Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
ACE_JackalBark

ACE Q&A for December - Official Discussion Thread

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Niennah said:

More practice can be good for you, isn't it?)

Yeah but if I can't hit it'll be frustrating and it will suck. As I will suck at it haha. But I think it can be made a little smaller. I tend to lean towards games that use tab targeting I excel a lot more on those. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Tark i would argue your templar lacks the dexerity required for both the dodging (eg more footwork etc) and greater freedom of arm motion leather provides as a damage bonus (as he is not used to that from his sluggish plate strength)

your move

:P

Edited by Tinnis

caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, yiannit said:

Yeah but if I can't hit it'll be frustrating and it will suck. As I will suck at it haha. But I think it can be made a little smaller. I tend to lean towards games that use tab targeting I excel a lot more on those. 

Yeah, a little smaller would be great, it's not overwatch, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Tark said:

Yes giving a Templar free reign is acceptable because they are a class that is designed around wearing plate armor. It makes sense you can move down but not up. My character is strength based and therefore strong and can wear heavier armor. Where as some of the other classes rely more on quickness and precision or intellect but lack physical strength. Wearing heavier armor on the weaker classes is more taxing and therefore more resources (in this case, minor disciplines) must be allocated to  make up for the deficiency. Also my Templar is actually stronger when wearing leather because I don’t have to bear the weight burden of wearing plate this is why I get a damage bonus. If I can wear plate then it’s no sweat that I can wear a lighter armor.

This logic is invalid.... This is a video game... with magic...  If this is your argument you should be saying that that armour type should be gated by a str and or dex threshold.  Currently for all classes STR is arguably the best DMG stat, that would make all classes strength based.

10 minutes ago, Tark said:

You might think  this is silly but game design has revolved around this type of design before video games were a thing. It’s not a question of fairness. The fairness comes into play with balancing the numbers. If you want to wear plate without having to give up disciplines then play a class that can do that. 

It's not about fairness, it's about options.  Which we all want.  I just don't see why some classes don't have any cost, other than HP, and can stack damage minors to get quite a good bonus to damage. While other classes have to sacrifce dmg from the gear and two minor slots as well so they won't get the same level of benefit cause they only have one minor they can slot as a defensive minor.  You restrict the options of how people can build their character if this happens.

 

 


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

@Tark i would argue your templar lacks the dexerity required for both the dodging (eg more footwork etc) and greater freedom of arm motion leather provides as a damage bonus (as he is not used to that from his sluggish plate strength)

your move

:P

I agree with you. Which is why I take more damage as a result. I may not have as much arm motion, but my attacks are more brute force  and the extra freedom allows my swing speed to be faster therefore striking the target harder. My templar doesn’t wear plate to bed and is quite use to the freedom that leather provides. My Templar might even say it feels just as natural as wearing plate. 

Seriously though, what you guys propose will water down the game and make armor feel like it does in WoW, where it doesn’t matter as much. If you guys think it’s better that everybody can wear anything then I agree, so the let’s agree plate should give you a speed decrease. You can’t say I’m biased since I’m asking to slow down my own main class as a consequence of wearing plate. 

My idea for my Templar under a weight system has been leather/mail for field battles where I need to be mobile, and plate for defending sieges as I’m holding a line and I don’t need to move around much. I don’t think there are really any flaws in either of the systems. It think this boils down to a me too mentality and I think in this instance the devs should tell the player no for their own good.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Destrin said:

This logic is invalid.... This is a video game... with magic...  If this is your argument you should be saying that that armour type should be gated by a str and or dex threshold.  Currently for all classes STR is arguably the best DMG stat, that would make all classes strength based.

It's not about fairness, it's about options.  Which we all want.  I just don't see why some classes don't have any cost, other than HP, and can stack damage minors to get quite a good bonus to damage. While other classes have to sacrifce dmg from the gear and two minor slots as well so they won't get the same level of benefit cause they only have one minor they can slot as a defensive minor.  You restrict the options of how people can build their character if this happens.

 

 

My logic is invalid? Would you explain to me what makes my logic invalid. Please be detailed focusing on only validity and leaving opinions out of it.

When designing characters, worlds, classes etc for video games they draw from reality. We already know from countless other games that the warrior melee classes use heavier armor. The classes the rely on spells, ranged, and subtley typically use the lighter armors. Considering the designers of this game have set it up the exact same way as I've describe I'd be inclined to say that you aren't correct. I think this really boils down to Destrin wants what Destrin wants but Destrin doesn't think that Destrin has to have a good reason because Destrin is biased for Destrin's own self interest. Which is fine if that is true, but that mentality makes for a crappy video game designer.

There has to be costs associated with the armor system if you are going to open it up to the types of characters that traditionally don't use that specific armor. Your classes that don't use those types of armor already have built in advantages over the big heavy armor melee types. These things would include mobility and ranged abilities that you take for granted and assume that should just come with your class without a cost. There is a reason this system has been passed down through the ages and used over and over again in everything from table games to video games. 

If you want to argue for 1 minor discipline or some other type of method I can respect that. But for you to sit here and say what I'm saying isn't valid from a design and balance standpoint just reeks of bias on your part. Nothing about your character is "free". The abilities it was given in a default state (no disciplines) all had costs associated with them from a design standpoint when that specific class only existed on a white board.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think both Tark and Destrin have valid arguments. 

Fantasy / MMORPG "lore" agrees with what Tark is saying. But Destrin is right that giving up a 10% damage bonus for 10% increased mitigation is a trade off in itself. 

I imagine ACE will look at the metrics and if nobody is willing to use 2 disc slots to move armor types they may change it to just 1 or maybe remove the restriction all together.

However, the overall direction of the armor system is MUCH better than what we have in 5.3. I much prefer plate being the highest mitigation across the board, followed by mail, followed by leather, while giving mail/leather damage bonuses (and hopefully healing too) to compensate. 


Blazzen <Lords of Death>

YouTube - Twitch - Website

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Tark said:

My logic is invalid? Would you explain to me what makes my logic invalid. Please be detailed focusing on only validity and leaving opinions out of it.

You are trying to explain restricting what types of armour people can wear using real world examples of why this makes sense, but gating the access behind magical stones I keep in my pocket? It's highly contradictory to say "this works cause it kind of works like this IRL, but you need magic to make it happen".

As Blazzen states above the cost is already in the armour itself. I am already giving up damage for the mitigation just by wearing it. Why does someone wearing leather as a base have to give up two minor slots sacrificing even more? Unless the mitigations on plate are more than say Sturdy and Overwhelming odds, no one is going to use plate if they wear leather as a base.  They will still get the damage bonus from leather, where if i was wearing plate i would not.

31 minutes ago, Tark said:

I think this really boils down to Destrin wants what Destrin wants but Destrin doesn't think that Destrin has to have a good reason because Destrin is biased for Destrin's own self interest.

What Destrin wants is more options on how to build any of the classes he plays, not restrictions.  I don't only play one class that has a base armour type of plate so he can wear w/e armour he wants and not have to sacrifice those precious magical stone slots.  I also play Templar, and having those options to go full DMG is awesome.  I also play Ranger, Confessor, Druid, a little Cleric, and most likely Assassin and Frostweaver as well when they are released.  I also want to play Champion, i just haven't gotten around to it yet.

I just don't see how it makes sense allowing two classes out of the eleven pick what ever they want without sacrificing minor slots while the other 9 are required to.  The other 9 classes are going to have to sacrifice more for wanting to equip something different, while two classes have free reign on their builds without sacrificing any minor slots.

I wouldn't be opposed to requiring a single discipline for leather wearers to wear plate, or plate wearers to wear leather.

 

 


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Destrin said:

You are trying to explain restricting what types of armour people can wear using real world examples of why this makes sense, but gating the access behind magical stones I keep in my pocket? It's highly contradictory to say "this works cause it kind of works like this IRL, but you need magic to make it happen".

As Blazzen states above the cost is already in the armour itself. I am already giving up damage for the mitigation just by wearing it. Why does someone wearing leather as a base have to give up two minor slots sacrificing even more? Unless the mitigations on plate are more than say Sturdy and Overwhelming odds, no one is going to use plate if they wear leather as a base.  They will still get the damage bonus from leather, where if i was wearing plate i would not.

What Destrin wants is more options on how to build any of the classes he plays, not restrictions.  I don't only play one class that has a base armour type of plate so he can wear w/e armour he wants and not have to sacrifice those precious magical stone slots.  I also play Templar, and having those options to go full DMG is awesome.  I also play Ranger, Confessor, Druid, a little Cleric, and most likely Assassin and Frostweaver as well when they are released.  I also want to play Champion, i just haven't gotten around to it yet.

I just don't see how it makes sense allowing two classes out of the eleven pick what ever they want without sacrificing minor slots while the other 9 are required to.  The other 9 classes are going to have to sacrifice more for wanting to equip something different, while two classes have free reign on their builds without sacrificing any minor slots.

I wouldn't be opposed to requiring a single discipline for leather wearers to wear plate, or plate wearers to wear leather.

 

 

I'm using real world examples to help you and others understand where these idea's came from, and why this change actually makes sense. If I run 5 miles every day in plate armor, then I'm going to have no problem running 5 miles in leather armor, I'm going to be as strong or stronger during that whole duration. But if you run 5 miles every day in leather armor, you might have some difficulty running the full 5 miles in plate armor and you are going to be quite a bit weaker (bye bye 10 percent dmg bonus). Real world examples are valid because the game is designed partially from a real world perspective. This is why when you jump in the game, you fall back down to the ground (well most of the time). For you to argue against this is ludicrous. Go watch some dev streams and watch them talk about decisions they make and you'll find very quickly that a lot of design is based on how we perceive how nature works.

From a fantasy perspective this argument has been had a million times. In fantasy a mage does not possess amazing physical prowess. They do not spend their time training with swords or wearing heavy armors. They spend time studying magic from books and using their mind as a weapon. Wearing plate armor would slow them down in combat and be cumbersome. But, every now and then you might have a mage that bucks that trend and spends some time working on physical prowess as well as studying magic. He'll never be as good at magic as a regular mage (damage) and he'll never be as good as highly skilled knight (tank). But he can combine the two and be just as good overall. However since he split his time learning multiple things, he knows less in each of those area's ( -2 minor disciplines).

The 10 percent you get from leather was actually built into your class because your class was designed around an armor type. Its no coincidence that the majority of the pure DPS characters get the armor that grants more damage. A Templar that steps into leather still does not meet or exceed the DPS of a pure dps class that was designed for leather.

You are getting more options. A restriction would be not allowing you to have it at all. But they are allowing you to have it with some trade offs. As i said earlier if you want to argue that 2 minor's are too much, then I can respect that. However you are also moaning and groaning about a system you have even yet to play and see how it feels. Again I think you are having a inferiority complex moment (as we all do at times) and you have this false expectation that you wont be viable and missing out on the fun.

The two out of eleven getting to pick whatever they want comment validates my point earlier about you trying to assign "fairness". We could play that game all day long. Its not fair I have to use pips instead of mana/stamina. Its not fair that I can't close the distance on ranged. Its not fair that you and your guild had trouble with Templar's so you came to the forums and got parry changed. I might add that change has made crowfall worse and exacerbated the problems with ranged ruining good balanced game play... but i digress.

Wait until you actually get to experience this change before you get all up in arms about it. This was a step in the right direction, and its been something we've all been asking for in one form or another for a long time. Maybe at some point they might think of something else you can sacrifice other than minor disciplines. But you have to sacrifice something...

I'm also waiting for you to point out how that previous post's logic was invalid. 

 

Edited by Tark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, blazzen said:

That's not the case anymore. If a single target ability strikes multiple targets (due to the very wide raycast width) then it will take whatever target is closest to your crosshair. 

You can see this in this video towards the end when I'm firing at an angle at the target dummies.

 

nice, that looks a good bit better.  Maybe im just not seeing the video right, but, it seems like the large circle gives priority to closest target if a closer target is in it, while center dot reticle target is ignored.  Maybe nitpicking a little but it would be nice if whatever the center dot was on always got priority. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tark said:

I'm using real world examples to help you and others understand where these idea's came from, and why this change actually makes sense. If I run 5 miles every day in plate armor, then I'm going to have no problem running 5 miles in leather armor, I'm going to be as strong or stronger during that whole duration. But if you run 5 miles every day in leather armor, you might have some difficulty running the full 5 miles in plate armor and you are going to be quite a bit weaker (bye bye 10 percent dmg bonus). Real world examples are valid because the game is designed partially from a real world perspective. This is why when you jump in the game, you fall back down to the ground (well most of the time). For you to argue against this is ludicrous. Go watch some dev streams and watch them talk about decisions they make and you'll find very quickly that a lot of design is based on how we perceive how nature works.

From a fantasy perspective this argument has been had a million times. In fantasy a mage does not possess amazing physical prowess. They do not spend their time training with swords or wearing heavy armors. They spend time studying magic from books and using their mind as a weapon. Wearing plate armor would slow them down in combat and be cumbersome. But, every now and then you might have a mage that bucks that trend and spends some time working on physical prowess as well as studying magic. He'll never be as good at magic as a regular mage (damage) and he'll never be as good as highly skilled knight (tank). But he can combine the two and be just as good overall. However since he split his time learning multiple things, he knows less in each of those area's ( -2 minor disciplines).

The 10 percent you get from leather was actually built into your class because your class was designed around an armor type. Its no coincidence that the majority of the pure DPS characters get the armor that grants more damage. A Templar that steps into leather still does not meet or exceed the DPS of a pure dps class that was designed for leather.

You are getting more options. A restriction would be not allowing you to have it at all. But they are allowing you to have it with some trade offs. As i said earlier if you want to argue that 2 minor's are too much, then I can respect that. However you are also moaning and groaning about a system you have even yet to play and see how it feels. Again I think you are having a inferiority complex moment (as we all do at times) and you have this false expectation that you wont be viable and missing out on the fun.

The two out of eleven getting to pick whatever they want comment validates my point earlier about you trying to assign "fairness". We could play that game all day long. Its not fair I have to use pips instead of mana/stamina. Its not fair that I can't close the distance on ranged. Its not fair that you and your guild had trouble with Templar's so you came to the forums and got parry changed. I might add that change has made crowfall worse and exacerbated the problems with ranged ruining good balanced game play... but i digress.

Wait until you actually get to experience this change before you get all up in arms about it. This was a step in the right direction, and its been something we've all been asking for in one form or another for a long time. Maybe at some point they might think of something else you can sacrifice other than minor disciplines. But you have to sacrifice something...

I'm also waiting for you to point out how that previous post's logic was invalid. 

 

I already told you why, twice, and about as simple as I could but you just keep using the same points. I also don't have to stoop to level of throwing out personal insults to try to get my point across.

As per your PM saying you are going to "Spank my ass so hard" and then decide to just regurgitate what you said in your last few posts and throw in some insults I am sorely disappointed.

My point still stands. As it is described to us, leather wearers will have to sacrifice more to build tanky than plate wearers will have to sacrifice to build for dmg. That just seems off to me.

 

Edited by Destrin

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Tark

they should let parry proc on bows/arrows and other physical ranged attacks tho again...[and excluding 'spells' if they must from that...or tech is even possible]

Edited by Tinnis

caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Destrin said:

I already told you why, twice, and about as simple as I could but you just keep using the same points. I also don't have to stoop to level of throwing out personal insults to try get my point across.

As per your PM saying you are going to "Spank my ass so hard" and then decide to just regurgitate what you said in your last few posts and throw in some insults I am sorely disappointed.

My point still stands. As it is described to us, leather wearers will have to sacrifice more to build tanky than plate wearers will have to sacrifice to build for dmg. That just seems off to me.

 

You didn't directly address any of what I said. These are the words of a back peddler quitting a battle he knows he lost. 


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Tark said:

You didn't directly address any of what I said. These are the words of a back peddler quitting a battle he knows he lost. 

I addressed all of your points in about 2 sentences. And once again trying to throw in some insults.


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tark said:

I'm using real world examples to help you and others understand where these idea's came from, and why this change actually makes sense. If I run 5 miles every day in plate armor, then I'm going to have no problem running 5 miles in leather armor, I'm going to be as strong or stronger during that whole duration. But if you run 5 miles every day in leather armor, you might have some difficulty running the full 5 miles in plate armor and you are going to be quite a bit weaker (bye bye 10 percent dmg bonus). Real world examples are valid because the game is designed partially from a real world perspective.
 

Problem is that is NOT how combat works real world, yes it would be how running specifically works but NOT combat. combat is not revolving about who can put the most force (strenght) into a swing, hitting at the right time and in the right direction is WAY WAY more important than hitting with a large amount of force. This is why swords been so prevalent, if combat was all about force you would have seen WAY WAY more usage of hammers and maces, and almost none of swords, but funnily enough swords are what have been the most widely used type of weapon through the whole of history, because finesse and agility is WAY more important for how much damage you are going to inflict on your opponent than pure force.

Therefore the plate user trying to go into leather armor should not according to reality get anymore extra damage, compared to the extra effective health a leather user trying to equip plate would. But with what was proposed in this stream, the plate user is not sacrificing as much as the leather user.

Funny how your whole argument just turned against you huh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Gummiel said:

Problem is that is NOT how combat works real world, yes it would be how running specifically works but NOT combat. combat is not revolving about who can put the most force (strenght) into a swing, hitting at the right time and in the right direction is WAY WAY more important than hitting with a large amount of force. This is why swords been so prevalent, if combat was all about force you would have seen WAY WAY more usage of hammers and maces, and almost none of swords, but funnily enough swords are what have been the most widely used type of weapon through the whole of history, because finesse and agility is WAY more important for how much damage you are going to inflict on your opponent than pure force.

Therefore the plate user trying to go into leather armor should not according to reality get anymore extra damage, compared to the extra effective health a leather user trying to equip plate would. But with what was proposed in this stream, the plate user is not sacrificing as much as the leather user.

Funny how your whole argument just turned against you huh?

Funny you should mention that, because I've contended all along that most the true DPS classes wear leather armor. I've also said that these classes are more agile and precise and therefore do more damage. Should you put plate armor on you lose that precision and agility and therefore you would do less damage. The comment i assume you are getting snarky about is an exchange between tinnis and I and i think you missed some of the humor. Also I said if you swing harder you hit the target harder, which is true and there is no way you can spin it for that not to be true.

Your second paragraph seems to contradict what you initially said. You said finesse and agility are way more important for how much damage you are going to inflict and then you turned around and said a plate user wearing leather shouldn't get any more damage, even though that person would be lighter on their feet and have more finesse and agility. Also the plate user is sacrificing mitigation, and is still not on par with respect to DPS output that a pure DPS class would be.

Funny how you argued for my point and against yourself. Thanks!


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Tark said:

Funny you should mention that, because I've contended all along that most the true DPS classes wear leather armor. I've also said that these classes are more agile and precise and therefore do more damage. Should you put plate armor on you lose that precision and agility and therefore you would do less damage. The comment i assume you are getting snarky about is an exchange between tinnis and I and i think you missed some of the humor. Also I said if you swing harder you hit the target harder, which is true and there is no way you can spin it for that not to be true.

I never said anything about natural leather classes not being more agile, and the point of the argument the entire time been about the MINOR DISCIPLINES not the dmg/hp tradeoff in each direction anyway

But if you really want to nitpick, that would depend a lot on the weapon, sure hit with a hammer and more force would mean more damage specially against an unarmoured opponent. take a sword though, not necessarily because more force put into the swing also means less precision(assuming we are talking about the same person doing said actions, this means that you will not hit the vital spot needed to be hit for maximum amount of damage to your target, this would really be against both unarmored as well as armored, though the importance of the precision would be even greater against the armoured target

19 minutes ago, Tark said:

Your second paragraph seems to contradict what you initially said. You said finesse and agility are way more important for how much damage you are going to inflict and then you turned around and said a plate user wearing leather shouldn't get any more damage, even though that person would be lighter on their feet and have more finesse and agility.

I think you missed the oh so important word there, that pretty bears the whole paragraph, the little word "compared", again coming back to the whole point of the argument never been about the dmg/hp tradeoff but the minor disciplines

19 minutes ago, Tark said:

Also the plate user is sacrificing mitigation, and is still not on par with respect to DPS output that a pure DPS class would be.

Funny how you argued for my point and against yourself. Thanks!

They actually never stated if a plate user using leather would be on par with a leather user in leather, so we can't really know that for now, but again not even what the whole argument is about

So nope, I never argued against myself, you just fail to realise what we are arguing

Edited by Gummiel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have bested the mighty Tark in an argument. Tell your sons of this day. To answer your question I don’t sign autographs. Sorry. 


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...