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Champion builds.


pamintandrei
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The biggest flaw probably is, that if you keep left klick for attack you can`t use your hotbar skills. So you have to stop attacking and then can use it. Also the time you have to use your combos could be longer, at least thats my opinion.

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I'll share a partial build that is really easy and will be common, IMO. You'll have to decide what fills it out.

Major discs: Destroyer, Juggernaut. Load-out: Leap, Aegis of Salvation (Destroyer), Vicious Stomp, Spinning Backfist, Ult Warrior, Insanity (Destroyer), Toughness (Juggernaut), Movement Cleanse (Juggernaut).

I have several other very viable group builds, but you'll have to figure those out. Destroyer is essentially a must, and Runescarred Gladiator will be good but is broken.

Your biggest bugs: Leap damage is broken and Leap landing is broken. Rend, your best skill, is broken. Neckbreaker, your Ultimate, is bad because people can and will RMB away during the animation, and it takes you FOREVER to stand back up from it. So you knock people down, but you also essentially knock yourself down. It is the worst Ult in the game, IMO, because of how much it misses and because Knockdowns are all over the game without being attached to Ultimate Charge-up times. It should hit for 3x what it hits for now, if everything else is kept the same.

Your biggest nerf was: Vicious Stomp, Spinning Backfist, Massive Cleave and all of their Combos (besides Whirling Pain, which is terri-bad) went from AoE to single target. They are not at all worth the effort and risk of getting into the Range of being able to hit with them.

Your biggest challenge is to rotate your healing abilities (AoS, and Ult Warrior) actively and purposefully. You are very easy to hit.

Your next biggest challenge will be staying in melee range.

Your next biggest challenge will be doing enough damage to kill anyone.

Champions are NOT a good solo class. I can live/escape 1v1, but I cannot kill anyone. Really, Champion Damage is not good enough (and being nerfed to single target DPS in an AoE heavy game) to compensate for all the things we are bad at. Should play a Templar or Ranger.

 

Edited by McTan
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On 12/23/2017 at 10:53 PM, McTan said:

...

Champions are NOT a good solo class. I can live/escape 1v1, but I cannot kill anyone. Really, Champion Damage is not good enough (and being nerfed to single target DPS in an AoE heavy game) to compensate for all the things we are bad at. Should play a Templar or Ranger.

 

I have no doubt this is true.  I just started back testing so I know nothing, but will say that centaur Champion seems good on paper with a lot of mobility, and if you added arcane archer you could have a highly mobile character with a decent amount of engagement options.  If ACE buffs him a bit to make up for his weaknesses, we could have a very fun and pretty versatile offensive warrior type

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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34 minutes ago, Regulus said:

I have no doubt this is true.  I just started back testing so I know nothing, but will say that centaur Champion seems good on paper with a lot of mobility, and if you added arcane archer you could have a highly mobile character with a decent amount of engagement options.  If ACE buffs him a bit to make up for his weaknesses, we could have a very fun and pretty versatile offensive warrior type

I have some really fun builds, that I really like. I think the Champion Base Kit is very close to being good. Destroyer makes such a big difference though, I would really like to see Aegis of Salvation pushed to the Base Class Kit.  OR they could give back Strength of the Mountain. What a great ability.

Yeah AA is nice for the root.

It may be that ACE is imagining Champions as part of a group, and not solo-able. I think that is absolutely fine, but they have not vocalized that position really.

Champ/Cleric is a nice combo. Not gunna kill anyone though. Champ DPS is too low.

 

Edited by McTan
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13 hours ago, McTan said:

It may be that ACE is imagining Champions as part of a group, and not solo-able. I think that is absolutely fine, but they have not vocalized that position really.

ACE is imagining most classes as group players. 

But champ is pretty solid right now aside from all the bugs that plague them at the moment. I can pretty much 1 shot most people in basic armor if I land my combo. Should be able to kill people in 1v1s, on top of your sustain and auto crits. 

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7 hours ago, Jjohnsin said:

ACE is imagining most classes as group players. 

But champ is pretty solid right now aside from all the bugs that plague them at the moment. I can pretty much 1 shot most people in basic armor if I land my combo. Should be able to kill people in 1v1s, on top of your sustain and auto crits. 

I am more than happy to hear counter arguments, so ACE gets a good collection of views, but I do not see your post as accurate (happy to be shown that I am wrong).

You cannot 1 shot anyone, even "pretty much". The lowest HP would be, what, 4.5k? Even if they literally stand still and use no skills, you cannot hit for that much in less than 5-6 shots, even with a non-basic weapon and crits.

Already in Ultimate Warrior 2 (affecting your Rage regen possibilities, too, for DPS sustain), Vicious Stomp->Rend (maybe 1.5k total), Massive Cleave (maybe 1k), Neckbreaker (maybe 1.25k). Still did not get to 4.5k.

And if players are not dodging your attacks, they are awful.

I'll be very impressed if I see videos of your champion dominance!

Edit, Note to ACE: If even Vicious Stomp, Disarming Shout, Rend and Kick Sand were returned to AoE up to 5 people, that would go a long way toward making Champions an interesting Class. And that leaves LMB, Spinning Backfist, and Massive Cleave as Single Target.

Edited by McTan
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24 minutes ago, McTan said:

I am more than happy to hear counter arguments, so ACE gets a good collection of views, but I do not see your post as accurate (happy to be shown that I am wrong).

You cannot 1 shot anyone, even "pretty much". The lowest HP would be, what, 4.5k? Even if they literally stand still and use no skills, you cannot hit for that much in less than 5-6 shots, even with a non-basic weapon and crits.

Already in Ultimate Warrior 2 (affecting your Rage regen possibilities, too, for DPS sustain), Vicious Stomp->Rend (maybe 1.5k total), Massive Cleave (maybe 1k), Neckbreaker (maybe 1.25k). Still did not get to 4.5k.

And if players are not dodging your attacks, they are awful.

I'll be very impressed if I see videos of your champion dominance!

Edit, Note to ACE: If even Vicious Stomp, Disarming Shout, Rend and Kick Sand were returned to AoE up to 5 people, that would go a long way toward making Champions an interesting Class. And that leaves LMB, Spinning Backfist, and Massive Cleave as Single Target.

I got my massive cleave to hit for 2.2k, plus 350-450 hits on whirlwind, plus a 1.3k C power. Quick maths puts that output to about 6800. Realistically I'd be hitting for like closer to 5000 in the combo but still really nice damage output solo buffed. I never use Rend, too buggy. 

Getting someone in a C power and hurlbat makes it really hard to run away actually, unless its wood-elf/nethari. 

And iirc at least massive cleave and whirlwind are AoE still. At least they can AoE the target dummies, but there are only 3 of them so idk? 

I'm by far not dominant at champion lol. just theorycraft builds for fun and this one seems to be able to output a large amount of damage...assuming you can connect with it of course! I'll look for some clips of mine!

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42 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

I got my massive cleave to hit for 2.2k, plus 350-450 hits on whirlwind, plus a 1.3k C power. Quick maths puts that output to about 6800. Realistically I'd be hitting for like closer to 5000 in the combo but still really nice damage output solo buffed. I never use Rend, too buggy. 

Getting someone in a C power and hurlbat makes it really hard to run away actually, unless its wood-elf/nethari. 

And iirc at least massive cleave and whirlwind are AoE still. At least they can AoE the target dummies, but there are only 3 of them so idk? 

I'm by far not dominant at champion lol. just theorycraft builds for fun and this one seems to be able to output a large amount of damage...assuming you can connect with it of course! I'll look for some clips of mine!

I think the "assuming you can connect with it" is just a huge point. Effective DPS, not theoretical DPS, is the end-all for me. If you hit someone with more than one whirlwind spin, that's pretty bad on their part (plus it's inaccurate to call a full Whirlwind "one hit", it's DPS is not great on single target). Honestly, if a player gets hit by a Champ Ultimate, that's pretty bad too.

Even so, I'd be impressed to see those theoretical DPS numbers. What buffs are you talking about? I have not gotten anywhere close to massive cleave 2.2k. On boars - where I do most of my testing, with one step above weapon and druid beam, I get crits of about 1.1k-1.2k.

Edited by McTan
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36 minutes ago, McTan said:

I think the "assuming you can connect with it" is just a huge point. Effective DPS, not theoretical DPS, is the end-all for me. If you hit someone with more than one whirlwind spin, that's pretty bad on their part (plus it's inaccurate to call a full Whirlwind "one hit", it's DPS is not great on single target). Honestly, if a player gets hit by a Champ Ultimate, that's pretty bad too.

Even so, I'd be impressed to see those theoretical DPS numbers. What buffs are you talking about? I have not gotten anywhere close to massive cleave 2.2k. On boars - where I do most of my testing, with one step above weapon and druid beam, I get crits of about 1.1k-1.2k.

Well in a group setting it is definitely not hard to hit your full combo, including every proc of Whirlwind. I also play centaur which has a faster C animation than half-giant surprisingly. Just have someone run Arcane Archer and you have a free C power on as many people as are rooted. 

Self buffs include; furious, centaur armor break, UW2, troubadour debuff, resolution when surrounded by 3 or more people, nothing to lose. Those come out to like; 15%, 20%, 20%, 15%, and 15%.  

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21 hours ago, Jjohnsin said:

Well in a group setting it is definitely not hard to hit your full combo, including every proc of Whirlwind. I also play centaur which has a faster C animation than half-giant surprisingly. Just have someone run Arcane Archer and you have a free C power on as many people as are rooted. 

Self buffs include; furious, centaur armor break, UW2, troubadour debuff, resolution when surrounded by 3 or more people, nothing to lose. Those come out to like; 15%, 20%, 20%, 15%, and 15%.  

Indeed. I have made a similar group build. You are using up some serious Slots there both active and passive. And needing to get the armor break on, too. And furious is underpowered, I'd love to see it trigger at 90% instead of 100%.

I do not consider procs of Whirlwind to really be a single combo chain, though. Comparably, VS-Rend is 3-e and MC-Whirlwind is 4-4-(4-4-4-4) time-wise and DPS-wise.

And I am going to stand by my claim that getting hit by full Whirlwind is really quite bad. You should either be knocked down, or people should RMB dodge or "C" invuln, or otherwise get away from your slow moving, spinning self. You should also be getting hit quite hard as you spin around.

I personally play Mino, I like the option of Bullrush.

What do you think about the "Downtime" on our Ultimate, that knocks other people down, but also effectively knocks us down as well. That is, the recovery time to next hit is quite long.

Note: I want to also point out that this group v group scenario, with group members having certain Disciplines and using certain powers in order for you to land things, where you are also using set-ups (armor break) and in certain circumstance (furious proc, troub timing and resolution proc) is a far-cry from the earlier discussion about being able to 1v1 people. Given that you are not casting Aegis of Salvation (and likely do not have room for Insanity HP buff [if you are even running Destroyer] or Jugg Toughness if that is your second major besides Troub), and do not get any self-heal off from activating UW, you better be getting insane heals. I am also skeptical about your Rage, now, with the extra powers and already being in UW2.

Edited by McTan
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2 hours ago, McTan said:

I do not consider procs of Whirlwind to really be a single combo chain, though. Comparably, VS-Rend is 3-e and MC-Whirlwind is 4-4-(4-4-4-4) time-wise and DPS-wise.

I mean ok. Regardless it doesn't change the fact it's not hard to hit people with. Hurlbat slow itself is enough to stop people from getting away unless it's wood elf or nethari. You also don't need to channel the whole whirlwind, you can stop early to hurlbat again and hit them with a second massive cleave.

In terms of slots, I have plenty of space for anything I need. Leap, centaur racial, cleave, hurlbat are the only "offensive" abilities you really need. Good timing in UW is usually plenty of sustain/iframe to stay alive thru enemy burst. Especially in 1v1 so no need for aegis or juggernaut buff imo. 

 

2 hours ago, McTan said:

What do you think about the "Downtime" on our Ultimate, that knocks other people down, but also effectively knocks us down as well. That is, the recovery time to next hit is quite long.

It's annoying but not game changing. It hits hard and you have plenty of time to get a guaranteed hit on your next ability which all you really need. 

 

2 hours ago, McTan said:

Note: I want to also point out that this group v group scenario, with group members having certain Disciplines and using certain powers in order for you to land things, where you are also using set-ups (armor break) and in certain circumstance (furious proc, troub timing and resolution proc) is a far-cry from the earlier discussion about being able to 1v1 people. Given that you are not casting Aegis of Salvation (and likely do not have room for Insanity HP buff [if you are even running Destroyer] or Jugg Toughness if that is your second major besides Troub), and do not get any self-heal off from activating UW, you better be getting insane heals. I am also skeptical about your Rage, now, with the extra powers and already being in UW2.

Rage isn't really an issue because you're only using cleave and hurlbat and the occasional other ability if you want on your bar. You can't use much because that's how you keep furious proc'd at almost all times. And like I said earlier...UW heal and iframe are plenty of sustain and defense. In group fights you don't need much sustain anyways because you just wait for a root or knight C or w/e...leap in and drop your C and cleave. You're very in and out of the fight 

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1 hour ago, Jjohnsin said:

Rage isn't really an issue because you're only using cleave and hurlbat and the occasional other ability if you want on your bar. You can't use much because that's how you keep furious proc'd at almost all times. And like I said earlier...UW heal and iframe are plenty of sustain and defense. In group fights you don't need much sustain anyways because you just wait for a root or knight C or w/e...leap in and drop your C and cleave. You're very in and out of the fight 

I think when Rend is fixed it may replace Cleave/WW on your bar. The dominance hit for Rend is quite high, and you also get the option for a suppress (which should be returned to its AoE status).

I know I am nit-picking our conversation, but if you are already in UW2 to get the Damage output you're speaking of, then you have lost the Sustain from UW triggering.

And yes, I love the idea of the Champion as sort of a mobile, melee, glass cannon. I've been a huge supporter of the concept since they were released, and I just continue to push for making that viable.

In most group-builds, which is what what I was originally talking about a few posts ago (more solo builds), I think not taking Destroyer is very viable. I would, however, be really interested in viable solo builds without Destroyer.

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On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 4:49 PM, Jjohnsin said:

I got my massive cleave to hit for 2.2k, plus 350-450 hits on whirlwind, plus a 1.3k C power. Quick maths puts that output to about 6800. Realistically I'd be hitting for like closer to 5000 in the combo but still really nice damage output solo buffed. I never use Rend, too buggy. 

Getting someone in a C power and hurlbat makes it really hard to run away actually, unless its wood-elf/nethari. 

And iirc at least massive cleave and whirlwind are AoE still. At least they can AoE the target dummies, but there are only 3 of them so idk? 

I'm by far not dominant at champion lol. just theorycraft builds for fun and this one seems to be able to output a large amount of damage...assuming you can connect with it of course! I'll look for some clips of mine!

EK target dummies don't count buddie. Looking forward to seeing those clips of you dropping someone in a real fight with a rotation of 6,800 damage in 5.3+ Pre Alpha. 

Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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On 12/24/2017 at 1:53 AM, McTan said:

Neckbreaker, your Ultimate, is bad because people can and will RMB away during the animation, and it takes you FOREVER to stand back up from it.

Try it on a Centaur. ;) Uses one of the old Legionnaire animations and is quite badass. 

Centaur best Champion IMO. That 20% armor break, plus the group attack power buff, plus trailmaster out of combat....better than the MIno stun immunity and Berserk, IMO. 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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2 hours ago, blazzen said:

Try it on a Centaur. ;) Uses one of the old Legionnaire animations and is quite badass. 

Centaur best Champion IMO. That 20% armor break, plus the group attack power buff, plus trailmaster out of combat....better than the MIno stun immunity and Berserk, IMO. 

does the wild charge still apply a small physics push to targets hit like legio power did [great for interupting combos!]

does rear kick work and is it still a AoE knock BACK and knock DOWN and damage? [doubt the true "positional tech" in yet pre assassin though but did previously proc without it]

and can you pointlessly wear two sets of boots yet either? :)


mino might still be fun if bull rush still dragged people along with you >:)

Edited by Tinnis
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https://malekai.org/disciplines/runescarred-gladiator

once it will be fixed and buffed (1 core things - Nothing to Lose so it will add more crit damage/you can activate it) - I think champ can be some really scare person

using Runecarve Flesh + 100% crit from dominating he can do some very huge and sudden damage output

for example, 1k + some crits for 500+

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: rangefall

Discord makkon#8550

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 1/3/2018 at 7:01 PM, makkon said:

https://malekai.org/disciplines/runescarred-gladiator

once it will be fixed and buffed (1 core things - Nothing to Lose so it will add more crit damage/you can activate it) - I think champ can be some really scare person

using Runecarve Flesh + 100% crit from dominating he can do some very huge and sudden damage output

for example, 1k + some crits for 500+

Yeah I can't wait to have this one fixed to see how it feels. Nothing to Lose did get ninja-nerfed in half, though. In fact, all three of those powers did, despite the discipline not working.

Edited by McTan
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  • 3 weeks later...
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