsille said:

From my perspective, if you want to add this type of mechanic

  1. you need to balance out the various armor tiers so they all have advantages and disadvantages
  2. Classes should each have 1 "free" armor tier.  You can slot a discipline to add the ability to wear a given class

I am not stating this should be added, the recent dev stream - https://crowfall.com/en/news/articles/pre-alpha-5-live-for-december/ - is where they said that the armor system will be progressive with Leather - Mail - Plate in that order, so if you can use plate, you can use all, if you can use mail you can use leather, and if you can use leather, you have to use a discipline slot (2 to use plate) or as a mail user (1 to use plate.).

My argument is to split the difference and just let people pick what armor type they wish to use and then spend a minor discipline on it - or don't complicate the system at all.

So far, the explained system makes it better to be a plate user than a leather user.

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9 hours ago, Battlewrath said:

I am not stating this should be added, the recent dev stream - https://crowfall.com/en/news/articles/pre-alpha-5-live-for-december/ - is where they said that the armor system will be progressive with Leather - Mail - Plate in that order, so if you can use plate, you can use all, if you can use mail you can use leather, and if you can use leather, you have to use a discipline slot (2 to use plate) or as a mail user (1 to use plate.).

My argument is to split the difference and just let people pick what armor type they wish to use and then spend a minor discipline on it - or don't complicate the system at all.

So far, the explained system makes it better to be a plate user than a leather user.

Yes, plate user will be benefitted from this more, then leather user. In my opinion the player should choose, what he wants to wear without spending a minor discipline for it.

Leather should give a good damage boost, no mobility restriction and just a common damage mitigation

Mail should give a no damage boost, a small mobility restriction and good damage mitigation

Plate should give a damage malus, a big mobility restriction and very good damage mitigation

 

I readed this somewhere, but dont know the % of each. With this only the player could choose what he wants to play B)

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I guess I see all points here. Personally I think taking different armor classes should definitely take up a minor slot as the system is set up now. 

However maybe they should just change armor types from disciplines to something you do at character creation with advantages/disadvantages. Get rid of discs all together for armor and still make it a interesting and meaningful choice as you'd lose other options in advantages/disadvantages

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8 hours ago, DeHei said:

Yes, plate user will be benefitted from this more, then leather user. In my opinion the player should choose, what he wants to wear without spending a minor discipline for it.

Leather should give a good damage boost, no mobility restriction and just a common damage mitigation

Mail should give a no damage boost, a small mobility restriction and good damage mitigation

Plate should give a damage malus, a big mobility restriction and very good damage mitigation

 

I readed this somewhere, but dont know the % of each. With this only the player could choose what he wants to play B)

We already tried the mobility restriction a year ago and it went over like a ton of bricks, I was the rare one wearing it and only on a druid with the dissipate to keep up...   then they tried a penalty to dodge pips on top too.   Doesn't work.

I would suggest that perhaps plate, mail, and even leather have a progressive penalty to Dexterity instead of movement speed...  if it is the case where plate mitigations are that much better for a build than leather damage bonus.  I do still hold out hope for cloth as an armor type with added bonus to dex and elemental damage.  Cloth stats also depend on the fibers used that are collected with the plant harvesting skills.  Dex affects stats that make sense for the weight of the armor without changing the movement speed meta.
 

Basic: 5% mitigations, 0 dex, 0 damage bonus

Cloth: 0 mitigations, +10 dex, +15% elemental/organic damage bonus

Leather: 10% mitigations, +3 dex, + 10% damage bonus

Mail: 15% mitigations, -3 dex, + 5% damage bonus

Plate: 20% mitigations, -10 dex, 0 damage bonus

something like this as a base before experimentation, layers, etc

we still need to see the actual stats in the planned changes...

The off-kit armors are all available initially only with a single minor disc and then each class has added nodes to the armor/health branch of the class tree that unlocks each kind of armor per node, a split after an AC boost node...  So you get that minor disc back after 3-4 months of training.




 

Edited by Frykka

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1 hour ago, Frykka said:

We already tried the mobility restriction a year ago and it went over like a ton of bricks, I was the rare one wearing it and only on a druid with the dissipate to keep up...   then they tried a penalty to dodge pips on top too.   Doesn't work.

I would suggest that perhaps plate, mail, and even leather have a progressive penalty to Dexterity instead of movement speed...  if it is the case where plate mitigations are that much better for a build than leather damage bonus.  I do still hold out hope for cloth as an armor type with added bonus to dex and elemental damage.  Cloth stats also depend on the fibers used that are collected with the plant harvesting skills.  Dex affects stats that make sense for the weight of the armor without changing the movement speed meta.
 

Basic: 5% mitigations, 0 dex, 0 damage bonus

Cloth: 0 mitigations, +10 dex, +15% elemental/organic damage bonus

Leather: 10% mitigations, +3 dex, + 10% damage bonus

Mail: 15% mitigations, -3 dex, + 5% damage bonus

Plate: 20% mitigations, -10 dex, 0 damage bonus

something like this as a base before experimentation, layers, etc

we still need to see the actual stats in the planned changes...

The off-kit armors are all available initially only with a single minor disc and then each class has added nodes to the armor/health branch of the class tree that unlocks each kind of armor per node, a split after an AC boost node...  So you get that minor disc back after 3-4 months of training.




 

In your list would leather be most efficient in comparison to the higher plate armors. I would say 20% mitigation for mail and 30% mitigation for plate would be more fair. If this is to high, the damagebuff could also turn to a malus.

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20 minutes ago, DeHei said:

In your list would leather be most efficient in comparison to the higher plate armors. I would say 20% mitigation for mail and 30% mitigation for plate would be more fair. If this is to high, the damagebuff could also turn to a malus.

Those are the just suggested base values less Blair math...   you get more mitigation with optional layers added (leather layers +1-3 mitigation (total all 3), mail layers +3-5, plate layers +5-10)   there is also the boost by quality and the experimentation successes.   I could imagine blue plate +30, purple plate with +35, gold plate +40.

Edited by Frykka

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On 12/15/2017 at 11:44 AM, dreaden said:

A confessor's role base roll is dps, taking plate is a deviation from that role. Taking one minor discipline to access plate removes access to two sources of dmg(one from leather, one from the disc) and that seems excessive to me.

1

It seems perfectly reasonable based on the idea that your deviating from your role and that matters just like it would in real life.

If your belief is you trade 20% damage for 20% tankiness then why have classes at all.

Just let people move sliders up and down. 

Classes reflect your profession when you deviate greatly from your profession you not only lose the time spent for example upgrading your current profession but because of your learning a totally new and unrelated skill set you also lose basically efficiency. Sword thrusts translate into spear thursts knowledge. reading does not translate into plate, in fact i'll need to go bulk up in the gym instead of reading spell books so I can wear plate. If I know how to cast a fireball, creating a rain of fireballs is made easier, if I am already muscular and strong, wearing plate is made easier. If i'm a book worm and I want to wear plate, life is going to suck and yes i'm going to have to try twice as hard and so yes not only am I going to lose out on getting that rain of fireballs because i'm in the gym, but i'm also going to miss out on learning how to use leather cause i'm wearing plate. 

A knight with a hook and rope, some soft shoes and a shuriken is NOT  a ninja. A Ninja with a plate mail set is not a knight and that's because of the same reason that a confessor in plate is a not one. 

 

You take double hits deviating from your class because of lost efficiency and because of that the trade should not be 20% damage lost for 20% hp but instead 40% damage for 20% because confessors who know fireball will quickly learn rain of fire and big strong knights will quickly be able to move in plate and confessors wearing plate will be exhausted in minutes, they can't just wear it all day to get used to it because they lack the strength to, so they have to get strong to get good. 

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If this were D&D that would be relevant, but we're talking about a world where a Hamster (who clearly wouldn't be as strong as say a Minotaur or Half Giant or Human or Elf or any of the other races for that matter) can wear plate. 

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30 minutes ago, Apok said:

If this were D&D that would be relevant, but we're talking about a world where a Hamster (who clearly wouldn't be as strong as say a Minotaur or Half Giant or Human or Elf or any of the other races for that matter) can wear plate. 

This isn't a very good argument. The size of the armor on a guinea will be a fraction of the weight of a minotaur or a half-giant. I really don't think it would be that difficult for them 

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As would say a fae's plate and we could go a step farther and break it down into mats used, many are not as heavy as the other but just as strong when crafted correctly so his argument is invalid because it would be completely possible to build a plate set out of a different material that weighs close to the same as a leather set.

I don't think any should be dependent on Disciplines, but if you're going to force it on Leather classes then it should be forced on the others to the same extent as well. 

Would a Knight not do more DPS wearing Leather or chain vs plate ? Wheres the trade off for that scenario ?

I don't imagine you're going to see a lot of Plate wearing casters to begin with or Leather wearing Heavies but if for whatever reason that's the route they choose to go they are already doing a trade off with offence/defense so adding a discipline to it I just can't agree with. I'm fine with making it a skill you need to learn or some other method so it's not just a freebie as long as it's not Disciplines.

Edited by Apok

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1 hour ago, Apok said:

 

Would a Knight not do more DPS wearing Leather or chain vs plate ? Wheres the trade off for that scenario ?

I don't imagine you're going to see a lot of Plate wearing casters to begin with or Leather wearing Heavies but if for whatever reason that's the route they choose to go they are already doing a trade off with offence/defense so adding a discipline to it I just can't agree with.

6

 

The trade off is more damage for less armor, a pretty clear trade off.

 

As to the difference between letting a knight switch armor without a penalty vs letting a caster wear plate. It's pretty clear, the class is why. It's essentially a class perk.

It's no different than letting a knight use a shield. 

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