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ACE_JackalBark

Divine Sacrifice - Official Discussion Thread

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And reading @Dorynnos thread made me think that perhaps quests could be implemented through the gods. Every god could handle some small requests that could reward extra favor. This could be huge in the gods reach and the faction ruleset where each players has a clear affiliation.

It could go from killing players that follow a opposing god or just incentivizing players to complete some objectives like conquering a specific POI. Could even be a global quest where every god asks for the same thing and all players are then forced to fight it out to see which god completes the quest.

And since the above examples were not that interesting to crafters/gatherers let me suggest that we apply some of the classical quests we see in other games. Sacrifice X items because reasons which basically would be the craft X items or the gather X resources of CF.

Could probably be another way to fill the moment-to-moment thing.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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I am thinking this is fine as a general time and material sink and activity...   it is the base use of relics I hope

I also hope that relics have other uses like the "boons" of shadowbane that gave 1 hour buffs.  In fact, having "collectable" resource pieces that have multiple uses makes choices matter...   you found a golden goblet thingy in a mysterious chest of an abandoned village full of zombies...   you can sacrifice it for a stat gain on your vessel OR you can use it to activate a 1 hour 3% Crit Chance buff.   

The other big piece of the loop is the disc hunting that was a very active part of the loop in Shadowbane.  In CF you will be Thrall hunting for the specific Thralls required for the discs in your "planned" build with alternates based on what you actually find.  I would hope most of the thralls are found in random spots rather than specific so that we don't have the lock down situation on a powerful disc thrall like we had with commander.   Don't get me wrong, the fights for commander were some of the funnest small scale pvp I have ever had, but with the timing and location a known thing, it set up a "too" predictable situation.   I would rather see crates, barrels, piles of garbage etc in POI areas that are spread out and have some randomness to their spawn and loot tables...  Of course I want this for Harvesting nodes too...   I think you should hunt for or have tracking skills that assist both resource harvesting and relic/thrall "collecting" that helps you locate these item chests.   

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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This is the first time I think I'm skeptical of one of ACE's design concepts.  There are some interesting ideas here but they seem focused on fixing theoretical rather than actual issues.

Adding a resource sink may be a good thing but are we sure we need a new system for that?  I think more attention should be put on the harvesting, crafting and degradation systems first and see if they can be tweaked or amended to find the right balance.

Do we need an additional system for character development?  I feel like attribute allocation has been tacked on as a means of legitimizing the sacrifice system.  And the steep curve means that the system will only be applicable during a narrow window.  What's the incentive for players to sacrifice after the "weekend" they've spent maxxing out their vessel?

I'm also worried about ACE underestimating the value of macro-goals.  To me, that's a little like saying "this game needs to be more like WoW".  The macro goals are /why/ I supported Crowfall and look forward to playing it.  They're why I plan to log on.  I didn't play Ark: Survival Evolved to level up my engrams, I played it to construct bases and ride dinosaurs.  I don't play GW2's WvW to accumulate "pips" but because I enjoy the experience.  My motivation is objective rather than advancement oriented.

Having said all that, I'm not /against/ the sacrifice system.  I just think it needs some rethinking.  The issue of having a reason for players to hang around after they've logged on is legitimate.  The more a player stays logged on, the more likely they'll participate in group activities.  Other MMOs address this with "daily" achievements.

One alternative to the existing sacrifice system might be to grant vessels a timed buff rather than a permanent bump.  Something like 24 hours.  Maybe there's an advanced level of buff potency for vessels who sacrifice consistently to the same deity.  That way casual players could easily earn a sense of achievement without creating a gap with veteran players, while veteran players still have incentive to sacrifice in the long term.

Edited by Bashar

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8 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

Well, like i said before they could create a option to lvl up without offering to the gods. I kinda like the idea of a crow that refuses to work to the gods and just flip them the bird. They could make it so that this generates hate from all gods. I would consider going that route just because i dont really like being a pawn.

It is sligthly different from the Lore but i think the DEVs could come up with a reason to explain/implement this. It would at least be another option for players.

I mean, yes, they absolutely COULD, and that actually sounds hilarious and I approve. But my point was really that people are going to be upset no matter what the devs do, and no one should expect them to change the game for them. Everything about this game is inherently blasphemous - the core premise is that we are participating in a war to become the new king of the gods. I don't see why sacrificial altars are where someone can draw a line, and even if they have a perfectly reasonable justification somehow, that doesn't mean anything about the game is owed to them.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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8 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

I will say that that experience curve sounds atrocious to me. If i got it right the first 40-50 levels can be reached in 2 days, the next 5 takes one day but the final 5 takes 1 to 3 weeks? I imagine with that those rates anyone below 40 was considered trash? Didnt that make those 40 levels kinda void? You might as well consider 40 as lvl 0 and 40-60 as lvl 1 to 20.

That is my problem with fast lvling. If you can do it too fast it just kinda makes them less rewarding. Just like said above where 40 lvls just reach the bare minimum.

The thing about leveling in Shadowbane is that it really wasn't all that important. I mean, if you were level 1 and ran into a level 50, they were gonna kick your face in, but generally speaking they were gonna be in the areas populated mostly by level 50s because that's where the loot that was relevant to them would be, and where the pvp that was relevant to them would be. But the real issue was that at level 1, you weren't going to have access to a toolkit that would let you fight back or flee - you were just a punching bag.

If you're level 40 and you run into someone who's level 60, you are not just a punching bag. You've probably got a solid half of your kit working, though your skills are probably not maxed yet and you probably don't have very good gear. But the shallow power curve and diminishing returns meant that the difference between 1 and 20 is bigger than the difference between 20 and 40 which is bigger than the difference between 40 and 60. The result is that, while someone at level 60 does have a marked advantage over someone who is lower level, it is NOT insurmountable.

I picked the game up toward the end of its life cycle, when the entire leveling system had basically been uncapped - the "level cap" was 70, but you could actually level past that, with the diminishing returns not entirely negating the point of doing so until around level 75. But the thing was, the difference between 60 and 75 was small enough that you didn't have to grind monsters to pass level 60, because PvP awarded experience and you were strong enough to go out alone no later than 60. Once you hit that point, which you could easily knock out in a day at turtles by the last DLC, you could suit up and go PvP, and kill players for the last 15 levels. Since the game still had a pretty big population and a lot of active guilds and something was happening all the time, this meant it was really easy to get into the endgame content, which made it really easy to experiment with new builds, which made the game pretty much endlessly fun.

It's hard to explain how well this worked to someone who never played Shadowbane, but a shallow power curve in a game with as much character customization as Shadowbane is an extremely effective system. It's all about the endgame, after all, so the sooner you can get your feet wet, the sooner you'll find the fun.

Edited by goose
SMALLER = BIGGER words are hard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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I hope every gathering profession gets something like the deer hearts you described.  I'd hate for us to have a system that's ostensibly about allowing us to progress while other players are offline, but gatherers are encouraged to feed their materials to an offline crafter instead of sacrificing them.

Additionally, the more I think about it, the more uncertain I am that making us run back to the temple to swap vessels is all that good for the game.  The end result is that nobody swaps vessels all that often and then this system becomes more or less meaningless.  Walking an in-inventory vessel to your beachhead, and then walking an in-inventory vessel (with disciplines!) back is just about the easiest way to lose a few dozen hours of labor that I can think of, and the benefit of doing so is really questionable so people just won't do it.  The idea of having multiple vessels prepped for different purposes is a pipe dream under this system.  Let us swap at a dragon statue with a long cast time.  Maybe have the vessel take a durability hit when we do.

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54 minutes ago, Bashar said:

What's the incentive for players to sacrifice after the "weekend" they've spent maxxing out their vessel?

You will have more than one vessel, even for the same build because of quality improvements as the crafter's get better.   

Also when JTodd talks about a weekend to max out, he is most likely referring to "in the dregs and with at least decent training as far as resource sacrifice...   At launch you aren't going to level your starting vessel much past where it gets with grey and white quality sacrifices, you won't be finding green-blue-purple things to sacrifice that early on...   When you get your green crafted vessel, you start over but can probably get up to where your starter vessel was at pretty fast and work towards maxing iy out... then blue vessel, etc...   lots of us will have upwards of 3 vessels per account...  let alone working on gear and discs for all of these vessels, having different pieces of the build progression to work on at different times and to break up doing the same thing (grind) this is a good simple system.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Also remember that vessels wear out and eventually get destroyed like any other piece of gear.  You can sacrifice a ton of treasures to max out the stats on one, but once it's gone you're going have to start over again.  Granted certain hard core gamers will certainly have maxed out vessels most of the time if they have a strong way of obtaining stuff to sacrifice (such as a strong guild backing them) but in general I think it will balance out for most players.

I'm personally just happy to have something to do with the junk I'll inevitably collect or gear I craft that comes out with crap stats.

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Your example has the player name Sir Siracha IV of the Rooster Peninsula. 

You had better fix your invite, trade and other mechanics because that name would be ridiculous to have to type to interact with that player. 

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It's good--gives me/us something to do/work towards during down time.  Also it ties into the lore and should make the game feel more alive.  This (or something like it) will make CF a better game for a lot of people.  


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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On 12/21/2017 at 11:35 PM, goose said:

As to why it's good to have small things for people to do when they log on, I feel like they explained that bit perfectly in the post, so I'm a bit confused at why anybody is confused about that...

I have no issue with smaller time sinks, but I hope there are actual larger activities to do on a regular basis that far overshadow grinding for vertical stat gains. So far we have some rough outlines and alpha quality systems, hopefully we get to see or at least get updated on where the larger stuff is at.

Going back to Jan 2015 I believe, "I don't want to kill more rats, fill another experience bar or collect another meaningless badge." - ACE

This new system is just that imo. Dailies and other rewards for players logging in and doing whatever obviously help games but there still needs to be a "Game" to do this stuff in.

As to the comparisons between SB, I didn't play enough to remember, but this system doesn't seem to work similar when considering all the other CF systems and how people go about building a character. Passive training depending on % of total character potential/power throws a wrench in the grind it out over a weekend or whatever character building model. At least if talking full potential. Can't have a super shallow power curve and +X STR gained over a weekend or month make too much of a difference or makes it not super shallow... 

Edited by APE

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I like the idea.  By making the advancement curve shallow it becomes an optional edge that you don't have to have but helps.  A possible alternative would be to turn this into a buff system instead.  For example, you sacrifice x amount of loot and receive the choice of one out of a couple different 24 hour buffs (bonus crit chance, non-combat movement speed, etc) that scale on the amount sacrificed.  This would give it replayability and an option for dynamic customization.


Speed above all else. Mobility above all else. Utter ruthlessness.

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5 hours ago, APE said:

I have no issue with smaller time sinks, but I hope there are actual larger activities to do on a regular basis that far overshadow grinding for vertical stat gains. So far we have some rough outlines and alpha quality systems, hopefully we get to see or at least get updated on where the larger stuff is at.

Going back to Jan 2015 I believe, "I don't want to kill more rats, fill another experience bar or collect another meaningless badge." - ACE

This new system is just that imo. Dailies and other rewards for players logging in and doing whatever obviously help games but there still needs to be a "Game" to do this stuff in.

As to the comparisons between SB, I didn't play enough to remember, but this system doesn't seem to work similar when considering all the other CF systems and how people go about building a character. Passive training depending on % of total character potential/power throws a wrench in the grind it out over a weekend or whatever character building model. At least if talking full potential. Can't have a super shallow power curve and +X STR gained over a weekend or month make too much of a difference or makes it not super shallow... 

A long time ago a very wise man was sure this game would eventually have these kinds of quests, many people argued, but some people are just much better at projecting how a game needs to tie together.  

In an ideal world you would have an mmorpg that had such a bustling and dynamic world that you could choose from a multitude of reasons to play.  CF lacks the PvE framework to build for such a game and their PvP systems as it stands now are shallow and they do in fact need these kinds of carrots for people to have something to do on a small scale.  


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Sweet, shallow power curve fits nicely into the "run around naked killing people with a rusty sword" concept.  Get a gang of friends together each night.  Go out and kill people foraging and collecting stuff, so that you do not have to.  When they kill you all they get is the worthless socks that we were wearing.  If you dont like getting repeatedly killed every night, pay for protection.


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9 hours ago, APE said:

I have no issue with smaller time sinks, but I hope there are actual larger activities to do on a regular basis that far overshadow grinding for vertical stat gains. So far we have some rough outlines and alpha quality systems, hopefully we get to see or at least get updated on where the larger stuff is at.

Going back to Jan 2015 I believe, "I don't want to kill more rats, fill another experience bar or collect another meaningless badge." - ACE

This new system is just that imo. Dailies and other rewards for players logging in and doing whatever obviously help games but there still needs to be a "Game" to do this stuff in.

As to the comparisons between SB, I didn't play enough to remember, but this system doesn't seem to work similar when considering all the other CF systems and how people go about building a character. Passive training depending on % of total character potential/power throws a wrench in the grind it out over a weekend or whatever character building model. At least if talking full potential. Can't have a super shallow power curve and +X STR gained over a weekend or month make too much of a difference or makes it not super shallow... 

To me, it sounds more like the trainer NPCs from Shadowbane than quest-givers. You probably remember (or will when I mention them) that you had to hunt down the trainers for skill lines and give them exponentially larger amounts of gold to rank up your skills. There were no quests, but there were lots of things you could murderize to farm you some coins, and that plus the random loot drops and experience was more than enough incentive to wander around hostile territory when all your friends were asleep.

I see your point - I just disagree with it. Time will tell which of us winds up being correct.

Edit: honestly, my biggest unanswered question is "how will currency work?" There have been a few ideas thrown around vis a vis coins etc over the years, but as of right now, I still don't know how I'm going to pay a shopkeeper for something I want. If it works on a barter and trade system, then automating it is going to be a nightmare. Having a way for the value of different things to be normalized across all the different styles of play will, I think, be a major factor in whether or not these kinds of activities end up feeling rewarding.

Also, if you're actively disincentivized from sacrificing harvesting materials, but crafted gear is worth more, then this won't really work for EVERYBODY, since people who spend all their time harvesting won't really be able to interact with the sacrifice system without finding a way to convert the yield of their chosen play style into something that works with the sacrifice system.

It's not a perfect solution, but it's certainly A solution, and I think it's a good first step and a system I'd like to see incremented on.

I really hope that explanation made sense - I'm pretty sleep deprived.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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